Speculation: and the plot thickens... (Evander Kane insists he was a healthy scratch vs. Chicago)

[PhilJets]

Kane is awesome!

 

[ihadtochangethename]

Kane is AWESOME!

 

[Gnova]

Kane is AWESOME!

At taking bad angle shots and costing the team possession time.

 

[Gnova]

Here we go again....another player(Burmi, etc.) in Noel's or on Noel's crap list. When is Noel going to start looking in the mirror and seeing the problem...he just does not have the type of grinders/muckers he wants on his team......turning highly talented players into something they cannot be.

Kane has been given top forward TOI minutes all season long. He is given PK and PP time. That is hardly indicative of being in someone's doghouse.

 

[PhilJets]

At taking bad angle shots and costing the team possession time.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I read a term on another forum about credibility capital. I think I'll use it here.

Several forum posters here have made it known that they dislike Noel and his coaching style. They have stated so many times and provided their reasons for it.

Could it be that these posters have so much credibility capital invested in the idea that Noel is the primary reason for the teams poor start to the season such that they fail to see something more apparent, namely a lack of talent? Could it be that Kane's public outburst regarding his status for the previous game serves as an opportunity to strengthen those posters' arguments (in their minds) that Noel is a poor communicator and mediocre coach overall in the absence of any real tangible evidence?

I think it does.

Over the past few weeks, it seems the lightening rod of criticism for the Winnipeg Jets has shifted from Pavalec to Noel. Who will it be next week? BUff? Tobey? The equipment manager?

There are a lot of concerns about the makeup of this team, including the inability of players to consistently make smart decisions in their own end of the ice or neutral zone, ignoring their defensive responsibilities, an inability to get consistent scoring outside the top-4 forwards on the team - all of these take precedence over the coach.

As for Kane, that was an extremely disappointing and immature thing for him to do. He still has some growing up to do..and he might not end up doing it with this organization if he keeps trying to undermine his coach through the media.

Great post, spot on, agreed in full.

 

[Huffer]

Great post, spot on, agreed in full.

Agree as well. This whole Kane injury thing tells me a little bit more about Kane, and a whole lot more about posters here.

 

[sipowicz]

Kane is AWESOME!

At wristing shots either wide of the net or directly into the centre of opposition goalies chest!

 

[PegCityPuck]

I just saw Kane's Nov. 8th pre game...

There is a whole lot of nothing going on here...Kane was dumbfounded by the fact that he didn't get to play. It was probably the first time in his life he was scratched. However, there story is a good story here for us to chew on until something more exciting happens. /drama

 

[ps241]

I read a term on another forum about credibility capital. I think I'll use it here.

Several forum posters here have made it known that they dislike Noel and his coaching style. They have stated so many times and provided their reasons for it.

Could it be that these posters have so much credibility capital invested in the idea that Noel is the primary reason for the teams poor start to the season such that they fail to see something more apparent, namely a lack of talent? Could it be that Kane's public outburst regarding his status for the previous game serves as an opportunity to strengthen those posters' arguments(in their minds) that Noel is a poor communicator and mediocre coach overall in the absence of any real tangibible evidence?

I think it does.

Over the past few weeks, it seems the lightening rod of criticism for the Winnipeg Jets has shifted from Pavalec to Noel. Who will it be next week? BUff? Tobey? The equipment manager?

There are a lot of concerns about the makeup of this team, including the inability of players to consistently make smart decisions in their own end of the ice or neutral zone, ignoring their defensive responsibilities, an inability to get consistent scoring outside the top-4 forwards on the team - all of these take precedence over the coach.

As for Kane, that was an extremely disappointing and immature thing for him to do. He still has some growing up to do..and he might not end up doing it with this organization if he keeps trying to undermine his coach through the media.

Last night at the game I heard quite a few fans talking about needing to fire the people in charge of sharpening the teams skates so I think we will need to expand our tent of blame.

 

[Andy6]

Last night at the game I heard quite a few fans talking about needing to fire the people in charge of sharpening the teams skates so I think we will need to expand our tent of blame.

Also the people who mine the iron that eventually makes its way into the sharpening machines. They need to go.

 

[Andy6]

I just saw Kane's Nov. 8th pre game...

There is a whole lot of nothing going on here...Kane was dumbfounded by the fact that he didn't get to play. It was probably the first time in his life he was scratched. However, there story is a good story here for us to chew on until something more exciting happens. /drama

Didn't he get scratched once in 2011-12? I kind of think so but maybe not. He thought he was healthy but teams these days are being extra careful. No doubt the fact that the Kaneless team had just played its best game of the year, with the highest shot total and the best offensive pressure, tipped the balance in favour of caution.

 

[KingBogo]

Last night at the game I heard quite a few fans talking about needing to fire the people in charge of sharpening the teams skates so I think we will need to expand our tent of blame.

