Analyzing Dubas's performance - (Full Analysis)

[ottomaddox]

Babcock: A Full Analysis Thread

(working title of course)

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Really wondered that myself. It's not like Holl was some developing green youngster either. He's been in the organization for a very long time and likely was what he was for quite awhile. Why Babcock decided not to give him any reasonable tryout was ridiculous.

I loved it when Holl had 2 goals in 2 games, a 5-0 goal differential at 5v5, and the best underlying numbers on the team and then didn't get any more games that year. To be clear, I am not saying he was for sure an amazing defenseman based on two games as it's a very small sample. But to play that well and not even get more opportunity is just crazy, especially considering right defense was such a weakness

 

[LeafsNation75]

I loved it when Holl had 2 goals in 2 games, a 5-0 goal differential at 5v5, and the best underlying numbers on the team and then didn't get any more games that year. To be clear, I am not saying he was for sure an amazing defenseman based on two games as it's a very small sample. But to play that well and not even get more opportunity is just crazy, especially considering right defense was such a weakness

Not only did Holl score 2 goals in his first NHL 2 games, it was on consecutive shots because he had 1 shot on goal in both those games.

New York Islanders at Toronto Maple Leafs Box Score — January 31, 2018 | Hockey-Reference.com

Toronto Maple Leafs at New York Rangers Box Score — February 1, 2018 | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Menzinger]

How about the way he talked about Spezza during training camp saying he didn't know what his role would be and making him a healthy scratch on opening night. However he loved Patrick Marleau and always played him despite being older than Spezza.

The Spezza thing was a whole other level of weird.

Babcock was throwing shade on Spezza before camp even started.

Babcock was a coach (and to be fair, hardly the only in history) to have "his guys" and didnt have much time for folks outisde that group, especially when it came to depth players

 

[LeafsNation75]

The Spezza thing was a whole other level of weird.

Babcock was throwing shade on Spezza before camp even started.

Babcock was a coach (and to be fair, hardly the only in history) to have "his guys" and didnt have much time for folks outisde that group, especially when it came to depth players

When Dubas said in his press conference after last years playoffs that Babcock needed to change his methods, that should have included how he treated the players. Maybe Spezza wasn't one of "his guys" however since Dubas was the GM he had a right to sign whoever he wanted. Plus like I said before he was younger compared to Marleau and I found it weird how he didn't know what role Spezza would play.

Plus I guess maybe all of that was something Babcock did when Dubas traded Par Lindholm for Nic Petan during the 2019 trade deadline. Remember how Babcock played Lindholm all the time despite being on the 4th line. After he was traded he only played Petan a total of 5 games and in one of them his only goal turned out to be a game winning goal in his debut against Buffalo.

 

[The CyNick]

LHD wasn't a position of need, that's why Travis Dermott was our #1LD for a quarter of the year lol.

The GA must be 100% the defense, not the fact that Andersen had exactly one month better than .904 this year.

So Andersen suddenly forgot how to play the position? Or maybe the guys Dubas brought in (Ceci, Barrie, etc.) were awful and that greatly contributed to FA's struggles. No way to know for certain, but I know where I stand.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So Andersen suddenly forgot how to play the position? Or maybe the guys Dubas brought in (Ceci, Barrie, etc.) were awful and that greatly contributed to FA's struggles. No way to know for certain, but I know where I stand.

So how do explain Andersen's shaky performances in Game 7 against Boston in 2018 and 2019 when Ceci and Barrie were still playing for Ottawa and Colorado.

 

[The CyNick]

I know your a Kyle Dubas hater but why don't you listen to this logic. When he traded for Muzzin that filled a need on the Leafs defense. Also you sound exactly like Mike Babcock did when the first thing he said about Muzzin is that he's a LHD.

Lou Lamoriello never made any in season trades for a defenseman when they made the playoffs in 2017 and 2018. His moves was for #4 Centres in Brian Boyle in 2017 and Tomas Plekanec in 2018.

Maybe I sound like Babs because we both watched Muzzin play and knew what side he played on. I remember when he was acquitted tons of people on here were like "oh don't worry he can play the right side". I remember thinking, um no, he rarely plays the right side. But that's the curse of actually watching the vast majority of the NHL sked every night.

