Player Discussion Andreas Athanasiou

[Jesus Take the Wheel]

Prior to this season, Athansiou and RNH had basically the same goals per game for the previous 3 years.

0.3 GPG. That is not a "3rd line production", that's easily above 23 goals in a 82 game season.

Is RNH a third line player too?

I'm not making any call on this player until

1.) I see him playing "comfortable" here, his regular game and gets over the jitters of being in a new situation with radically different expectations. Right now he looks very tight and nervous because he doesn't want to make a mistake.

2.) I see THAT version of him playing with McDavid or Draisaitl for 15-20 games.

Then you can make a judgement. Before that you're just blowing smoke out of your ass, like judging Ryan Strome's offensive production when he was saddled on the 3rd line and was on pace for an 8 point season as a result.

Some people making sweeping indictments on a player that's played 1 1/2 game total with McDavid in which he tallied 2 points and 0 time with Draisaitl or RNH. Kassian was garbage before being put with McDavid and Draisaitl on pace for a 6 goal season, he got it going eventually with them.

I don't get the Strome comment, were the Oilers supposed to move McDavid to the wing and make Strome our 1C?

Its not even AA's production that are the big deal, its the fact he is horrendous at simple things like forechecking which is just based on his effort level on a nightly basis

 

[Coffey]

 

[CycloneSweep]

Like who?

Who are these "bottom six players that score 30 goals in a season but are on the 3rd line"?

There's maybe like a tiny handful players like that in the NHL.

It's not like Alex Chiasson and Zack Kassian (this guy routinely whiffs on getting the puck out of his zone like 2-3 times a game causing a tire fire for our D) and Sam Gagner were defensive stalwarts yet they've all gotten extended play time in the top 6.

Athansiou has played 1 and half game total in our top six and had two points in that time, that's a fact.
2/3 points that Ennis has (who keeps getting top six time) are from Athansiou directly. His goal is set up by Athanisou and 1/2 assists are from Athansiou scoring a goal that got the Oilers a point in Anaheim.

If Kassian, Gagner, Chiasson, Ennis can be given chance after chance with McDavid and have little production to show for it, AA should be given another try with McDavid at least. He really should be tried with Draisaitl as that's likely the most ideal candidate for him but line politics becomes a thing.

As I pointed out above I have no issue trying AA in the top 6. Him and Draisaitl would not be a good duo, I could see him and McDavid working, but as I also mentioned before, dude has zero consistency in his game so he would be revolved out like everyone else and put back in when someone else stops working.

We need a legit top 6 guy to play with McDavid. Draisaitl has 2, McDavid needs at least one. AA is fine, but isn't a guy you bank on having constant success there, we need a guy who can.

Also AA scored 30 goals in an outlier year he is more to a 20ish goal guy

Edit: Third line guys who have scored 19+ goals recently..(or on pace this year)

Chiasson, Cizikas, Hyman, Coleman, Gourde, Virtanen, Eller, Armia, Kassian, Hintz, Debrusk, Connolly, Gurianov, Acciari just to name a few.

 

[Soundwave]

As I pointed out above I have no issue trying AA in the top 6. Him and Draisaitl would not be a good duo, I could see him and McDavid working, but as I also mentioned before, dude has zero consistency in his game so he would be revolved out like everyone else and put back in when someone else stops working.

We need a legit top 6 guy to play with McDavid. Draisaitl has 2, McDavid needs at least one. AA is fine, but isn't a guy you bank on having constant success there, we need a guy who can

How do you know this if you never try it?

Draisaitl has played very well with speed based players in the past like Hall and McDavid.

We don't even know if he can even play with McDavid.

The FACT is he played exactly 1 game + 1/2 game with McDavid. He had 2 points in that time.

0.3 GPG for three previous seasons is not "zero consistency" either. The only Oilers that are well above 0.3 GPG the previous three years are Draisaitl and McDavid and that's it.

I think Tipp needs to stop with the revolving door around McDavid. Your GM got you this guy, let him have some time. If he bobbles a puck or makes a mistake, OK fine, the world is not ending. It's not like Ennis is producing any more with like 5x more playing time with McDavid and Draisaitl.

