Confirmed with Link: Andlauer reaches deal for Ottawa Senators ownership

[Big Muddy]

Rates were higher but the price of the house was far lower, particularly compared to the average salary.

Yes, I was providing info on mortgage rates & nothing else.

 

[Masked]

Well that would explain everything up until 2020-21 when the the market saw back to back years of 20% increases. Pretty sure something significant happened around then...

Yes, something significant happened that slowed increasing the supply.

 

[Boud]

I'm sorry that I'm interpreting your words to mean what they literally mean instead of what you would like them to mean in your mind. Unfortunately I'm not a mind reader. "Salaries are exactly the same as they were" is not the same as salaries are not keeping up with inflation.

Your example is a fallacy. The way I'm responding is if you told me that a Lamborghini can go a million miles an hour or some other incorrect number, I correct you with the actual top speed. You proceed to claim that you just meant it went fast and that it should be obvious what you meant.

This is actually a great example of the conversation we're having. You're having difficulty extracting the message behind the words making it impossible to have an actual conversation.

Anyways, the entire point I'm trying to make - the economy is not conducive to people spending more than they previously did on types of expenses that are considered "luxury" rather than essential. Generally, people are spending more on essentials and thus have less money to shed on non-essential expenses, like hockey games.

 

[redbrick98]

Does everyone like having Ownership in the same box as Hockey Operations during the game ?

Or would you prefer a San Jose Sharks Hasso Plattner setup... where its out of sight 100%

 

[Boud]

idk Boud, I don't agree with a lot of what you are saying.

Yes, the country is tight right now, but this city is very insulated from that with government and high tech being its primary industries.

I've come full circle in life. I was a young guy early in my career when we got the team. I was in on an STH package. Single and partying. I ended up in the private sector with corporate tickets and a box. Then probably 15 years of not being able to afford to go because I had a large family. Now I am back as an STH for the 4th season because my family is raised.

I can compare generations.

I had a post about a month back about young people at Sens games. Never seen so many young adults that are clearly there on their own dime. I think it is great.

But i think you are barking up the wrong tree. Young families have never really had money. Young couples have money. Then they buy a house and have kids and don't have money. Nothing has changed man. That's not new. Ya interest rates spiked. Salaries spiked pretty good too in the government. And classifications are quite a bit higher than they use to be.

There just never has been an ability for people with young kids to regularly attend world class sporting events. They're just priced out of it. Two games a year in the coke zone ? Sure I guess. But attending regularly. No.

oh, and to your question of when have salaries ever not increased. The 1990s. They were frozen for 6 years. kinda hard for someone to have been a young adult in that environment to look at today and think these guys have it hard

ARCHIVED - Identifying the Issues (archived) 1 / 2

This is the first report of the Advisory Committee on Labour-Management Relations in the Federal Public Service.

www.tbs-sct.canada.ca

I guess the point I was trying to make with the salaries is that they are always increasing over time. They are not decreasing or even stagnating. Maybe for a short period of time but in the last 30 years they've constantly increased. You wouldn't be wrong by saying that salaries over time are always increasing. What's been decreasing is the purchasing power of that money.

I think your general premise that young families were struggling after purchasing a house is not necessarily giving justice to the current situation for first time home buyers if you compare it to 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. How much more money is the average person making compared to 5 years ago? It's pretty damn similar.

This is the trend that you see in Canada and this includes Ottawa where income is more stable than most other cities.

I don't personally think it's debatable that young people now have it harder than people in the 90s. Because the money people had in the 90's went far compared to now. It's not particularly close either.

 

[Micklebot]

I guess the point I was trying to make with the salaries is that they are always increasing over time. They are not decreasing or even stagnating. Maybe for a short period of time but in the last 30 years they've constantly increased. You wouldn't be wrong by saying that salaries over time are always increasing. What's been decreasing is the purchasing power of that money.

I think your general premise that young families were struggling after purchasing a house is not necessarily giving justice to the current situation for first time home buyers if you compare it to 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. How much more money is the average person making compared to 5 years ago? It's pretty damn similar.

View attachment 834943

This is the trend that you see in Canada and this includes Ottawa where income is more stable than most other cities.

I don't personally think it's debatable that young people now have it harder than people in the 90s. Because the money people had in the 90's went far compared to now. It's not particularly close either.

