Speculation: and the plot thickens... (Evander Kane insists he was a healthy scratch vs. Chicago)

[ATLhockey437]

How would you attract a new coach if you had a record of firing coaches because the team lost two games?

It wasn't just those two games, the team was hot around december, leading the SE div and fans on here were already making jokes about having an SE banner in MTS.

In typical Thrasher fashion, this team collapsed at the worst time of the season and played themselves right out of the playoffs letting the caps back into the picture.

Caps were closing the gap on the div with around 15-20 games left in the season, this team was playing awful and it was only getting worse.

Fans on here knew that this upcoming back to back games against the caps was gonna make or break their playoff chances. The Jets got embarrassed at home and then traveled to WSH only to lose again. Jets were still in the picture but you could tell there was no life left in them after losing those 2 games. As we all know, they ended up bubbling missing the playoffs by 4 points.

All the Jets had to do was win those 2 games against the caps to have a nice gap in the SE Div and have some momentum to build on for the playoff push. The exact opposite happened and Noel couldnt get his team to show up for the most important games of the season. He doesn't know how to motivate or get a consistent effort out of his players.

Noel needs to go.

 

[ihadtochangethename]

I think the burden of proof is on the people making the claim. In this case, there has been lots of analysis regarding his poor allocation of ice-time, poor use of goalies and poor communication skills.

Noel, who is supposedly a gifted talent developer, has driven a young, potential asset to Russia while repeatedly alienating the single most valuable player on this team. Bogosian looks every bit the bust he was labelled as pre-2012, and Scheiffele has been completely invisible. As of now, he's 1/4 at developing young talent, and that 1 just called him out publicly.

All of that before even mentioning that he's got a bad winning % and is on track to have us miss the playoffs for the third straight year.

I feel like a good number of coaches with much better credentials have gotten fired for a whole lot less. If someone with a history of success becomes available I'd be very intrigued.

The simple explanation is that Noel is an inept coach. He may have legitimately thought that the team was better off without Kane for that game. Some speculate that the decision could have been motivated by the idea that they won with the same lineup against Detroit, so why change it? This is largely regarded as bad coaching, and while we see it as "jeopardizing" wins, he may not.

I'm not saying that's what Noel was really thinking, but it is one explanation.

Although I don't necessarily believe it, I think some people are afraid Noel went with the lineup that won in det, as opposed to the lineup that had the best chance of winning.

So much of all this...although i like to think that year 1 Kane would have become today's Kane sans Noel and his staff, just as he will become the Kane of tomorrow which will be even more spectacular.

 

[Gnova]

It wasn't just those two games, the team was hot around december, leading the SE div and fans on here were already making jokes about having an SE banner in MTS.

In typical Thrasher fashion, this team collapsed at the worst time of the season and played themselves right out of the playoffs letting the caps back into the picture.

Caps were closing the gap on the div with around 15-20 games left in the season, this team was playing awful and it was only getting worse.

Fans on here knew that this upcoming back to back games against the caps was gonna make or break their playoff chances. The Jets got embarrassed at home and then traveled to WSH only to lose again. Jets were still in the picture but you could tell there was no life left in them after losing those 2 games. As we all know, they ended up bubbling missing the playoffs by 4 points.

All the Jets had to do was win those 2 games against the caps to have a nice gap in the SE Div and have some momentum to build on for the playoff push. The exact opposite happened and Noel couldnt get his team to show up for the most important games of the season. He doesn't know how to motivate or get a consistent effort out of his players.

Noel needs to go.

EVERYONE knew how important those games were. If the coach has to motivate players who knew all of the facts above the it points directly at a rotten player core.

A coach needs to motivate a team playing a back to back in January when there is a blizzard outside. They should never have to motivate a team in I portent games.

Everyone points to those two games last year and blames the Jets for the losses. Maybe have a look at how good the opposition was playing. The Caps were a much better team than the Jets and earned their playoff spot by playing crazy good for the last half of the season.
I guess all of the other teams that the Caps anilalated at the end of last year needed to fire their coaches too.