Funny our group was discussing this as well. Lets start the blood letting with one of the equipment guys to show we mean business.

 

[Whileee]

I read a term on another forum about credibility capital. I think I'll use it here.

Several forum posters here have made it known that they dislike Noel and his coaching style. They have stated so many times and provided their reasons for it.

Could it be that these posters have so much credibility capital invested in the idea that Noel is the primary reason for the teams poor start to the season such that they fail to see something more apparent, namely a lack of talent? Could it be that Kane's public outburst regarding his status for the previous game serves as an opportunity to strengthen those posters' arguments(in their minds) that Noel is a poor communicator and mediocre coach overall in the absence of any real tangibible evidence?

I think it does.

Over the past few weeks, it seems the lightening rod of criticism for the Winnipeg Jets has shifted from Pavalec to Noel. Who will it be next week? BUff? Tobey? The equipment manager?

There are a lot of concerns about the makeup of this team, including the inability of players to consistently make smart decisions in their own end of the ice or neutral zone, ignoring their defensive responsibilities, an inability to get consistent scoring outside the top-4 forwards on the team - all of these take precedence over the coach.

As for Kane, that was an extremely disappointing and immature thing for him to do. He still has some growing up to do..and he might not end up doing it with this organization if he keeps trying to undermine his coach through the media.

Some fans / posters, including me, have concerns about Noel's coaching and are also aware of the team's shortcomings. It doesn't have to be either/or. Some posters have gone so far as to analyze ways in which Noel's decisions might be critiqued, even with the talent he has. The penchant for over-using Pavs (especially in back-to-back games is one example). Another is his tendency to flip lines and defense pairings around like a food blender. Some of us are not fully supportive of how he uses his roster. At times, some of us have also been concerned about how he communicates publicly about some players, and not others. Naturally, these are the perspectives of fans, and we don't know the whole story. But that's what discussion forums are for. It would be pretty boring around here if everyone just fell over themselves to support and defend the coach, regardless of team performance.

That brings me to the Kane situation. I don't think it's particularly healthy to pick sides, but the situation does indicate that there is at least a communication gap between Kane and Noel, and perhaps a deeper rift. That is a legitimate thing to comment on. Naturally, some will blame Kane (because they have "credibility capital" invested in Noel as a good coach ). Others will blame Noel because he bears some responsibility for ensuring that players understand why decisions are being made, and getting a comfort level with the players.

For my part, I think Kane was wrong to go public and stay public with his displeasure. However, I also have concerns about Noel as a coach, and in particular with how he relates to players.

 

[KCjetsfan]

Some fans / posters, including me, have concerns about Noel's coaching and are also aware of the team's shortcomings. It doesn't have to be either/or. Some posters have gone so far as to analyze ways in which Noel's decisions might be critiqued, even with the talent he has. The penchant for over-using Pavs (especially in back-to-back games is one example). Another is his tendency to flip lines and defense pairings around like a food blender. Some of us are not fully supportive of how he uses his roster. At times, some of us have also been concerned about how he communicates publicly about some players, and not others. Naturally, these are the perspectives of fans, and we don't know the whole story. But that's what discussion forums are for. It would be pretty boring around here if everyone just fell over themselves to support and defend the coach, regardless of team performance.

That brings me to the Kane situation. I don't think it's particularly healthy to pick sides, but the situation does indicate that there is at least a communication gap between Kane and Noel, and perhaps a deeper rift. That is a legitimate thing to comment on. Naturally, some will blame Kane (because they have "credibility capital" invested in Noel as a good coach ). Others will blame Noel because he bears some responsibility for ensuring that players understand why decisions are being made, and getting a comfort level with the players.

For my part, I think Kane was wrong to go public and stay public with his displeasure. However, I also have concerns about Noel as a coach, and in particular with how he relates to players.

Sums up my thoughts pretty well.

 

[Gump Hasek]

Some internet posters question Noel's coaching abilities, while at the same time, here is what one of his peers has to say about him:

Noel might not have a fan in Kane, but he certainly had one on the opposing bench.

Nashville boss Barry Trotz knows Noel well — Noel used to coach the Predators AHL team.

“He’s a tremendous coach,†Trotz said. “He’s a tremendous teacher. The one thing about the Jets is I know they are prepared. They’ve been given the tools to be prepared.â€

Trotz says firing the head coach is usually the easy way out, and lets the players off the hook.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/11/...have-taken-high-road-not-pouring-fuel-on-fire

Trotz' credibility capital>>>>>> HFJets group-think

 

[Jet]

I read a term on another forum about credibility capital. I think I'll use it here.

Several forum posters here have made it known that they dislike Noel and his coaching style. They have stated so many times and provided their reasons for it.

