An Anti-Attendance Thread: Info on Gate Receipts

Enstrom39

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Atlanta at $ 488k, even. With a huge price increase, and a static gate, there are alot less paying fans this season. The biggest surprise for me, the Thrashers are in serious trouble which explains the trade deadline deals.

As a previous posted noted gate revenues only total to roughly half of CBA defined revenues, so that means there are very significant sums of money flowing in to teams that are not included in these data on ticket sales.

One of those additional sources of revenue is corporate support. I've heard that Atlanta ranks in the top 1/3 of the league which doesn't surprise when you consider that many major corporations have their world HQ here in the metro area. This is one factor that helps Atlanta sustain itself in the face of modest attendance. I'm willing to bet that Atlanta brings in more corporate support money than Edmonton or Calgary--something not mentioned in the Toronto story.

Another factor are concessions and parking. Again here in Atlanta the ownership group also owns the building which means that money ultimately goes into their pockets--something that is not always true in other cities.

On the other hand, local TV and radio revenue is probably next to nothing giving the ratings in Atlanta. So that is one area where teams in the NYC are have a big advantage over Atlanta and other markets.

Irish Blues: have you read the CBA enough to give us a synopsis of what else might fall under league defined revenues? National TV money of course, also money for NHL merchandise--there must be additional things I'm forgetting right now.
 

Fugu

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As a previous posted noted gate revenues only total to roughly half of CBA defined revenues, so that means there are very significant sums of money flowing in to teams that are not included in these data on ticket sales.


The fact that a previous poster posted an opinion, even a well-reasoned one, should not be taken as a fact. You later state you aren't even certain what comprises all CBA-defined revenues, yet nevertheless you are stating with absolute certainty that gate revenues comprise half of revenues.

On a sidenote, the chart listing gate receipts states these are "Net of Taxes"... anyone else catch that?
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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And the minute he hits those conditions, the option year goes from a contingent, non vested option (not included in his Averaged Salary calculation) to a vested option (included) and his cap hit changes.

More work for you, IB, O Joy, O Joy, ...
Actually, it won't change his cap hit at all; Washington would still be on the hook for their part, the Rangers would only get charged with the part they're responsible for paying.

I checked on that already. ;)

Irish Blues: have you read the CBA enough to give us a synopsis of what else might fall under league defined revenues? National TV money of course, also money for NHL merchandise--there must be additional things I'm forgetting right now.
Ask kdb209 - he's the resident CBA guru. I'm just the site capologist.

The fact that a previous poster posted an opinion, even a well-reasoned one, should not be taken as a fact. You later state you aren't even certain what comprises all CBA-defined revenues, yet nevertheless you are stating with absolute certainty that gate revenues comprise half of revenues.

On a sidenote, the chart listing gate receipts states these are "Net of Taxes"... anyone else catch that?
Ah, I missed that - nice catch!

Well ... that changes a few things - because while most totals should be multiplied by about 1.05 to 1.07 (to reflect a 5% or 6% ticket tax - which is probably where most teams are) to get to gross ticket receipts, the Blues numbers should be multiplied by 1.138 to reflect the 13.8% in taxes they must pay on ticket sales.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Fugu and IB, can you explain to me why you may feel that the "net of taxes" qualification is significant? It escapes me why added sales taxes sould be taken into account. They are collected and remitted. They are thus properly excluded from revenue. I believe that is what is required under GAAP.
 

Fugu

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Fugu and IB, can you explain to me why you may feel that the "net of taxes" qualification is significant? It escapes me why added sales taxes sould be taken into account. They are collected and remitted. They are thus properly excluded from revenue. I believe that is what is required under GAAP.