You would have to ask Lou about deals for D that were available to him. It's possible he didn't like any of the deals proposed. Dubas acquired Ceci, Muzzin and Barrie at a cost of Kadri, Rosen, 3rd, 1st, Zaitsev, and two 2nd rd selections. The net effect of losing all those assets was only being ahead of five teams in the GA/G. Awful results. Likely only Muzzin and his hefty price tag during declining years will be left over. That seems like gross negligence to me. At the very least proves Dubas is horrible at evaluating talent.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Maybe I sound like Babs because we both watched Muzzin play and knew what side he played on. I remember when he was acquitted tons of people on here were like "oh don't worry he can play the right side". I remember thinking, um no, he rarely plays the right side. But that's the curse of actually watching the vast majority of the NHL sked every night.

You would have to ask Lou about deals for D that were available to him. It's possible he didn't like any of the deals proposed. Dubas acquired Ceci, Muzzin and Barrie at a cost of Kadri, Rosen, 3rd, 1st, Zaitsev, and two 2nd rd selections. The net effect of losing all those assets was only being ahead of five teams in the GA/G. Awful results. Likely only Muzzin and his hefty price tag during declining years will be left over. That seems like gross negligence to me. At the very least proves Dubas is horrible at evaluating talent.

So you would have been fine with keeping Zaitsev who had 5 years and $4.5 million AAV remaining on his contract and with a Modified NTC that kicked in for the 2019-20 season.

 

[The CyNick]

So you would have been fine with keeping Zaitsev who had 5 years and $4.5 million AAV remaining on his contract and with a Modified NTC that kicked in for the 2019-20 season.

I don't think Zaitsev is as bad as some out here. I watched him in Ottawa, considering how bad Ottawa was, he seemed fine out there. If it were me, I would have tried to build him back up before trading him. Lou was always more creative at getting rid of problems. And you can't look at deals in isolation like that. I just think Lou would have had a better long term plan for that position.

Look at what he did with Dion. Everyone on here was saying Dion was impossible to trade. Lou managed to trade him and got a positive return. I have no question he could have done the same with Zaits if needed.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Gardiner was better than Muzzin overall.

I guess you forgot the mistakes Jake Gardiner made in their last two Game 7's against Boston.

 

[deletethis]

It wasn't only Justin Holl who Babcock refused to play, at least last season and not this year.

When Frankie Corrado played for the Leafs remember how Babcock would always make him a healthy scratch.

Now this other player wasn't a defenseman, however Babcock did the same thing to Josh Leivo and it got the point where Dubas traded him to Vancouver for virtually nothing in return.

He wasn't wrong about Corrado. And Leivo has been utterly replaceable. Fortunately Holl didn't get impatient.

 

[Menzinger]

Your praise of Muzzin is like bragging about being the tallest midget. Nobody in the league ever says I'm afraid of going into the corner with Muzzin. Muzzin will throw a decent hit every 4-5 games, but in terms of being a physical presence, he's average at best. Just stands out among the smurfs we employ back there. Defensively he's often a trainwreck. And he's a poor decision maker. Multiple times this past season he singlehandedly cost us games.

Gardiner was better than Muzzin overall. Polak was better. Hainsey actually managed to make Reilly look like a stud, so he's better. I could go on.

This is demonstrably false by any metric youd like to use.

Polak is a bottom pairing D man and claiming he is or was better than Muzzin is just pure nonsense. Muzzin is demonstrateably better than any of the guys you mentioned save for Rielly.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I don't think Zaitsev is as bad as some out here. I watched him in Ottawa, considering how bad Ottawa was, he seemed fine out there. If it were me, I would have tried to build him back up before trading him. Lou was always more creative at getting rid of problems. And you can't look at deals in isolation like that. I just think Lou would have had a better long term plan for that position.

Look at what he did with Dion. Everyone on here was saying Dion was impossible to trade. Lou managed to trade him and got a positive return. I have no question he could have done the same with Zaits if needed.

Zaitsev had asked Dubas for a trade so there would be no time to build him up, especially since Dubas didn't need his permission on what team he went to since his Modified NTC had not started at the time he was traded.

As for when Lou traded Phaneuf to Ottawa you seem to forget that the Senators was on his 12 team approved trade list. So that made it easier to trade him, along with taking on the the contracts of Jarden Cowen, Colin Greening, and Milan Michaelk which Ottawa was desperate to get rid of.

 

[The CyNick]

I guess you forgot the mistakes Jake Gardiner made in their last two Game 7's against Boston.

You really posted those?

I don't judge a player on a couple games. Over the entirety of his Leafs tenure, Gardiner was been better than Muzzin has so far. If Muzzin is an effective #2 for the next four years like he's currently being paid, then my opinion might change. Right now, he's just a guy taking up a locker.

 

[LeafsNation75]

This is demonstrably false by any metric youd like to use.