What doesn't show up there is household income would have grown faster that you'd assume since the number our dual income households has nearly doubled in the last 40 years according to stats can, and on top of that, you're spending significantly longer to save up the downpayment with higher house prices and stricter rules for min downpayment.

 

[Boud]

What doesn't show up there is household income would have grown faster that you'd assume since the number our dual income households has nearly doubled in the last 40 years according to stats can, and on top of that, you're spending significantly longer to save up the downpayment with higher house prices and stricter rules for min downpayment.

Sure, let's look at 15 years, 10 years ago compared to now, or 5 years ago compared to now.

I also want to point out the context of the conversation - people don't have the same flexibility than they used to.

 

[redbrick98]

Does everyone like having Andlauer in the same box as Hockey Operations during the game ?

Or would you prefer a San Jose Sharks Hasso Plattner setup... where its out of sight 100%

 

[JD1]

Some napkin math,

Mortgage payment of 645/m in 1980 for a 63k home with 10% down, at 13% int rate would be 2.76% of an avg annual salary of 23k

Mortgage payment of 3250/m in 2024 for a 650k home with 10% down, at 4.5% int rate would be 4.64% of an avg annual salary of 70k

There was a thread about a year and change back about housing affordability. I posted an article on housing affordability from BMO saying that housing affordability was the worst since 1995.

People didn't like that. That thread got locked

Here's another article

https://betterdwelling.com/canadian...2nd-worst-in-history-recession-to-follow-bmo/

Take a good look. I finished uni in 1988. And i sure as shit didn't read an article in the paper every day between 1988 and 1995 (when I bought my first house) telling me how bad I had it.

Afford an apartment? f*** no. Couldn't afford to live alone. We rented houses. 4 guys in a 4 bedroom. I lived in several houses like that and lived that way for years. It never occurred to me, or any of my roommates, that we were hard done by. All of my roommate buddies in those days eventually were home owners in their early 30s

Is it hard to save? Sure. Live at home. Save hard. Live with several people. Save hard.

People my age have kids in there 20s and early 30s. And yes, the data says it was just as challenging buying a house back then....but we just didn't realize we were "hard done by"

You know what was cheaper? Sens tickets. We had a bunch of guys in on a great pair for three years. I dropped out. Why. Bought a home. Couldn't afford it.

 

[JD1]

I guess the point I was trying to make with the salaries is that they are always increasing over time. They are not decreasing or even stagnating. Maybe for a short period of time but in the last 30 years they've constantly increased. You wouldn't be wrong by saying that salaries over time are always increasing. What's been decreasing is the purchasing power of that money.

I think your general premise that young families were struggling after purchasing a house is not necessarily giving justice to the current situation for first time home buyers if you compare it to 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. How much more money is the average person making compared to 5 years ago? It's pretty damn similar.

View attachment 834943

This is the trend that you see in Canada and this includes Ottawa where income is more stable than most other cities.

I don't personally think it's debatable that young people now have it harder than people in the 90s. Because the money people had in the 90's went far compared to now. It's not particularly close either.

I don't trust graphs like that without being able to see the data.

How old are you? Are you old enough to recall how people lived in the 80s or the 90s?

 

[thinkwild]

I remember we were shown a film strip in school way back when and they were talking about the future. And i distinctly remember one of the predictions was that we would become so productive as a society that the average person would only be working a 10 hr work week and we would be trying to find new things to do with our time. Ah those naive times. Seems inflation adjusted we are making the same and all the productivity profits went to the capitalists. And then we fought to give them tax breaks on top of it.

I do remember many people who paid their way through university with summer jobs though. It does seem tougher now. Although like JD1, i had roommates out of school and student loans for a while which seemed normal.

I wonder what a chart of housing price increases vs pro franchise price increases would look like. It doesnt feel they would track in parallel. But i guess sports' ability to exploit advertisers and tv did get better too.

 

[Boud]

I don't trust graphs like that without being able to see the data.

How old are you? Are you old enough to recall how people lived in the 80s or the 90s?

Completely understand that, let's look at the data. I'm in my 30's so I do remember how it was to live in the 90's, not the 80's. Still that's not the point of the conversation, there was no hockey team in Ottawa in the 80's. There was a hockey team in Ottawa in the 90s and we are debating whether people have more or less money to spend on hockey games. This is the general conversation we are having.

For the sake of your argument, let's compare average salaries in Ottawa and average house prices between 2004 and now. I would've liked to use 1995 but I'm trying to find verifiable data on public sector salaries for the exact same job and I can only find back to 2004.