 

[Jesus Take the Wheel]

I think Tipp needs to stop with the revolving door around McDavid. Your GM got you this guy, let him have some time. If he bobbles a puck or makes a mistake, OK fine, the world is not ending. It's not like Ennis is producing any more with like 5x more playing time with McDavid and Draisaitl.

Ennis forechecks and pressures the oppositions defense.. AA doesn't thats why one is getting opportunities and the other isn't

 

[Soundwave]

Ennis forechecks and pressures the oppositions defense.. AA doesn't thats why one is getting opportunities and the other isn't

Yet he has 1 whopping more point than AA while being given a ton more playing time with those players.

This guy hasn't scored a single goal with McDavid or Draisaitl in like 7 games now despite being put with them constantly.

AA should be given a look with McDavid at least.

Not being able to produce in the Oilers bottom six is hardly an indictment of anything. Kassian was on pace for a 6 goal season in the bottom 6, Strome was on pace for 8 points total in the same role, Nugent Hopkins saw his production rate tank playing with bottom 6 players, it took Archibald a long time to get going down there.

 

[CycloneSweep]

How do you know this if you never try it?

Draisaitl has played very well with speed based players in the past like Hall and McDavid.

We don't even know if he can even play with McDavid.

The FACT is he played exactly 1 game + 1/2 game with McDavid. He had 2 points in that time.

0.3 GPG for three previous seasons is not "zero consistency" either. The only Oilers that are well above 0.3 GPG the previous three years are Draisaitl and McDavid and that's it.

I think Tipp needs to stop with the revolving door around McDavid. Your GM got you this guy, let him have some time. If he bobbles a puck or makes a mistake, OK fine, the world is not ending. It's not like Ennis is producing any more with like 5x more playing time with McDavid and Draisaitl.

Im not saying don't give him a chance.

My point is Draisaitl works well with smart, players period. Speedsters or not. AA is not a smart player, he is fast and skilled but isn't the smartest player which is why I think he won't work there. I also think with how we are doing right now breaking apart the only good line in hopes AA works is a bad idea at this point but you never know.

My point is just because he has put up 20ish goals doesn't make him a top 6 player. Does he have the most potential out of the guys we have to score like that? Yes. Should he be a guy who is guaranteed top 6 minutes as a fixture there? No. Should we in the off season find a legit top 6 guy (a guy who can do more than score goals)? Absolutely.

I do forget that you literally seem to only care about goals what it comes to judging players.

We will have to agree to disagree

Also, there is actually a good chunk of players who are third liners who can put up around 20 goals a year...they also tend to bring more than that to a lineup too

 

[Soundwave]

Im not saying don't give him a chance.

My point is Draisaitl works well with smart, players period. Speedsters or not. AA is not a smart player, he is fast and skilled but isn't the smartest player which is why I think he won't work there. I also think with how we are doing right now breaking apart the only good line in hopes AA works is a bad idea at this point but you never know.

My point is just because he has put up 20ish goals doesn't make him a top 6 player. Does he have the most potential out of the guys we have to score like that? Yes. Should he be a guy who is guaranteed top 6 minutes as a fixture there? No. Should we in the off season find a legit top 6 guy (a guy who can do more than score goals)? Absolutely.

I do forget that you literally seem to only care about goals what it comes to judging players.

We will have to agree to disagree

Also, there is actually a good chunk of players who are third liners who can put up around 20 goals a year...they also tend to bring more than that to a lineup too

Hall and Kassian are not exactly "high IQ" players either, yet Draisaitl played well with them. And he struggled initially in times when he would play with Nugent Hopkins. The fact is you don't know, you don't have the foggiest idea of what would happen.

0.3 GPG players are top 6 players virtually on any team. That list you made had maybe one guy that's scored 0.3 GPG in the last 3 seasons.

GOALS win hockey games last time I checked, they're not some outlier metric that's a "nice to have". They are the pivotal point of playing the freaking game.

 

[Jesus Take the Wheel]

Yet he has 1 whopping more point than AA while being given a ton more playing time.

This guy hasn't scored a single goal with McDavid or Draisaitl in like 7 games now despite being put with them constantly.

AA should be given a look with McDavid at least.