 

[ps241]

Some internet posters question Noel's coaching abilities, while at the same time, here is what one of his peers has to say about him:


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/11/...have-taken-high-road-not-pouring-fuel-on-fire

Trotz' credibility capital>>>>>> HFJets group-think

Trotz is not the only coach to give Claude his endorsement. after our first encounter with St. Louis in season 1 of the Jets 2.0 Hitch had similar comments. Also Bruce Boudreau had similar things to say about Claude before one game when he was the caps coach (or maybe it was when he was with The ducks).

Lets assume for the moment that these comments were all sincere and accurate in the educated opinions of this group of tenured coach's. Does that mean Claude gets a pass because he is qualified to do the job in the opion of some of his friends. At the end of the day being qualified for the job is table stakes.....after that it really comes down to what you acheive with your talents.

Also most coach's appear to have a shelf life. Lets take Hitch as an example, he had an amazing run as head coach of Dallas but he was eventually fired in his 7th season due to a rift with players. then he was hired in Philly where he had very good results for 3 seasons, got off to a terrible start in his 4th season and was fired. He was hired by Columbus and got them into the playoffs for the only time in franchise history in year 3 and was fired in year 4 when the team regressed. Ken was hired by St Louis in 2011 and promptly turned things around and who knows where this run will end. Boudreau had a nice run with Ovi and the caps especially in the regular season for 4 years but was fired in his 5th season and promptly hired in Anaheim. although the Ducks missed the playoffs in the year Bruce was brought in they made the playoffs last season and he has the Ducks off to a 14-3 start this season.

I site these examples because these are guys that are clearly qualified but between them have been relieved of their duties 4 times in their NHL coaching careers. Unfortunately its the nature of the business that coach's, competent or not, will run their coarse with a team. some Org's like Nashville and Buffalo are the exception to the rule but for the most part change happens.

As far as coach Noel goes he was delivered a bottom 10 roster talent wise by the Thrashers and after two seasons showed modest progression in the standings and got the team close to the playoffs last year. This year we are currently in last place in a brutally tough division. It's kind of hard for me to judge the results to date based on the strength of schedule.

TNSE don't seem like the rash types although my guess is they would expect to see some progress this season. no matter what anyone thinks none of us really know what's going to happen.

As far as this Board goes Just because Trotz has given Noel his endorsment it doesn't mean this isn't a debate worthy topic because talented coaches run their coarse with teams and get fired all too often. Really its not like we have the keys to the launch codes around here so what is the harm in group think?

 

[Channelcat]

I can tell you Doug Maclean won't be giving Claude any "endorsement".

 

[sipowicz]

I can tell you Doug Maclean won't be giving Claude any "endorsement".

All Macleans career .487 coaching record says is, failure as an NHL head coach. End of story.

 

[ps241]

I can tell you Doug Maclean won't be giving Claude any "endorsement".

Well Claude has that going for him as well

 

[ATLhockey437]

EVERYONE knew how important those games were. If the coach has to motivate players who knew all of the facts above the it points directly at a rotten player core.

A coach needs to motivate a team playing a back to back in January when there is a blizzard outside. They should never have to motivate a team in I portent games.

Everyone points to those two games last year and blames the Jets for the losses. Maybe have a look at how good the opposition was playing. The Caps were a much better team than the Jets and earned their playoff spot by playing crazy good for the last half of the season.
I guess all of the other teams that the Caps anilalated at the end of last year needed to fire their coaches too.

Coaches should never have to motivate their team in important games? Okay. So players before any superbowl or the Americans in 1980, they just sat in silence hours before those games?

"Hey guys, you all know how important this game is so Ill just leave this one up to you, don't worry about anything I went over with you in practice/morning skate, thats all out the window now because my job as the coach is to call for line changes. Cool? Alright boys, take it to em!"

Maybe I shouldn't of used the word "motivate." So you're saying Noel gets a free pass even though he didn't prepare his team properly for those two games because it's all on the players?

Maybe it's a rotten player core because this team has been nothing but inconsistent and lifeless under Noel's system since the relocation and players are sick of him. It's obvious Noel doesn't know how to light a fire under their ***** and that his style of coaching doesn't fit with the player personalities.

You can't blame the loss by saying "well look how good the caps were playing." The Blackhawks were a much better team than the Avalanche last season yet they were the ones to snap the streak.