Could it be that these posters have so much credibility capital invested in the idea that Noel is the primary reason for the teams poor start to the season such that they fail to see something more apparent, namely a lack of talent? Could it be that Kane's public outburst regarding his status for the previous game serves as an opportunity to strengthen those posters' arguments(in their minds) that Noel is a poor communicator and mediocre coach overall in the absence of any real tangibible evidence?

I think it does.

Over the past few weeks, it seems the lightening rod of criticism for the Winnipeg Jets has shifted from Pavalec to Noel. Who will it be next week? BUff? Tobey? The equipment manager?

There are a lot of concerns about the makeup of this team, including the inability of players to consistently make smart decisions in their own end of the ice or neutral zone, ignoring their defensive responsibilities, an inability to get consistent scoring outside the top-4 forwards on the team - all of these take precedence over the coach.

As for Kane, that was an extremely disappointing and immature thing for him to do. He still has some growing up to do..and he might not end up doing it with this organization if he keeps trying to undermine his coach through the media.

I think you are oversimplifying a bit. Many people who think it's time for a coaching change (obviously I am in this camp) realize this team is not perfect. I personally believe that we should be challenging for the cup or anything. I do, however firmly believe that we should be right in the mix for a playoff spot, which we are not to this point.

Ignore our record for a second. The reason I do not like Noel is not because the jets are 7-9-2 or whatever we are atm. I don't like the roster decisions he makes. I do not like his player usage or tactics in games. I do not like the way he doesn't seem to adjust to what the other team is doing to us, nor can he get his PP proficient (despite obvious weapons that should make us at least average)

I gave Noel the benefit of the doubt for 2 years. I didn't want to be rash, I wanted to see if he could get this group to play a consistently solid game. That is independent of scoreboard result. I mean a game where the players play a coherent system, and play a good team game. I don't see that on a game to game basis and never have. That is on the coach.

There are holes in this roster. There are underperforming players. These problems need to be addressed. I think a coaching change would solve a lot of these problems. Another coach would try to minimize poor players (or performing players) impact on the team, not play them more and mis-utilize them.

As for Kane, I think its a difference in philosophy. The old school keep your mouth shut for the sake of the team vs. someone trying to show some passion. Yes, it was a bit selfish, but if you are going to be an Alpha dog scorer in the NHL, you have to be a bit selfish. You don't want players railing against the coach every day, but showing some emotion and investment in the way the team is performing isn't a bad thing.

 

[Analyst365]

...
As for Kane, I think its a difference in philosophy. The old school keep your mouth shut for the sake of the team vs. someone trying to show some passion. Yes, it was a bit selfish, but if you are going to be an Alpha dog scorer in the NHL, you have to be a bit selfish. You don't want players railing against the coach every day, but showing some emotion and investment in the way the team is performing isn't a bad thing.

I keep seeing this beast/alpha dog/winner stuff but, until that actually happens, it should be footnoted with 'wannabee'.

We are talking about someone who can't crack the top 50 in NHL scoring yet. And yes there is an effort level which is commendable, but it is a far cry from alpha dog leadership.

And no this doesn't make me a hater, just someone who sticks his head up and looks around the league / the scoring charts/ the standings every once in a while. Would be nice if Kane and his loyal following did the same.

 

[Jet]

Some internet posters question Noel's coaching abilities, while at the same time, here is what one of his peers has to say about him:


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/11/...have-taken-high-road-not-pouring-fuel-on-fire

Trotz' credibility capital>>>>>> HFJets group-think

Right, so just because a group of people think differently than you its some kind of group think. Hogwash. Isn't it possible that a bunch of people just came to the same damned conclusion because it's the correct one? I for one don't let others here give me my voice. I learn from others on this forum which I am thankful for. I've been wrong plenty of times and have been proven so by fellow posters, but realizing and accepting that takes an open mind.

Demeaning others by suggesting they are a bunch of sheep isn't a good way to get your post across, that's for sure. As for Trotz comments. They are friends and worked together. I'd take his comments with a grain of salt. People often say kind things about their colleagues. It's proper decorum.

 

[Jet]

I keep seeing this beast/alpha dog/winner stuff but, until that actually happens, it should be footnoted with 'wannabee'.

We are talking about someone who can't crack the top 50 in NHL scoring yet. And yes there is an effort level which is commendable, but it is a far cry from alpha dog leadership.

And no this doesn't make me a hater, just someone who sticks his head up and looks around the league / the scoring charts/ the standings every once in a while. Would be nice if Kane and his loyal following did the same.

What we tend to forget though is that Kane is still VERY YOUNG. Yes he is on his second contract but really, he still has maturing to do. His attitude is what makes him want to win, want to have the puck, and want to score. Once he grows up a bit and learns leadership and team skills he will be that much better of a player. I believe he will be a Captain one day, or at least have a letter.