1) The average price of sold homes in Ottawa (including condos) in 2004 was $235,678 CAD.
2) The average price of sold homes in Ottawa (including condos) in 2023 was $654,857 CAD.

3) The first step salary for an FI-03 position in November 2004 was 65,916 CAD.
4) The first step salary for an FI-03 position in November 2023 was $99,941 CAD.

Looking at 2004, the price of a house was about 3.6 times the entry level salary of an FI-03.
Looking at 2023, the price of a house was about 6.6 times the entry level salary of an FI-03.

So, to be honest, we're looking at the exact same job with the exact same tasks on a fixed salary scale from the government of Canada. We are looking at average reported sale price of houses and condos in Ottawa. This is concrete data. Look at the house prices from the last 5 years, it's gone completely out of wack for a first time home buyer.

It's not because you have your own perception that the times were also tough back then that it is not more difficult to get into the market now for a first time home buyer. The data supports that quite clearly and unequivocally. You can live with 10 people or alone , that doesn't change anything. Trust me that many people still do the same thing that you did and were living multiple tenants in a house. They are still faced with the challenge of coming up with down payments on a house that's more than 6 times their own salary.

When mortgage prices increase, the rents also increase. This means that the average rent cost for an average home in the Ottawa area is taking a much larger proportion of a tenants salary on a monthly basis, making it more difficult to save money in the first place. Having more roommates only allows you to save more money, it doesn't change the market dynamics.

Sure, this situation may not impact you because you have your house paid. You worked hard to get what you have and that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that it is not even comparable from back then to now. Your house that you purchased in 1995 is probably worth 4 times what it used to back then.

Ottawa Market Stats | Average Home Prices | This Months News

Real Estate Market Update, Ottawa - Current months OREB Stats, incl. Average Prices, Number of Sales, percent change, & Historical Housing Trends & News

www.agentinottawa.com

https://www.acfo-acaf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FI-collective-agreement-exp-2007.pdf

Comptrollership (CT)- Canada.ca

www.tbs-sct.canada.ca

 

[Masked]

This is actually a great example of the conversation we're having. You're having difficulty extracting the message behind the words making it impossible to have an actual conversation.

Anyways, the entire point I'm trying to make - the economy is not conducive to people spending more than they previously did on types of expenses that are considered "luxury" rather than essential. Generally, people are spending more on essentials and thus have less money to shed on non-essential expenses, like hockey games.

I'm not having difficulty with anything. You're making factual errors. You're moving goalposts. And you're using bad examples for why the Senators will find it tough to raise prices and/or increase attendance.

The housing market is only rough for those looking to enter it. Most people looking to do that aren't buying season tickets regardless of what the housing market is like. They're usually devoting most of their income to getting the best house they can.

You're claiming things like gas prices have increased by 50% but that's only from COVID lows in 2020. Current prices are pretty close to summer of 2018 gas prices. And with most public servants only working in the office 2 or 3 times a week, they're using a lot less gas and they have more free time from not commuting as much.

 

[bert]

Does everyone like having Andlauer in the same box as Hockey Operations during the game ?

Or would you prefer a San Jose Sharks Hasso Plattner setup... where its out of sight 100%

If you want to actually look at the issue and blame someone. Perhaps you should look at who actually built the team.

 

[mysens]

People, the cost of living, goods etc is exponentially much much higher than the USA.....one of the major factors that has ignited this is Turdeau Carbon Tax. Period. It affects every single item that makes it in your mouth. It affects every raw material to make homes. This is what is destroying our economy. Carbon Tax.

 

[JD1]

Completely understand that, let's look at the data. I'm in my 30's so I do remember how it was to live in the 90's, not the 80's. Still that's not the point of the conversation, there was no hockey team in Ottawa in the 80's. There was a hockey team in Ottawa in the 90s and we are debating whether people have more or less money to spend on hockey games. This is the general conversation we are having.

For the sake of your argument, let's compare average salaries in Ottawa and average house prices between 2004 and now. I would've liked to use 1995 but I'm trying to find verifiable data on public sector salaries for the exact same job and I can only find back to 2004.

1) The average price of sold homes in Ottawa (including condos) in 2004 was $235,678 CAD.
2) The average price of sold homes in Ottawa (including condos) in 2023 was $654,857 CAD.

3) The first step salary for an FI-03 position in November 2004 was 65,916 CAD.
4) The first step salary for an FI-03 position in November 2023 was $99,941 CAD.