It just complicates things in some cases. I had to dig up my season ticket invoice, but the taxes apparently are included in the face value in the case of the Wings. So they deduct the sales taxes from that vs. adding it as IB suggests the Blues do. If we go by fan reported ticket prices to compare ticket prices, I guess now we have to know if the is inclusive or exclusive of sales tax! I think we'd just better stick to the numbers provided in the chart...
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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Fugu and IB, can you explain to me why you may feel that the "net of taxes" qualification is significant? It escapes me why added sales taxes sould be taken into account. They are collected and remitted. They are thus properly excluded from revenue. I believe that is what is required under GAAP.
Typically, it wouldn't be significant if all teams paid roughly the same tax rates on tickets - but where they don't (St. Louis is a notable example; the Blues, Cardinals and Rams have the highest ticket tax of any pro sports teams in North America), then numbers can be distorted a bit. Granted, the net receipts are what teams actually have to pay for expenses, but just using the numbers as presented can be a little misleading for a few teams.
 

Fugu

Guest
Defining Hockey Related Revenues...

So I found a way to ruin a perfectly good morning, and also to remind myself why I'm happy I never pursued a career in accounting or law....

Starting on page 160 of the CBA, the opening paragraph sets the tone:

The parties have described Hockey Related Revenues with a nonexhaustive list of Hockey Related Revenues (net of Direct Costs as defined herein, where specified herein), in order to permit the inclusion of new revenue streams (net of Direct Costs where agreed upon between the parties herein, or, failing agreement, by ruling of the System Arbitrator), to be included automatically, without a new or separate negotiation, subject to the provisions below.

The rest of paragraphs (A - U) painstakingly itemize the definition of each revenue category, while leaving the option for adding 'new' forms of revenue in the future. The treatment of luxury box suites is interesting as it is reported at 100% of sales and no netting of costs as many of the other categories are (except that individual seats are treated like other gate receipts...); concessions are all Net of Direct Cost; media broadcast receipts also are Net of Direct Cost with individual limits on what those costs can be (e.g., not to exceed $3 MM for NHL Networks ), etc. :surrender
 

bleed_oil

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Aug 16, 2005
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As a previous posted noted gate revenues only total to roughly half of CBA defined revenues, so that means there are very significant sums of money flowing in to teams that are not included in these data on ticket sales.

One of those additional sources of revenue is corporate support. I've heard that Atlanta ranks in the top 1/3 of the league which doesn't surprise when you consider that many major corporations have their world HQ here in the metro area. This is one factor that helps Atlanta sustain itself in the face of modest attendance. I'm willing to bet that Atlanta brings in more corporate support money than Edmonton or Calgary--something not mentioned in the Toronto story.

Another factor are concessions and parking. Again here in Atlanta the ownership group also owns the building which means that money ultimately goes into their pockets--something that is not always true in other cities.

On the other hand, local TV and radio revenue is probably next to nothing giving the ratings in Atlanta. So that is one area where teams in the NYC are have a big advantage over Atlanta and other markets.

Irish Blues: have you read the CBA enough to give us a synopsis of what else might fall under league defined revenues? National TV money of course, also money for NHL merchandise--there must be additional things I'm forgetting right now.

Do you have any idea about the size of the oil boom in Alberta right now? I would guess a good portion of ticket sales in Luxury suits and the lower bowl in both Edmonon and Calgary are to Energy Companies. I know that I was in Petro-Canada corporate seats in the 7 row a few months back. I dont know much about Atlanta but I doubt the economic growth and the amount of money available to coporations there is on par with whats happening here in Alberta right now... pretty misinformed statement on your part IMO
 

Enstrom39

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Do you have any idea about the size of the oil boom in Alberta right now? I would guess a good portion of ticket sales in Luxury suits and the lower bowl in both Edmonon and Calgary are to Energy Companies. I know that I was in Petro-Canada corporate seats in the 7 row a few months back. I dont know much about Atlanta but I doubt the economic growth and the amount of money available to coporations there is on par with whats happening here in Alberta right now... pretty misinformed statement on your part IMO

Why don't you get off your high horse unless you have some facts to share with us? So tell me what exactly do you know about corporate support in Atlanta?

Sure oil may be up in Alberta right now and you may have gotten some free tickets this season, but over the last 5 years how many of those companies have invested in suites or large blocks of season tickets in the lower bowl? How much for board advertising? Unless you know the answer to these questions I'm not sure you have much of a point other than oil companies are doing well at the moment.