You are missing the point, even though Ennis is not producing he brings aspects to that line like his tenacious forecheck. Things that AA doesn't bring and it's purely based on effort level on the ice

 

[Soundwave]

You are missing the point, even though Ennis is not producing he brings aspects to that line like his tenacious forecheck. Thins that AA doesn't bring and it's purely based on effort level on the ice

The point actually is the NHL is not like some restaurant where you can send something back because you don't like the taste.

There is a salary cap and acquiring players is hard. Your job as an organization is to maximize the players you have.

This guy can score and skate. It's incumbent on our coaching staff to settle him down, get him confident, and give him time to gel with our better players.

You can't act like a fussy 5 year old who doesn't like one toy and now wants a different one. When you operate a team that way you get situations like the Ryan Strome one where this team gifted away a perfectly good, useful player for dick all reasoning (because they refused to ever play him with McDavid or Draisaitl). Last time I checked this team has 2 Panarin+ tier players and they gave him no real opportunity to ever play with those guys or build any confidence with those guys.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Years of playing on a historically bad team really does a number on your ability to compete at the level needed on a consistent basis.

No doubt he’s been underwhelming so far but the things I like is that he’s showing a commitment to defensive play, even though he’s making mistakes he’s trying and that’s a good sign. I think if he does what the coaching staff asks of him they can mold him into exactly what our top 6 needs. A strong two way player with goal scoring ability. He’s got the speed and the size and I think he’s got enough hockey sense to do that job if he’s willing to put it the work.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yet he has 1 whopping more point than AA while being given a ton more playing time with those players.

This guy hasn't scored a single goal with McDavid or Draisaitl in like 7 games now despite being put with them constantly.

AA should be given a look with McDavid at least.

Not being able to produce in the Oilers bottom six is hardly an indictment of anything. Kassian was on pace for a 6 goal season in the bottom 6, Strome was on pace for 8 points total in the same role, Nugent Hopkins saw his production rate tank playing with bottom 6 players, it took Archibald a long time to get going down there.

Ennis is not in the topsix "constantly" he's there more because of what everybody is saying is that he will actually pressure pucks and forecheck and work hard without the puck. Sometimes he's been indistinguishable from Archibald and that's a good thing. AA is in the right place and Tippett hoping some work habits rub off on him. He'll get his looks when the team see's the player applying himself on shifts in all zones. Work in progress.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Hall and Kassian are not exactly "high IQ" players either, yet Draisaitl played well with them. And he struggled initially in times when he would play with Nugent Hopkins. The fact is you don't know, you don't have the foggiest idea of what would happen.

0.3 GPG players are top 6 players virtually on any team. That list you made had maybe one guy that's scored 0.3 GPG in the last 3 seasons.

GOALS win hockey games last time I checked, they're not some outlier metric that's a "nice to have". They are the pivotal point of playing the freaking game.

Yes and my argument is AA 0.3 ppg is being propled by an outlier season.

Yes goals are very important. Same with helping your linemates score goals. Something that with him not being able to forechecker, or not being able to help cycle or keep possession doesn't help with.

My point is players like AA are better suited for bottom 6 time cause yes, it's great the score goals, but you want to limit their weaknesses from being exposed which you can't do with McDavid or Draisaitl being his center.

Could it work. Absolutely.
Does it look like something a very good coach in Tippett is willing to try right now? Nope

 

[Soundwave]

Ennis is not in the topsix "constantly" he's there more because of what everybody is saying is that he will actually pressure pucks and forecheck and work hard without the puck. Sometimes he's been indistinguishable from Archibald and that's a good thing. AA is in the right place and Tippett hoping some work habits rub off on him. He'll get his looks when the team see's the player applying himself on shifts in all zones. Work in progress.

He's played on either McDavid or Draisaitl's line virtually every game except the last one because McDavid was sick and has one more point to show for that than AA does.

2/3 points are actually directly because of AA.

 

[nabob]

Forget it. Nabob needs to mention this 523 times and counting. Yama transformed every aspect of his play. He did his homework and then some. AA is near 26 and has been in the league several seasons. I think you said earlier with AA this is pretty much what we got.

I do expect a tweener type player that can score 20 in the right config. WC is harder for a player like AA. Always maintained this. He's not going to get 30 breakaways a year playing here.

