Speculation: and the plot thickens... (Evander Kane insists he was a healthy scratch vs. Chicago)

[Jet]

I agree with you but I would suggest that some of the older heads on here and around town suspect that Kane believes he already has arrived full fledged and therein lies the source of the latest "problem" we are debating.

Despite all the hype, Kane isn't a big name player in terms of scoring and accomplishments when compared to the rest of the league. There have been plenty of other players who have been all out healthy scratches and not complained, let alone one who may / may not have been injured.

Deharnais, Versteeg, Schenn, Booth, Yakupov

Did Kane complain though? I thought he just stated his opinion (correct or not). I think he just said he was healthy and didn't play.

Also, I do recall players in the past doing this. Does anyone else remember examples of this?

 

[Tintin's Ghost]

Some internet posters question Noel's coaching abilities, while at the same time, here is what one of his peers has to say about him:


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/11/...have-taken-high-road-not-pouring-fuel-on-fire

Trotz' credibility capital>>>>>> HFJets group-think

It's more than a little funny that the quote you provide to support Noel's coaching abilities is a feel-good quote drawn from a former co-worker who was speaking to the Winnipeg media in Winnipeg about Winnipeg's coach. 24 hours before Noel tells the media that coaches are in a fraternity and support each other (when he was asked about Kevin Dineen's firing and the hiring of his former co-worker Peter Horachek). Not exactly the strongest quote to use to validate your argument. I cannot remember the last time an NHL coach criticized another coach's ability to coach; I do not think any of the roll that way.

Just curious about what you mean with "group-think". Do you apply this universally across the board when you see multiple people agree on something? Or is it only when it can be used against an argument you don't agree with? I'm just curious.

 

[Whileee]

Some internet posters question Noel's coaching abilities, while at the same time, here is what one of his peers has to say about him:


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/11/...have-taken-high-road-not-pouring-fuel-on-fire

Trotz' credibility capital>>>>>> HFJets group-think

When was the last time you heard a coach criticize another coach? There's a reason why they call it the "coaching fraternity". They all know that they are under fire, and none of them think it's their fault when things go downhill. Trotz might genuinely believe that, but he knows that Noel is feeling the heat and this was a nice gesture. I hardly think it can be seen as an objective analysis of coaching brilliance.

In the end, it all comes down to team performance. Some coaches blend with a particular group of players, and other combinations don't work so well. Like it or not, Chevy has put his seal of approval on this core of players, having signed, traded for or drafted almost all of them now. The onus is now on Noel to try to get them to perform.

 

[Gump Hasek]

It's more than a little funny that the quote you provide to support Noel's coaching abilities is a feel-good quote drawn from a former co-worker who was speaking to the Winnipeg media in Winnipeg about Winnipeg's coach. 24 hours before Noel tells the media that coaches are in a fraternity and support each other (when he was asked about Kevin Dineen's firing and the hiring of his former co-worker Peter Horachek). Not exactly the strongest quote to use to validate your argument. I cannot remember the last time an NHL coach criticized another coach's ability to coach; I do not think any of the roll that way.

Just curious about what you mean with "group-think". Do you apply this universally across the board when you see multiple people agree on something? Or is it only when it can be used against an argument you don't agree with? I'm just curious.

What you describe in your first paragraph as a "feel-good quote drawn from a former co-worker" can alternatively be viewed as an honest assessment of the abilities of a peer and former coworker.

With regard to your second comment, I'm using groupthink in this case to describe a subset of posters here who've arrived at their own conclusion about a topic sans critical evaluation of the topic. Their answer to what essentially is a weak roster is to fire the coach and to basically absolve the player group from blame. Trotz pointed out that Noel prepares his players well; that is the job of the coach. It is on the players to execute. Firing the coach still leaves you with a weak roster at the end of the day regardless.

I'm going out for the day now, carry on.

 

[Jet]

It's more than a little funny that the quote you provide to support Noel's coaching abilities is a feel-good quote drawn from a former co-worker who was speaking to the Winnipeg media in Winnipeg about Winnipeg's coach. 24 hours before Noel tells the media that coaches are in a fraternity and support each other (when he was asked about Kevin Dineen's firing and the hiring of his former co-worker Peter Horachek). Not exactly the strongest quote to use to validate your argument. I cannot remember the last time an NHL coach criticized another coach's ability to coach; I do not think any of the roll that way.