The economy in Atlanta has been very stable and very robust over the last five years. Atlanta is home to Fortune 500 companies--how many of those are Alberta exactly? Our corporate support has invested for the long haul. UPS, Home Depot, Delta spend a lot of money buying suites, sections of season tickets, board ads, etc. Sounds to me like you're fairly uninformed about Atlanta.
 

Enstrom39

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The fact that a previous poster posted an opinion, even a well-reasoned one, should not be taken as a fact. You later state you aren't even certain what comprises all CBA-defined revenues, yet nevertheless you are stating with absolute certainty that gate revenues comprise half of revenues.

Ever heard of estimating? You don't need to be an accountant to see that these reported half-season gate revenues will not total up to the projected CBA total league revenues, ergo money is coming from other sources. Thus we are trying to evaluate team income with only part needed data.
 

bleed_oil

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Aug 16, 2005
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Why don't you get off your high horse unless you have some facts to share with us? So tell me what exactly do you know about corporate support in Atlanta?

Sure oil may be up in Alberta right now and you may have gotten some free tickets this season, but over the last 5 years how many of those companies have invested in suites or large blocks of season tickets in the lower bowl? How much for board advertising? Unless you know the answer to these questions I'm not sure you have much of a point other than oil companies are doing well at the moment.

The economy in Atlanta has been very stable and very robust over the last five years. Atlanta is home to Fortune 500 companies--how many of those are Alberta exactly? Our corporate support has invested for the long haul. UPS, Home Depot, Delta spend a lot of money buying suites, sections of season tickets, board ads, etc. Sounds to me like you're fairly uninformed about Atlanta.
I'm sorry I missed the palce where you were stating all your encyclopedia of references regarding the Thrashers coporate support.

I can tell you that solid references from earlier on this thread prove that the Thrashers don't seem to be doing too well in Atlanta.

My point is'nt that Oil companies in Alberta are doing well right now, its that theres is a lot of money here right now due to the energy boom. The proof is clear from the ticket prices here and how our rinks are constantly sold out not to mention a myriad of other economic indicators.
 

Enstrom39

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I'm sorry I missed the palce where you were stating all your encyclopedia of references regarding the Thrashers coporate support.

I can tell you that solid references from earlier on this thread prove that the Thrashers don't seem to be doing too well in Atlanta.

I never disputed the attendance numbers, I simply pointed out that gate revenues are the whole picture and in the area of corporate support the Thrashers rank higher than the most NHL teams.

My source was said the Thashers are in the top 1/3 of the NHL in corporate support. I'm not just making this up, if you doubt me, keep in mind that I had the details of the Tkachuk trade up on my blog before they were released by most media outlets.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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kdb209 said:
And the minute he hits those conditions, the option year goes from a contingent, non vested option (not included in his Averaged Salary calculation) to a vested option (included) and his cap hit changes.

More work for you, IB, O Joy, O Joy, ...
Actually, it won't change his cap hit at all; Washington would still be on the hook for their part, the Rangers would only get charged with the part they're responsible for paying.

I checked on that already. ;)
It won't change the salary split with the Caps - the Rags will still only be on the hook for a portion of Jagr's salary - but the cap hit for that portion could change if the salary for the option year is greater than or less than the contract's post lockout Averaged Salary.

If an option is not yet vested and is contingent on some future action by the player or team (games played, etc), then the option year is not included in the calculation of the Averaged Salary for the contract (the players annual cap hit). As soon as the option becomes vested, the option year is included in the Averaged Salary - if the option year salary is greater than the post-lockout average, his cap hit would go up, if it is less, it will go down.

The Falconer said:
Irish Blues: have you read the CBA enough to give us a synopsis of what else might fall under league defined revenues? National TV money of course, also money for NHL merchandise--there must be additional things I'm forgetting right now.
Ask kdb209 - he's the resident CBA guru. I'm just the site capologist.
Fugu has already described the exquisite joy of reading Article 50.1 (Definition of Hockey Related Revenues), so I will leave it at that.