 

[KingBogo]

It wouldn't be the first time Noel has done that, although with Kane it would be far more dramatic of a difference.

Some will say well player ___ was dogging it or bad or whatever... but how many times have we seen guys sit a few games and go straight to the top 6 the next game they are back?

I'm also pretty sure that Noel's goaltender usage follows this pattern.

I'm just speculating, don't know for sure.

Either way the incentive for Kane to outright lie if he was briefed appropriately is equally weird as the incentive for Noel to sit one of his best players.

I'm a big Kane fan, but it is easier for me to believe he spoke out of turn in frustration because he was not playing than to believe Noel sat him as a healthy scratch when he was ready to play.

The scenario I have in my mind was that Kane was set to play and Noel thought he "would be a player" but the medical staff threw out a caution late in the process based on something observed. Noel maintained the company line and Kane didn't.

 

[peg]

[/B]

I'm a big Kane fan, but it is easier for me to believe he spoke out of turn in frustration because he was not playing than to believe Noel sat him as a healthy scratch when he was ready to play.

The scenario I have in my mind was that Kane was set to play and Noel thought he "would be a player" but the medical staff threw out a caution late in the process based on something observed. Noel maintained the company line and Kane didn't.

Noel could have diffused the whole situation by saying "Of course I would want Evandor on the ice if he was ready to go. He makes us a better team. Unfortunatly the decision was made that he simply wasn't ready." Somehow I don't think that would have been 100% truthful or else he would have said it.

 

[KingBogo]

Noel could have diffused the whole situation by saying "Of course I would want Evandor on the ice if he was ready to go. He makes us a better team. Unfortunatly the decision was made that he simply wasn't ready." Somehow I don't think that would have been 100% truthful or else he would have said it.

Agreed Noel could have used better language. However, as Kane matures I hope he learns there are times when everything isn't about him and you need to watch what you say. I'll extend this both off ice to the media and on ice to the officials.

 

[King Woodballs]

Noel could have diffused the whole situation by saying "Of course I would want Evandor on the ice if he was ready to go. He makes us a better team. Unfortunatly the decision was made that he simply wasn't ready." Somehow I don't think that would have been 100% truthful or else he would have said it.

What?
Why would he need to say that?
Everyone knows it's the case.

Kane is this teams best goal scorer.

If he isn't ready that is all on the medical staff.

 

[djc]

I am confused. I thought Evander Kane was not initially going to travel to Chicago then apparently, at the last minute, he went with the team. Does this not suggest that Kane needed rest from an injury - perhaps inflamation in his foot? It was his foot that was operated on this summer?

Kane dresses for the warm-up but does not play. He states he felt he was healthy therefore he should have played; not that the training staff cleared him to play. Kane diagnosised himself and declared himself ready to play. After the game, Noel acknowledges that good players always want to play then later, I believe, he stated that the training staff had not clear Evander to play. I am not sure what more Noel should have said?

Evander played the end of last season injured and possible felt that if he played injured last year, why not this year?

Like garret9 said, Kane played a dominant game against the Predators. I rather Kane rested, particularly if it is a foot injury, if possible, even if it means him missing a game or two. Speed is essential to his game and I want Evander Kane to play like he did against the Predators in every game.

Of course, this pure speculation on my part.

 

[garret9]

[/B]

I'm a big Kane fan, but it is easier for me to believe he spoke out of turn in frustration because he was not playing than to believe Noel sat him as a healthy scratch when he was ready to play.

The scenario I have in my mind was that Kane was set to play and Noel thought he "would be a player" but the medical staff threw out a caution late in the process based on something observed. Noel maintained the company line and Kane didn't.

Not saying it wasn't possible just pointing out that either one has to be lying or there is a communication problem.

Kane distinctly twice used the phrase doesn't know: "doesn't know why" he was scratched and "doesn't know what the message would be".

That's not simply a disagreement on being healthy... Either:
a)Noel or med staff (or both) didn't appropriately explicate why Kane couldn't play as he wasn't medically clear
b) or Kane is lying about not knowing why
c) or Noel is lying about it being medical

If it was simply Kane self-diagnosing himself, it would just be him disagreeing with the assessment, not him not knowing why.