Just curious about what you mean with "group-think". Do you apply this universally across the board when you see multiple people agree on something? Or is it only when it can be used against an argument you don't agree with? I'm just curious.

I completely agree with this. I swear it's not group think though, we need a few more for that

 

[Whileee]

What you describe in your first paragraph as a "feel-good quote drawn from a former co-worker" can alternatively be viewed as an honest assessment of the abilities of a peer and former coworker.

With regard to your second comment, I'm using groupthink in this case to describe a subset of posters here who've arrived at their own conclusion about a topic sans critical evaluation of the topic. Their answer to what essentially is a weak roster is to fire the coach and to basically absolve the player group from blame. Trotz pointed out that Noel prepares his players well; that is the job of the coach. It is on the players to execute. Firing the coach still leaves you with a weak roster at the end of the day regardless.

I'm going out for the day now, carry on.

This "weak roster" has Chevy's fingerprints all over it now. I'm sure he doesn't think the job is over, but he has signed the core of this team, including Kane, to long-term contracts. If he has badly misjudged the core, then he should be fired. If not, then coaching has to come into question if the team is not performing well.

 

[KCjetsfan]

I completely agree with this. I swear it's not group think though, we need a few more for that

i was going to agree with you but i'm a little scared of life in the hive.

 

[Tintin's Ghost]

I agree with you but I would suggest that some of the older heads on here and around town suspect that Kane believes he already has arrived full fledged and therein lies the source of the latest "problem" we are debating.

Despite all the hype, Kane isn't a big name player in terms of scoring and accomplishments when compared to the rest of the league. There have been plenty of other players who have been all out healthy scratches and not complained, let alone one who may / may not have been injured.

Deharnais, Versteeg, Schenn, Booth, Yakupov

This isn't really a one-off situation though. There have been noted instances in the past 2 years of player-coach issues with regards to communication. It has at least partially impacted the departure of one player and resulted in special meetings with players and coach. There is reason to analyze and speculate when Kane says he does not know why he did not play and feels he was a healthy scratch. Is this an isolated incident and Kane being immature? Part of a bigger problem? That is what is being debated.

I agree that Kane is not in the upper echelon of players but he is in the next tier immediately down. Given that the Jets have no upper echelon players (well, maybe Buff once in awhile when the stars align) Kane is a "star" relative to the Jets team. He is certainly perceived that way by many fans.

 

[ATLhockey437]

Noel shoulda been fired after last season when the Jets where still in the playoff race but lost those crucial back to back games to Washington.

I don't get how he is still around. Any time I watch this team play, there is no drive/motivation from the players whatsoever.

 

[ICdave]

To listen to Evander Kane after practice listen here. (Doesn't really get addressed but first question is clearly an attempt to elicit a response)

Will have Noel up soon.

 

[Romang67]

I completely agree with this. I swear it's not group think though, we need a few more for that

Dammit, I agree with it too, are we a group think just patting each other's backs now?

Of course a coach isn't going to go out and say that another coach is bad. Can anyone give an example of this happening even ONCE in the NHL? Sheesh...

 

[Andy6]

Dammit, I agree with it too, are we a group think just patting each other's backs now?

Of course a coach isn't going to go out and say that another coach is bad. Can anyone give an example of this happening even ONCE in the NHL? Sheesh...

It's a bit different when you voluntarily go into detail about the specific reasons that you believe him to be an excellent coach.

 

[Andy6]

Noel shoulda been fired after last season when the Jets where still in the playoff race but lost those crucial back to back games to Washington.

How would you attract a new coach if you had a record of firing coaches because the team lost two games?

 

[james10011]

There are a lot of concerns about the makeup of this team, including the inability of players to consistently make smart decisions in their own end of the ice or neutral zone, ignoring their defensive responsibilities, an inability to get consistent scoring outside the top-4 forwards on the team - all of these take precedence over the coach.

All of these are direct responsibilities of the coach. Mental mistakes like the ones you describe speak to bad coaching as much as anything else.

 

[garret9]

One of us!
One of us!

 

[Romang67]

It's a bit different when you voluntarily go into detail about the specific reasons that you believe him to be an excellent coach.

Saying that he's an excellent teacher and that he has the team prepared isn't really going into specific reasons, especially considering he hasn't proved to be very good at either of those things so far with the Jets.