Fugu said:
The fact that a previous poster posted an opinion, even a well-reasoned one, should not be taken as a fact. You later state you aren't even certain what comprises all CBA-defined revenues, yet nevertheless you are stating with absolute certainty that gate revenues comprise half of revenues.

On a sidenote, the chart listing gate receipts states these are "Net of Taxes"... anyone else catch that?
Ah, I missed that - nice catch!

Well ... that changes a few things - because while most totals should be multiplied by about 1.05 to 1.07 (to reflect a 5% or 6% ticket tax - which is probably where most teams are) to get to gross ticket receipts, the Blues numbers should be multiplied by 1.138 to reflect the 13.8% in taxes they must pay on ticket sales.
As has been stated below, taxes do not have a direct impact on revenues - they are collected and remitted to the appropriate gov't agency - and are properly excluded from revenues.

Where they do have an impact is that they limit ticket revenues (vis a vis Supply & Demand and Market Elasticity), assuming tickets are properly priced to what the market will bare. Customers just care about the total price (and don'treally care that the 13.8% tax goes to someone other than the Blues) and will make purchasing decisions accordingly.
 

bleed_oil

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Aug 16, 2005
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I never disputed the attendance numbers, I simply pointed out that gate revenues are the whole picture and in the area of corporate support the Thrashers rank higher than the most NHL teams.

My source was said the Thashers are in the top 1/3 of the NHL in corporate support. I'm not just making this up, if you doubt me, keep in mind that I had the details of the Tkachuk trade up on my blog before they were released by most media outlets.

Your unproven assertion above. I would think that with our strong and rapidly growing economy and a far higher general public interst in hockey - coporate support would be close to what you get in Atlanta
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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It won't change the salary split with the Caps - the Rags will still only be on the hook for a portion of Jagr's salary - but the cap hit for that portion could change if the salary for the option year is greater than or less than the contract's post lockout Averaged Salary.
It's not - it's the same for all years. (Of course, if you had a copy of my salary spreadsheet handy you'd see that. ;))

If an option is not yet vested and is contingent on some future action by the player or team (games played, etc), then the option year is not included in the calculation of the Averaged Salary for the contract (the players annual cap hit). As soon as the option becomes vested, the option year is included in the Averaged Salary - if the option year salary is greater than the post-lockout average, his cap hit would go up, if it is less, it will go down.
The league treats option years that still exist as if the year is guaranteed and thus it's counted at face value in the calculations for the Averaged Salary. There is no discounting of the potential value of the option years, and the league doesn't bother with whether player options are vested.

Mats Sundin has a team option for 2007-08 and the value of that option is counted in full for calculating his Averaged Salary; the same goes for a guy like Michael Nylander who has a player option for 2007-08. It's like this for every player who still has existing option years - it doesn't matter who holds the right to exercise the option year, it's considered to be a valid, guaranteed year and is counted in the calculation of the player's Averaged Salary (which is why there was talk about whether Toronto would turn down Sundin's option earlier this year and experts said that the Leafs wouldn't b/c it would immediately cause his cap number to jump by nearly $1 million).

That's the way the league has calculated it for every player with an option year(s) still on the books. Trust me, I've checked on this.

Where they do have an impact is that they limit ticket revenues (vis a vis Supply & Demand and Market Elasticity), assuming tickets are properly priced to what the market will bare. Customers just care about the total price (and don'treally care that the 13.8% tax goes to someone other than the Blues) and will make purchasing decisions accordingly.
My point with that comment was that for a team like the Blues, to get $750,000 in net gate receipts per game they really need to sell $853,500 in tickets where a team like Nashville (assuming their ticket tax is 5%) only needs to sell $787,500. That doesn't seem like much, but for a crowd of 17,000 fans it means the Blues need to have an average ticket price of $50.21, compared to only $46.32 for Nashville.

Carry that out over a season, and it means the Blues need to charge a higher price to generate the same gate revenue as another city, all things being equal.
 
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kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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The league treats option years that still exist as if the year is guaranteed and thus it's counted at face value in the calculations for the Averaged Salary. There is no discounting of the potential value of the option years, and the league doesn't bother with whether player options are vested.