Polak is a bottom pairing D man and claiming he is or was better than Muzzin is just pure nonsense. Muzzin is demonstrateably better than any of the guys you mentioned save for Rielly.

It's just more evidence that those players were great since Lou was the one who acquired them.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You really posted those?

I don't judge a player on a couple games. Over the entirety of his Leafs tenure, Gardiner was been better than Muzzin has so far. If Muzzin is an effective #2 for the next four years like he's currently being paid, then my opinion might change. Right now, he's just a guy taking up a locker.

A couple of games. Those mistakes happened in Game 7 in both 2018 and 2019, which Toronto lost and got eliminated from the playoffs.

 

[The CyNick]

Zaitsev had asked Dubas for a trade so there would be no time to build him up, especially since Dubas didn't need his permission on what team he went to since his Modified NTC had not started at the time he was traded.

As for when Lou traded Phaneuf to Ottawa you seem to forget that the Senators was on his 12 team approved trade list. So that made it easier to trade him, along with taking on the the contracts of Jarden Cowen, Colin Greening, and Milan Michaelk which Ottawa was desperate to get rid of.

That's the problem with Dubas. He gives in to everything. You want to be paid like a top 5 player, but you haven't cracked 90 points AND you only want five years? Okay sure, take it all.

I wouldn't care what Zaitsev asked for. You sign a deal, you have to honor it. You want to retire to avoid playing here, go for it. Lou would have either got the coaches to build up the player or work out a more advantageous deal for the team.

 

[Martin Skoula]

So Andersen suddenly forgot how to play the position? Or maybe the guys Dubas brought in (Ceci, Barrie, etc.) were awful and that greatly contributed to FA's struggles. No way to know for certain, but I know where I stand.

Crazy idea but goalies are inconsistent. Price went from a Hart winner to a .900 goalie in the span of a few seasons without Montreal's defense changing much at all, is that just black magic?

 

[Menzinger]

You really posted those?

I don't judge a player on a couple games. Over the entirety of his Leafs tenure, Gardiner was been better than Muzzin has so far. If Muzzin is an effective #2 for the next four years like he's currently being paid, then my opinion might change. Right now, he's just a guy taking up a locker.

You need to update your salary expectations if you think 4 million aav is #2 D man money....

 

[The CyNick]

This is demonstrably false by any metric youd like to use.

Polak is a bottom pairing D man and claiming he is or was better than Muzzin is just pure nonsense. Muzzin is demonstrateably better than any of the guys you mentioned save for Rielly.

Calling Polak a bottom pair guy misses the fact that he was often out there in key situations at the end of games. I could be wrong (let's face it, likely not), but I believe he was out there at the end of the game against Pitt when we clinched the playoffs that year. He was a force in that game.

That's what good coaches and GMs understand. Some guys may only give you 15 mins a night, but they are responsible and can be counted on in clutch situations. The stat junkies will never be able to figure that out.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That's the problem with Dubas. He gives in to everything. You want to be paid like a top 5 player, but you haven't cracked 90 points AND you only want five years? Okay sure, take it all.

I wouldn't care what Zaitsev asked for. You sign a deal, you have to honor it. You want to retire to avoid playing here, go for it. Lou would have either got the coaches to build up the player or work out a more advantageous deal for the team.

So all of the sudden Dubas now caves to the players because he honored Zaitsev's request of a trade. I'm not even sure how to respond to a comment like that.

 

[The CyNick]

Crazy idea but goalies are inconsistent. Price went from a Hart winner to a .900 goalie in the span of a few seasons without Montreal's defense changing much at all, is that just black magic?

Could be any number of reasons. Down years for players in front of him. Maybe personal issues. Lots of possibilities.

And even if it is all Andy, then you would expect a good GM would have a solid backup ready to pick up the slack. Lou knew that and got McBackup. Dubas tossed McBackup to the curb and went all in with Sparks and potentially cost us a trip to the Cup Finals. Ouch.

 

[The CyNick]

So all of the sudden Dubas now caves to the players because he honored Zaitsev's request of a trade. I'm not even sure how to respond to a comment like that.

No because he's generally awful at negotiating. Have you seen the deals he signed? You see the Barrie trade? Yikes!

 

[Martin Skoula]

Could be any number of reasons. Down years for players in front of him. Maybe personal issues. Lots of possibilities.

And even if it is all Andy, then you would expect a good GM would have a solid backup ready to pick up the slack. Lou knew that and got McBackup. Dubas tossed McBackup to the curb and went all in with Sparks and potentially cost us a trip to the Cup Finals. Ouch.

You mean the same McBackup that just put up a .906 behind a much better Tampa defense? Ouch.