No matter what it isn't great. Either you have poor communication system that's important to have, a player lying and showing poor character, or a coach who made a poor decision and trying to cover his tracks to the public. I don't like any of the outcomes.

 

[Gnova]

Coaches should never have to motivate their team in important games? Okay. So players before any superbowl or the Americans in 1980, they just sat in silence hours before those games?

"Hey guys, you all know how important this game is so Ill just leave this one up to you, don't worry about anything I went over with you in practice/morning skate, thats all out the window now because my job as the coach is to call for line changes. Cool? Alright boys, take it to em!"

Maybe I shouldn't of used the word "motivate." So you're saying Noel gets a free pass even though he didn't prepare his team properly for those two games because it's all on the players?

Maybe it's a rotten player core because this team has been nothing but inconsistent and lifeless under Noel's system since the relocation and players are sick of him. It's obvious Noel doesn't know how to light a fire under their ***** and that his style of coaching doesn't fit with the player personalities.

You can't blame the loss by saying "well look how good the caps were playing." The Blackhawks were a much better team than the Avalanche last season yet they were the ones to snap the streak.

People read too much into the "win one for the gipper" type coach motivation speech myth.
The coaches job is to make sure the team have the tools to do the job. The players job is to do the job. These aren't minimum wage kids that need the supervisor to come out and yell at them to get their ***** moving, they are highly paid professionals. The people with the C and A's on their jerseys need to make sure everyone is ready to play. That is why so much is made of "leadership in the dressing room".

Inconsistent and lifeless since the relocation? This core had those characteristics mastered before any on the, ever put on a Jets jersey.

A team that consistently looks awful from game to game and the players don't seem to follow any system is the result of a bad coach.

A team that plays inconsistently but does well when they follow the system taught by the coaching team means a bad player core. They had the same problem in Atlanta under a different coach. Sometimes they show up and sometimes they don't. The team has shown that the tools are being given to them by the coaching staff but the players can't be bothered to use them.

 

[ATLhockey437]

The coaches job is to make sure the team have the tools to do the job. The players job is to do the job.

Inconsistent and lifeless since the relocation? This core had those characteristics mastered before any on the, ever put on a Jets jersey.

Thats actually the GM's job. The coaches job is to take those tools, figure out which system will make his team effective night in and out under that system while getting the players to buy into it.

Those characteristics were mastered because Atlanta wasn't a true hockey town and players had no passion playing for fans who knew nothing about hockey, right? I thought putting the team in an actual hockey market in front of "worlds greatest hockey fans" was suppose to change all of that? 2 years later and nothing has changed.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

I think that its kind of an indication that Noel really is losingthe room. I don't think for a second that Kane is really the kind of guy that goes out of his way to have people not like him. While he may not think before he acts(ie. Money Phone), he may not have really thought about it if it was the common thought around the locker room.

No one goes out of their way to be disliked. Even the worst people somehow rationalize their actions.

No one acts that way on the ice, without having issues off the ice. Kane's on ice conduct after whistles borders on the worst in the NHL. You "DON'T THINK FOR A SECOND" this can translate into off ice problems?

We fans don't see what's going on in the dressing room. Few of us are out on the town socializing with the players, & for those that do, professional athletes will still have their guard up. What goes on in the dressing room, stays in the dressing room.

That's why it's hilarious to hear people complain about one dimensional answers from the team & team officials. What do you expect Noel, Kane or anyone to REALLY say when asked any question? It's always the same tripe. The players, the management, the coaching staff have all been trained in media relations. All we ever hear is the same scripted answers to any question that may be asked.

Players, coaches & management rarely divert from this. When someone does, something is VERY wrong. This is a team game. If a player violates this unwritten rule, there should be consequences.

Kane has already had a few issues covered up by management. You would think that he better than anyone would appreciate this & keep his mouth shut. He didn't. He vocally stated a version of events that contradicted what True North was selling.

Anyone else would have had their "healthy scratch" status confirmed by Noel verbalizing it for the games immediately following this incident.

I can understand everyone's position. Just months into being 22 he is in an elite class of NHL players & appears poised to make that next jump into the upper echelon of leagues best at some point very soon. Trading him & watching him explode elsewhere would shift enormous pressure onto Chevy, unless the deal is weighed heavily in our favour.