Mats Sundin has a team option for 2007-08 and the value of that option is counted in full for calculating his Averaged Salary; the same goes for a guy like Michael Nylander who has a player option for 2007-08. It's like this for every player who still has existing option years - it doesn't matter who holds the right to exercise the option year, it's considered to be a valid, guaranteed year and is counted in the calculation of the player's Averaged Salary (which is why there was talk about whether Toronto would turn down Sundin's option earlier this year and experts said that the Leafs wouldn't b/c it would immediately cause his cap number to jump by nearly $1 million).

That's the way the league has calculated it for every player with an option year(s) still on the books. Trust me, I've checked on this.

Actually, the league does treat (or is supposed to treat) Vested and Non Vested options differently:

CBA Exhibit 16 said:
f. For any SPC entered into prior to the execution of this Agreement, which SPC
contains a vested option year or years (i.e., an option which is exercisable at the
conclusion of a League Year, without the occurrence of any further conditions)
,
whether exercisable at the option of the Player or at the option of the Club, the
maximum Player Salary and Bonuses that could be earned pursuant to such vested
option year(s), as well as the maximum number of vested option year(s) provided
in the SPC, shall be included in the Club's Averaged Club Salary as though such
vested option year or years were a fixed year or years under the SPC.

h. For any SPC entered into prior to the execution of this Agreement, which SPC
contains a contingent option year or years (i.e., an option which is exercisable at
the conclusion of a League Year, but requires the occurrence of some further
condition(s) before being exercisable)
, such option year or years shall not be
included in the Club's Averaged Club Salary
unless and until such time the option
"vests," at which point the option year or years shall be treated as a fixed year or
years, pursuant to Paragraph 5(f) above.
You are correct that all vested options are "considered to be a valid, guaranteed year and is counted in the calculation of the player's Averaged Salary" and about Sundin's option, but Sundin's option was a vested option and not a contingent (non vested) one.

Vested vs non-Vested is a seperate issue from player option vs team option. A contingent (non vested option) would be an option that requires some set of conditions (ie minimum number games played) in order to vest. When those conditions are met, the option vests and is then treated like a Vested option (and immediately included in the Averaged Salary calculations).
 

Fugu

Guest
My point with that comment was that for a team like the Blues, to get $750,000 in net gate receipts per game they really need to sell $853,500 in tickets where a team like Nashville (assuming their ticket tax is 5%) only needs to sell $787,500. That doesn't seem like much, but for a crowd of 17,000 fans it means the Blues need to have an average ticket price of $50.21, compared to only $46.32 for Nashville.

Carry that out over a season, and it means the Blues need to charge a higher price to generate the same gate revenue as another city, all things being equal.


Exactly. Hockey fans are always trying to compare markets to each other, and as I mentioned when kdb referenced the Team Marketing reports, one has to be careful in how one interprets and uses the data. Affordability, and thus total cost to a fan, should not be confused with Hockey Related Revenues as reported by the NHL to the NHLPA. Not only are sales taxes removed from the equation, but so are direct costs. Unless you have a business/finance background, it can be very easy to mis-use or misinterpret these numbers. "Revenues" is often the top line with progressive deductions to take out costs, taxes, etc., leaving profit at the bottom. Hockey Related Revenues is a figure that is left after the prescribed Direct Costs, taxes, and allowances are made, if applicable. As IB correctly points out, reports that try to measure average affordability generate different figures from the accountants responsible for complying with the CBA and reporting of HRR. Different intent, different figures.... seemingly interchangable terms.

[IB, kdb- not aimed at you.]
 

Fugu

Guest
Ever heard of estimating? You don't need to be an accountant to see that these reported half-season gate revenues will not total up to the projected CBA total league revenues, ergo money is coming from other sources. Thus we are trying to evaluate team income with only part needed data.

Trust me, I estimate and make assumptions all the time! I just have to be careful what I report as fact or assumption/estimate. You're already leaving out pre-season games, and of course playoff gate receipts, so right off the bat we don't even have a complete picture of gate receipts alone.... No one ever contested that there were other sources of revenues.
 