But heres how strawman implementation works. Some people were wrong on Yama so there can't be valid comments on any other incoming player ever..

Yamamoto really didn’t transform his game. He’s always been a guy who goes into traffic areas and uses his low center of gravity and excellent strength for his size (destroyed the combine) to come out with pucks. He’s always had a good nose around the net as well.
Looks like you didn’t know much about the player who you claimed would never make it and should never play with Drai lol.

 

[nabob]

He's played on either McDavid or Draisaitl's line virtually every game except the last one because McDavid was sick and has one more point to show for that than AA does.

2/3 points are actually directly because of AA.

also funny that 1/2 of AA’s penalties are a direct result of Ennis. The obvious makeup call of the phantom trip after Ennis wrecked Benn with a high stick.
Interesting that he had 2 points in one game with McDavid, got hurt and then never got any kind of consistent time after that in the top 6.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The point actually is the NHL is not like some restaurant where you can send something back because you don't like the taste.

There is a salary cap and acquiring players is hard. Your job as an organization is to maximize the players you have.

This guy can score and skate. It's incumbent on our coaching staff to settle him down, get him confident, and give him time to gel with our better players.

You can't act like a fussy 5 year old who doesn't like one toy and now wants a different one. When you operate a team that way you get situations like the Ryan Strome one where this team gifted away a perfectly good, useful player for dick all reasoning (because they refused to ever play him with McDavid or Draisaitl). Last time I checked this team has 2 Panarin+ tier players and they gave him no real opportunity to ever play with those guys or build any confidence with those guys.

i want the Eberle toy instead of this one. The Hall toy of course too...

Could be one of the reasons that Oilers fans are so impatient with incoming wingers is we know what kind of wingers the org flushed down the toilet. Kind of hard to forget. So the learn to like guys like AA thing is a bit old in that he's the latest in the string of this will replace that Hall offense..

What other org vacates its established wingers and spends years airlifting other clubs projects and suspects in trying to get somebody with hands.

OK, back to 2020..

 

[Soundwave]

also funny that 1/2 of AA’s penalties are a direct result of Ennis. The obvious makeup call of the phantom trip after Ennis wrecked Benn with a high stick.
Interesting that he had 2 points in one game with McDavid, got hurt and then never got any kind of consistent time after that in the top 6.

Yeah it's not even like they were bad ... 2 points in one game, and then the guy gets hurt the next game and never gets a try there again really is not the best usage.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Is it just a bit odd that the same posters saying that AA needs more time (I agree) are also saying that AA needs more looks in topsix immediately? (I don't agree)

I'm having a hard time reconciling the two points. If AA needs more time to get settled in, and the team is being patient with him, it stands to reason that the time is spent being sheltered, and getting chances against weaker lines. This indeed being where he found success last season in Detroit.

I don't think the answer is AA in topsix right now. He's not somebody that scores on the cycle, or in sustained pressure situations. That's not his apparent strongsuit. He's somebody thats scored on quick rush breakaways, 2 on 1's catching teams forward. One would think he's best served by playing against weaker lines and D pairs. Right?

That said I expect he'll be getting some looks in topsix to mix it up and confuse opponent matching.

 

[CycloneSweep]

i want the Eberle toy instead of this one. The Hall toy of course too...

Could be one of the reasons that Oilers fans are so impatient with incoming wingers is we know what kind of wingers the org flushed down the toilet. Kind of hard to forget. So the learn to like guys like AA thing is a bit old in that he's the latest in the string of this will replace that Hall offense..

What other org vacates its established wingers and spends years airlifting other clubs projects and suspects in trying to get somebody with hands.

OK, back to 2020..

He has been on a shit team and has developed some obvious bad habits. Tippett wants his guys being able to play the system and a certain way. Ennis is vet enough to pick up on it quick so he has gotten more time. AA is taking more time to learn. We are in a bitter playoff race so Tippett is trusting other guys in the top 6 until AA can learn that. I definitely see him getting more time in the playoffs and near the end of the season

 

[Soundwave]

Fwiw I wanted Strome retained. Many did. He wasn't bad here, not as much production as liked, but again on a ratty bottomsix. Strome having a very solid year. That said I don't think Strome loved it here. With him I think it was a location thing. He's more motivated playing in NY area it seems.