Looking at 2004, the price of a house was about 3.6 times the entry level salary of an FI-03.
Looking at 2023, the price of a house was about 6.6 times the entry level salary of an FI-03.

So, to be honest, we're looking at the exact same job with the exact same tasks on a fixed salary scale from the government of Canada. We are looking at average reported sale price of houses and condos in Ottawa. This is concrete data. Look at the house prices from the last 5 years, it's gone completely out of wack for a first time home buyer.

It's not because you have your own perception that the times were also tough back then that it is not more difficult to get into the market now for a first time home buyer. The data supports that quite clearly and unequivocally. You can live with 10 people or alone , that doesn't change anything. Trust me that many people still do the same thing that you did and were living multiple tenants in a house. They are still faced with the challenge of coming up with down payments on a house that's more than 6 times their own salary.

When mortgage prices increase, the rents also increase. This means that the average rent cost for an average home in the Ottawa area is taking a much larger proportion of a tenants salary on a monthly basis, making it more difficult to save money in the first place. Having more roommates only allows you to save more money, it doesn't change the market dynamics.

Sure, this situation may not impact you because you have your house paid. You worked hard to get what you have and that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that it is not even comparable from back then to now. Your house that you purchased in 1995 is probably worth 4 times what it used to back then.

Ottawa Market Stats | Average Home Prices | This Months News

Real Estate Market Update, Ottawa - Current months OREB Stats, incl. Average Prices, Number of Sales, percent change, & Historical Housing Trends & News

www.agentinottawa.com

https://www.acfo-acaf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FI-collective-agreement-exp-2007.pdf

Comptrollership (CT)- Canada.ca

www.tbs-sct.canada.ca

Last night I said I'd done this apples to apples comparison probably a year to 18 months back. There was no question at all that 2022 had more ability than 1995 to pay a mortgage. Coming up with a down payment is a bit more of a challenge today admittedly.

Just go look at the housing affordability index in the article I posted. It's a BoC developed index.

To the point you made about comparing. I have an advantage over you in that I have been around the public service for just shy of 40 years. You can't compare today's salary with an identical salary from the same classification from years back. Virtually everything is classified higher today. I can look back to the summer of 85 and recall how people were classified then versus now. I don't have any insight into the scientific categories but apart from them, I have a pretty broad understanding.

This week they welcomed a new person onto the team I work with. An admin assistant. She's an AS 02. In two years, she'll be making 74K. In the 10 years I was a GC employee, admin assistants were CR 04s. On that salary grid it would take her 3 years to get to 61.

You'd need to understand and consider that when you try to compare responsibility across decades..

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

There's absolutely no money to be made buying seasons and selling them in Ottawa. You'd be lucky to break even. Terrible investment in your time and money. Stop making things up. I'm a STH I give them to clients and go to some of the games. I'm well aware of the resale possibilities and they suck. Doing this because I don't want this team to move and I enjoy going here and there. Its honestly people like you that are a big problem with this fanbase. Always spreading a bullshit self serving false narrative. That creates negativity and skepticism.

Just mentioned when I bought some Sens tickets a few years back, and this particular STH lived in Three Rivers Quebec. Why would anyone that far away buy STs? The obvious answer is for resale online… otherwise why bother, there has to be logical reason, like selling individual games, bought as a ST package, below face value, and selling the above face value. Have heard on many Ottawa residents who buy their STs and sell off the premium priced games (Toronto, Montreal and others) again, above face value (supply and demand)… as a way of subsidising the games they retain for themselves.

It’s not rocket science.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

no choice.. Pensions for baby boomers.. And life expectancy has increased.

when Canada's social system was being formulated in the early 1960's under Mike Pearson.. Average life expectancy was 72.. It is 83 today.

essentially most pension plans (Private or government) have to pay a further 11 years over what they assumed in 1964.

And since we live longer, we consume way more pharmaceuticals and use up way more health care.. we are not dropping dead as easily as we did in the 1960's..

It is either open the immigration vault and let young people in, or we will run out of money and 75 year old baby boomer grandma, will have no hospital, no medicine and no pension.

The housing crunch will be eased over the next 5 years.. it is a blip that people need to endure.. If families were as unified as they once did.. Then Mom and Dad (both sets) should drop the 10 to 20 K each to help the kids buy a home.. But baby boomer Mom and Dad have lived large and don't have two pennies to rub together. Plus Mom and Dad are divorced and step Mom or Step Dad ain't f***ing helping the step child that hates them!!!!