Enstrom39

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Trust me, I estimate and make assumptions all the time! I just have to be careful what I report as fact or assumption/estimate. You're already leaving out pre-season games, and of course playoff gate receipts, so right off the bat we don't even have a complete picture of gate receipts alone.... No one ever contested that there were other sources of revenues.

Very fair points.

OK, so let me ask you this, what % of the CBA defined revenues would you estimate come from gate revenues? If we include preseason, regular season and playoff dates in that total number? I'm not looking for a perfect answer, just a ballpark figure.

Because we have heard for years that it is gate driven league, and now it seems to me we finally have some data that should allow us to make an assessment of veracity of that statement.
 

Enstrom39

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Your unproven assertion above. I would think that with our strong and rapidly growing economy and a far higher general public interst in hockey - coporate support would be close to what you get in Atlanta

Look I am perfectly willing to concede that the average Albertan is more willing to play money for NHL tickets, but I think that Atlanta is way ahead of Edmonton in terms of the corporate economy.

Just think about this, your local economy supports roughly 700,000 people who live in the EDM metro area. The Atlanta metro has approx 5,000,000 people who live and work here. Our metro area is 700% larger than Edmonton, are you really going to try and argue that EDM economy is bigger? Even with higher oil revenues at the moment, I find it very hard to believe that the economy is larger than ATL metro.

I'm not trying to be mean, but there is a reason why I think that in the long run Atlanta will be a solid hockey market. Atlanta is so big in terms of population and the economy that it only requires a fraction of the market to fall in love with hockey for hockey to flourish here. I think Dallas is a perfect example of this. Does everyone in Dallas love hockey? Heck no. Are the Stars a success, absolutely. That's because Dallas has a) filed a competitive team and b) is a massive metro area.

Huge metro areas like Dallas, Atlanta, Anaheim, Phoenix have certain advantages over smaller markets like Carolina, Nashville, and Buffalo. We don't need every person to love hockey for there to be sufficient support for a NHL franchise. People love and adore hockey in Edmonton and Calgary and Buffalo--and that is great, because you need a higher percentage of your residents to turn out and buy tickets.

Let's say the goal of a NHL franchise is sellout their building with season tickets. Let's say you have roughly 17,000 season tickets you need to sell. In Edmonton that means that you would need one out of every 41 people in the metro area to become season ticket holders to reach 17,000 STH. In Atlanta because of the huge population you only need one out of every 294 people to buy season tickets to reach that number. Roughly speaking EDM needs about 2.5% of their population to buy season tickets while ATL would only need .3% of the population to do so.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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Vested vs non-Vested is a seperate issue from player option vs team option. A contingent (non vested option) would be an option that requires some set of conditions (ie minimum number games played) in order to vest. When those conditions are met, the option vests and is then treated like a Vested option (and immediately included in the Averaged Salary calculations).
I think the only person you have to worry about something like this on is with Alexei Yashin, who clearly has backloaded money that causes his cap number to be about $500K higher than what his salaries by year indicate they should be; unfortunately, I have no idea (yet) what the details of that backloading are.

;) If that's not good enough, then I'm just going by what the league's files say.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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Very fair points.

OK, so let me ask you this, what % of the CBA defined revenues would you estimate come from gate revenues? If we include preseason, regular season and playoff dates in that total number? I'm not looking for a perfect answer, just a ballpark figure.

Because we have heard for years that it is gate driven league, and now it seems to me we finally have some data that should allow us to make an assessment of veracity of that statement.
Gate revenues are about half of total revenues. The bulk of the other half is about an even split between TV and other arena revenues (luxury boxes, advertising, concessions, etc).

If you extrapolate the numbers from the G&M sidebar to a full season, you get total regular season revenues of $935.4M in '05-'06 and $985.2M this season.

If you compare this to the $2.178B in HRR last season regular season gate contributed 42.9%.