Personally for me if it's Kane vs. Noel, I'd keep Noel. If Noel goes, another coach inherits Kane. Make no mistake, Kane threw Noel under the bus. Why?

As it stands Kane has nothing to complain about anyways. The teams play to a large degree already complements his skill set. He is being used in every possible scenario & is excelling. So if nothing is wrong, why would a player of his talent ever be a healthy scratch?

Attitude. Plain & simple. Kane's actions DURING the game brought this behind the scenes message front & centre.

The pressure is on & something has to give.

 

[BigZ65]

Not saying it wasn't possible just pointing out that either one has to be lying or there is a communication problem.

Kane distinctly twice used the phrase doesn't know: "doesn't know why" he was scratched and "doesn't know what the message would be".

That's not simply a disagreement on being healthy... Either:
a)Noel or med staff (or both) didn't appropriately explicate why Kane couldn't play as he wasn't medically clear
b) or Kane is lying about not knowing why
c) or Noel is lying about it being medical

If it was simply Kane self-diagnosing himself, it would just be him disagreeing with the assessment, not him not knowing why.

No matter what it isn't great. Either you have poor communication system that's important to have, a player lying and showing poor character, or a coach who made a poor decision and trying to cover his tracks to the public. I don't like any of the outcomes.

Or Kane doesn't agree with the reasoning or judgement of his health. This is most likely IMO. Kane expresses himself like a teenager so you can't take him too literally when he says that he "doesn't know why." That can just as easily mean that he doesn't agree.

 

[garret9]

Or Kane doesn't agree with the reasoning or judgement of his health. This is most likely IMO. Kane expresses himself like a teenager so you can't take him too literally when he says that he "doesn't know why." That can just as easily mean that he doesn't agree.

Not really. Disagreement isn't comparable not knowing why... even teenagers get that.

Medically clear or not is simple and cut/dry. If it was medical *and* it was communicated appropriately to Kane he would not be saying that he doesn't know why/what...

Remember not being medically clear would also consist of the trainers involvement and discussing what needs to be for Kane to be good to go, what he needs to work on, etc. etc.

I don't see it possible as disagreement coming out as doesn't know why... especially when we've seen similar quotes in regards to Noel's decision making twice before (once from Kane).

 

[KingBogo]

Or Kane doesn't agree with the reasoning or judgement of his health. This is most likely IMO. Kane expresses himself like a teenager so you can't take him too literally when he says that he "doesn't know why." That can just as easily mean that he doesn't agree.

That's kind of my thinking as well, and I love him as a player.

 

[atl thrasher344]

Or Kane doesn't agree with the reasoning or judgement of his health. This is most likely IMO. Kane expresses himself like a teenager so you can't take him too literally when he says that he "doesn't know why." That can just as easily mean that he doesn't agree.

It's a little fishy that two players have had public spats with the coach within the past 7/8 months and both times they didnt know why the coach was treating them a certain way. How many times should it happen before it's on the coach? Pissing off young talent because your communication sucks is not something you want to be doing at all, especially with two separate players.

Neither of those players (or any other ones) had any problems like this in Atlanta. It obviously has to do with the coaching staff.

 

[peter sullivan]

......so, anyone notice that Kane is now one point away from being the 9th leading scorer on the team?.....isn't he the face of the franchise...the star player...the one to watch?

he has been hustling for sure this year, but where's the production?....are teams figuring out his move?

(as clarification, his move is to pass it to himself down the boards past a defender...then to shoot)

 

[Gnova]

......so, anyone notice that Kane is now one point away from being the 9th leading scorer on the team?.....isn't he the face of the franchise...the star player...the one to watch?

he has been hustling for sure this year, but where's the production?....are teams figuring out his move?

(as clarification, his move is to pass it to himself down the boards past a defender...then to shoot)

If you add TOI/pt into the equation his production is even worse.

Fantastic hockey skills, subpar hockey IQ.
I would love to mesh Kane and Wellwood into a single player. Wellwood's IQ, Kane's skill and will.

 

[peter sullivan]

^ thats a great point...wellwood should never have made the NHL with his skills set and drive....Kane should be leading the league with his.

maybe one day he will, but he needs to learn to use his teammates more.