Just to be clear, pension plans such as CPP and private plans are pretty much all self contained, and both the recipient and the employer contributed into a pension fund, and when the time comes, the pensions are drawn from these fund plans.

These funds, much like an RSP or LIF do not depend on population growth…… what does is OAS and the GIS that is funded directed from Federal Taxes collected each year.

Sounds like you’re conflating pension funds, that operate as setup irregardless of what the population is, and OAS & GIS which from the current workforce.

People, the cost of living, goods etc is exponentially much much higher than the USA.....one of the major factors that has ignited this is Turdeau Carbon Tax. Period. It affects every single item that makes it in your mouth. It affects every raw material to make homes. This is what is destroying our economy. Carbon Tax.

You couldn’t be more correct

 

[JD1]

People, the cost of living, goods etc is exponentially much much higher than the USA.....one of the major factors that has ignited this is Turdeau Carbon Tax. Period. It affects every single item that makes it in your mouth. It affects every raw material to make homes. This is what is destroying our economy. Carbon Tax.

carbon tax and massive immigration numbers pushing housing thru the roof ... a lot of the immigration stems from educational facilities profiting from charging huge fees to foreign students. s an alternative, we could just fund schools properly and not have run away housing prices?

 

[Ice-Tray]

What the hell just happened to this thread?!? This housing discussion has immigrated here and is eating up quality real estate in this unrelated thread.

I think it’s great that Andlauer is in the box with management. Ownership is fluid, and you need to make sure that you put good people in the right places and give them some degree of autonomy, but the buck does stop with him so he has to care, and he has to be involved at some level.

The fact that he can hang with his direct hires and take in a game is a good sign to me.

As always, it comes down to the degree of micro management, and the how much skill any particular owner has in terms of running a hockey team.

 

[bicboi64]

What the hell just happened to this thread?!? This housing discussion has immigrated here and is eating up quality real estate in this unrelated thread.

Agreed with this, can mods please remove all the non-Andlauer related posts?

One thing about Andlauer I want to see is how much we give in signing bonuses for future signings. Might be a sign of how open his wallet is

 

[Dan Patrick]

People, the cost of living, goods etc is exponentially much much higher than the USA.....one of the major factors that has ignited this is Turdeau Carbon Tax. Period. It affects every single item that makes it in your mouth. It affects every raw material to make homes. This is what is destroying our economy. Carbon Tax.

You do realize you get a rebate for the majority of any price difference the carbon tax might be adding to the price of goods. I don’t come to a sens forum to argue economics but conservative talking points that are absolutely pushed by the oil and gas lobby are absolutely ridiculous and should be fact checked.

Also I can’t wait for people to cheer when the cons “axe the tax” and prices don’t go down to match corporate savings (because corporations know the market will bear the cost) and the government no longer gives a rebate leaving even less money in the pockets of most Canadians. GEORGE Carlin’s quote about the average person in full effect.

 

[Micklebot]

Dan Carlin’s quote about the average person in full effect.

I'm not interested in extending the rest of your post, probably best to let that subject die off as political discussion isn't allowed, but I'm curious what quite you are referring to here, my head immediately jumped to George Carling saying something to the effect of "think about how stupid the average person is then realize that half of them are dumber than that"...

 

[mysens]

You do realize you get a rebate for the majority of any price difference the carbon tax might be adding to the price of goods. I don’t come to a sens forum to argue economics but conservative talking points that are absolutely pushed by the oil and gas lobby are absolutely ridiculous and should be fact checked.

Also I can’t wait for people to cheer when the cons “axe the tax” and prices don’t go down to match corporate savings (because corporations know the market will bear the cost) and the government no longer gives a rebate leaving even less money in the pockets of most Canadians. Dan Carlin’s quote about the average person in full effect.

When you are ion the other side of the coin and I pay 26k a month for carbon tax alone, you would understand. But you’re collecting your 300 dollar cheque. Guess where that comes from. Guys like me. Yep, axe this tax.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

When you are ion the other side of the coin and I pay 26k a month for carbon tax alone, you would understand. But you’re collecting your 300 dollar cheque. Guess where that comes from. Guys like me. Yep, axe this tax.

If you're paying 26k a month, you're obviously incredibly wealthy doing big business. Not the type of people we're too worried about even if you have a point. From our perspective, keep the tax.