 

[gfnd]

If the jets trade kane, they may have the stupidest mgmt ever

 

[Jet]

Dammit, I agree with it too, are we a group think just patting each other's backs now?

Of course a coach isn't going to go out and say that another coach is bad. Can anyone give an example of this happening even ONCE in the NHL? Sheesh...

Don't dislocate your shoulder?? (wait, that's patting your own back lol)

 

[james10011]

Their answer to what essentially is a weak roster is to fire the coach and to basically absolve the player group from blame. Trotz pointed out that Noel prepares his players well; that is the job of the coach. It is on the players to execute. Firing the coach still leaves you with a weak roster at the end of the day regardless.

I think the burden of proof is on the people making the claim. In this case, there has been lots of analysis regarding his poor allocation of ice-time, poor use of goalies and poor communication skills.

Noel, who is supposedly a gifted talent developer, has driven a young, potential asset to Russia while repeatedly alienating the single most valuable player on this team. Bogosian looks every bit the bust he was labelled as pre-2012, and Scheiffele has been completely invisible. As of now, he's 1/4 at developing young talent, and that 1 just called him out publicly.

All of that before even mentioning that he's got a bad winning % and is on track to have us miss the playoffs for the third straight year.

I feel like a good number of coaches with much better credentials have gotten fired for a whole lot less. If someone with a history of success becomes available I'd be very intrigued.

 

[garret9]

If the seasonal progression of worse results on the Jets is due to roster instead of coaching than this is on the GMs head since almost all the players on the Jets were acquired by the GM.

If not, than maybe it is on the coach and maybe the roster isn't as weak as some are saying...

Or, also possible, maybe it's both.



PS Kane dominated that game... like absolutely destroyed... didn't look like he was recovering from something so bad he couldn't play a game 2 days ago...

 

[sully1410]

I think that its kind of an indication that Noel really is losingthe room. I don't think for a second that Kane is really the kind of guy that goes out of his way to have people not like him. While he may not think before he acts(ie. Money Phone), he may not have really thought about it if it was the common thought around the locker room.

 

[KingBogo]

I would like to take a bit of a different tact with this discussion. On Wednesday if Kane was medically ready to play what was Noel's motivation to make him a healthy scratch? He has had a solid season so far. There was no apparent reason to sit one of your top players if he was medically cleared to play. Personally Noel needs wins more than any single person in the organization. Please someone explain why he would jeopardize that.

 

[Unholy goalie]

I would like to take a bit of a different tact with this discussion. On Wednesday if Kane was medically ready to play what was Noel's motivation to make him a healthy scratch? He has had a solid season so far. There was no apparent reason to sit one of your top players if he was medically cleared to play. Personally Noel needs wins more than any single person in the organization. Please someone explain why he would jeopardize that.

The simple explanation is that Noel is an inept coach. He may have legitimately thought that the team was better off without Kane for that game. Some speculate that the decision could have been motivated by the idea that they won with the same lineup against Detroit, so why change it? This is largely regarded as bad coaching, and while we see it as "jeopardizing" wins, he may not.

I'm not saying that's what Noel was really thinking, but it is one explanation.

 

[james10011]

I would like to take a bit of a different tact with this discussion. On Wednesday if Kane was medically ready to play what was Noel's motivation to make him a healthy scratch? He has had a solid season so far. There was no apparent reason to sit one of your top players if he was medically cleared to play. Personally Noel needs wins more than any single person in the organization. Please someone explain why he would jeopardize that.

Although I don't necessarily believe it, I think some people are afraid Noel went with the lineup that won in det, as opposed to the lineup that had the best chance of winning.

 

[garret9]

Although I don't necessarily believe it, I think some people are afraid Noel went with the lineup that won in det, as opposed to the lineup that had the best chance of winning.

It wouldn't be the first time Noel has done that, although with Kane it would be far more dramatic of a difference.

Some will say well player ___ was dogging it or bad or whatever... but how many times have we seen guys sit a few games and go straight to the top 6 the next game they are back?

I'm also pretty sure that Noel's goaltender usage follows this pattern.

I'm just speculating, don't know for sure.

Either way the incentive for Kane to outright lie if he was briefed appropriately is equally weird as the incentive for Noel to sit one of his best players.