More like it's an opportunity issue. From all reports Strome was very well liked by the room and liked the players here, especially McDavid.

The truth is the coaching staff here for whatever reason never, ever gave him a chance to play with McDavid or Draisaitl. They tried it for 2 pre-season games and decided that was enough and they knew it all.

Our bottom 6 is just not a great barometer for how well a player can play, we've seen players like RNH and even Draisaitl have their scoring go to crap when paired with bottom 6 talent here, what did you think was going to happen with a player like Strome if that's all you ever gave him a chance to work with.

 

[Jesus Take the Wheel]

The point actually is the NHL is not like some restaurant where you can send something back because you don't like the taste.

There is a salary cap and acquiring players is hard. Your job as an organization is to maximize the players you have.

This guy can score and skate. It's incumbent on our coaching staff to settle him down, get him confident, and give him time to gel with our better players.

You can't act like a fussy 5 year old who doesn't like one toy and now wants a different one. When you operate a team that way you get situations like the Ryan Strome one where this team gifted away a perfectly good, useful player for dick all reasoning (because they refused to ever play him with McDavid or Draisaitl).

I don't get your infatuation with bringing up Strome in this conversation. He was brought in as a 3c, he played well as a 3c and he shouldn't have been traded. Get over it.

Yes he can skate and score, yes he has below average hands and defensive skills which is fine as well. But blaming the team for his usage and fans for getting on his case when he gets traded from last place to a team competing for the playoffs and he comes in and plays with the a preseason effort level and intensity is riduclous.

This is on AA to start showing some effort and then he will get his opportunities

 

[nabob]

Yeah it's not even like they were bad ... 2 points in one game, and then the guy gets hurt the next game and never gets a try there again really is not the best usage.

Hopefully he can get more comfortable within a new system and work his way back up the lineup.

Also could be noted that no one has had chemistry with McDavid the last couple weeks as he has been sick and playing what IMO is the worst hockey of his career. AA had two points in one game, might be worth a shot to see if there’s anything there.

 

[Soundwave]

I don't get your infatuation with bringing up Strome in this conversation. He was brought in as a 3c, he played well as a 3c and he shouldn't have been traded. Get over it.

Yes he can skate and score, yes he has below average hands and defensive skills which is fine as well. But blaming the team for his usage and fans for getting on his case when he gets traded from last place to a team competing for the playoffs and he comes in and plays with the a preseason effort level and intensity is riduclous.

This is on AA to start showing some effort and then he will get his opportunities

It's on both. NHL organizations don't have the luxury any more of just putting it all on the player, they have to meet the player half way and put him in positions to succeed.

The fact is RNH and Draisaitl (and Strome) couldn't even score with our bottom 6 consistently, so exactly what is AA supposed to do there?

 

[Drivesaitl]

More like it's an opportunity issue. From all reports Strome was very well liked by the room and liked the players here, especially McDavid.

The truth is the coaching staff here for whatever reason never, ever gave him a chance to play with McDavid or Draisaitl.

Our bottom 6 is just not a great barometer for how well a player can play, we've seen players like RNH and even Draisaitl have their scoring go to crap when paired with bottom 6 talent here, what did you think was going to happen with a player like Strome if that's all you ever gave him a chance to work with.

Mclellan isn't that great a coach and plays favorites. It was so important to give Toby Letestu plum spots on the PP.

I'm not too worried with Tippett and he's much more imaginative with schemes, with configs, with changing things up and running multiple schemes. For instance a Tippett PP is much more effective, efficient, and it changes up a lot. Drai for instance being given different set pieces and rotated spots to keep the defenders guessing.

AA will get his looks with Tippett. Provided he brings his best here and keeps optimistic himself.

 

[McDNicks17]

I think a duo like Chiasson and Khaira/Haas would be a good fit for AA.

McDavid and Sheahan/Archibald's lines tend to play an uptempo style that ends up with a ton of chances being traded both ways. I'd say AA plays that style too, but you end up with a bit too much of that with him on those lines.

As much as I've complained about Chiasson in the past, he's a guy who consistently has his line play low event hockey. They don't score much(until recently) and they don't get scored on much. Might slow down the game enough for AA to get comfortable.