He has already shown this year a willingness to share the puck we haven't seen before. He is growing and improving as a player.

 

[Jet]

Some fans / posters, including me, have concerns about Noel's coaching and are also aware of the team's shortcomings. It doesn't have to be either/or. Some posters have gone so far as to analyze ways in which Noel's decisions might be critiqued, even with the talent he has. The penchant for over-using Pavs (especially in back-to-back games is one example). Another is his tendency to flip lines and defense pairings around like a food blender. Some of us are not fully supportive of how he uses his roster. At times, some of us have also been concerned about how he communicates publicly about some players, and not others. Naturally, these are the perspectives of fans, and we don't know the whole story. But that's what discussion forums are for. It would be pretty boring around here if everyone just fell over themselves to support and defend the coach, regardless of team performance.

That brings me to the Kane situation. I don't think it's particularly healthy to pick sides, but the situation does indicate that there is at least a communication gap between Kane and Noel, and perhaps a deeper rift. That is a legitimate thing to comment on. Naturally, some will blame Kane (because they have "credibility capital" invested in Noel as a good coach ). Others will blame Noel because he bears some responsibility for ensuring that players understand why decisions are being made, and getting a comfort level with the players.

For my part, I think Kane was wrong to go public and stay public with his displeasure. However, I also have concerns about Noel as a coach, and in particular with how he relates to players.

Good post. I do think the truth is in the middle somewhere. I don't agree with Kane's actions in a broader sense but knowing the history and hearing some other stuff (not confirmable so won't comment here) I can imagine that there is some frustration from the players with the state of things right now. Might not have been the right way to go about it, but when something is broken and you deal with it every single day and it looks like the people who have the power to change it won't, you are eventually going to break. I am sure people have been in workplaces like that.

 

[Gump Hasek]

Right, so just because a group of people think differently than you its some kind of group think. Hogwash. Isn't it possible that a bunch of people just came to the same damned conclusion because it's the correct one? I for one don't let others here give me my voice. I learn from others on this forum which I am thankful for. I've been wrong plenty of times and have been proven so by fellow posters, but realizing and accepting that takes an open mind.

Demeaning others by suggesting they are a bunch of sheep isn't a good way to get your post across, that's for sure. As for Trotz comments. They are friends and worked together. I'd take his comments with a grain of salt. People often say kind things about their colleagues. It's proper decorum.

I didn't demean anyone. I merely pointed out in an abstract manner that perhaps the opinions of his peers, those who've worked directly alongside him in this case, carry more weight in my own view than do the opinions of messsage-board posters who operate in a comparative vacuum of knowledge about the man and his techniques. You are still free to believe and post anything you wish, but on this topic, I personally would assign far more weight and relevance to the views of his colleague versus those of Noel's online detractors.

 

[Jet]

I didn't demean anyone. I merely pointed out in an abstract manner that perhaps the opinions of his peers, those who've worked directly alongside him in this case, carry more weight in my own view than do the opinions of messsage-board posters who operate in a comparative vacuum of knowledge about the man and his techniques. You are still free to believe and post anything you wish, but on this topic, I personally would assign far more weight and relevance to the views of his colleague versus those of Noel's online detractors.

I guess you don't appreciate the connotation of the term 'group-think'. I think if you polled people you would get the answer that group think is an opinion formed because others believe it and not a conclusion you have come to independently. In other words, being sheep. If you would have said "Trotz credibility capital>>>>>>>large group of HF posters" it wouldn't have been insulting.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I guess you don't appreciate the connotation of the term 'group-think'. I think if you polled people you would get the answer that group think is an opinion formed because others believe it and not a conclusion you have come to independently. In other words, being sheep. If you would have said "Trotz credibility capital>>>>>>>large group of HF posters" it wouldn't have been insulting.

Well, we have differing opinions then. I'm more than fine with that, though it appears that your own mileage may vary. Cool.

 

[Analyst365]

What we tend to forget though is that Kane is still VERY YOUNG. Yes he is on his second contract but really, he still has maturing to do. His attitude is what makes him want to win, want to have the puck, and want to score. Once he grows up a bit and learns leadership and team skills he will be that much better of a player. I believe he will be a Captain one day, or at least have a letter.

He has already shown this year a willingness to share the puck we haven't seen before. He is growing and improving as a player.

I agree with you but I would suggest that some of the older heads on here and around town suspect that Kane believes he already has arrived full fledged and therein lies the source of the latest "problem" we are debating.

Despite all the hype, Kane isn't a big name player in terms of scoring and accomplishments when compared to the rest of the league. There have been plenty of other players who have been all out healthy scratches and not complained, let alone one who may / may not have been injured.

Deharnais, Versteeg, Schenn, Booth, Yakupov