This compares pretty closely to the '02-'03 numbers from the Levitt Report. Regular season gate revenue contributed about 44.3% of total league revenues. Total gate revenues (including pre-season and playoffs) contributed 52.4% of total league revenues.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/2002-03levitt.htm

PHP:
Levitt Report Numbers
 
2002-03 NHL Season

Revenues   	 Regular season   	 Playoffs   	 Total
Gate receipts 	$886 million 	$111 million 	$997 million
Preseason and special games 	$50 million 	$0 million 	$50 million
Broadcasting and new media 	$432 million 	$17 million 	$449 million
In-arena revenues 	$401 million 	$14 million 	$415 million
Other hockey revenues 	$82 million 	$3 million 	$85 million
Total revenues 	$1,851 million 	$145 million 	$1,996 million
 
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Enstrom39

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Thanks. I can't believe I forgot about the Leavitt Report numbers.

So very roughly speaking revenues are:
50% Gate receipts
25% Broadcasting
25% In-Arena Revenues

I'm guessing that In-Arena includes board ads, concessions, team gear, etc. Maybe parking is included too?

So broadly speaking the information in the G&M article provides us with a team-by-team picture of 1/2 of league revenues.

We could perhaps estimate local TV by ratings and market size if someone wanted to tackle that. So how closely does "In-Arena Revenues" correlate with "corporate support" or does "corporate support" fall under "Other hockey revenues"?
 

Resolute

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Mar 4, 2005
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AB
Look I am perfectly willing to concede that the average Albertan is more willing to play money for NHL tickets, but I think that Atlanta is way ahead of Edmonton in terms of the corporate economy.

Just think about this, your local economy supports roughly 700,000 people who live in the EDM metro area. The Atlanta metro has approx 5,000,000 people who live and work here. Our metro area is 700% larger than Edmonton, are you really going to try and argue that EDM economy is bigger? Even with higher oil revenues at the moment, I find it very hard to believe that the economy is larger than ATL metro.

I'm not trying to be mean, but there is a reason why I think that in the long run Atlanta will be a solid hockey market. Atlanta is so big in terms of population and the economy that it only requires a fraction of the market to fall in love with hockey for hockey to flourish here. I think Dallas is a perfect example of this. Does everyone in Dallas love hockey? Heck no. Are the Stars a success, absolutely. That's because Dallas has a) filed a competitive team and b) is a massive metro area.

Huge metro areas like Dallas, Atlanta, Anaheim, Phoenix have certain advantages over smaller markets like Carolina, Nashville, and Buffalo. We don't need every person to love hockey for there to be sufficient support for a NHL franchise. People love and adore hockey in Edmonton and Calgary and Buffalo--and that is great, because you need a higher percentage of your residents to turn out and buy tickets.

Let's say the goal of a NHL franchise is sellout their building with season tickets. Let's say you have roughly 17,000 season tickets you need to sell. In Edmonton that means that you would need one out of every 41 people in the metro area to become season ticket holders to reach 17,000 STH. In Atlanta because of the huge population you only need one out of every 294 people to buy season tickets to reach that number. Roughly speaking EDM needs about 2.5% of their population to buy season tickets while ATL would only need .3% of the population to do so.

I am going to jump in the middle of this, so forgive me if I am running off on a tangent.

First of all, I would suggest a little stronger fact checking before getting into the math. The city of Edmonton has a population of 700,000. The Edmonton Metro is just over 1 million. You already shorted it by 300,000 people, which obviously throws all of your population based estimates off.

That, however, does not change your overall point: that Atlanta has a much, much larger market to draw from. However, while there is a larger market, the real question is how likely that market is to support the team.

There are undoubtably more corporations in Atlanta than Edmonton, and probably, the Thrashers are better off than the Oilers in terms of real dollars generated from corporate support. I wonder if you have any information on that for these two teams, or any others? You said Atlanta is in the top third, was there a story or chart posted in another thread? I would be interested to read it.

However, in terms of the metro area, one also has to consider that the Atlanta market is divided, where Edmonton's is not. The Oilers are *the* team in Edmonton. The only competition of note for sporting dollars are an NLL team. Next year there will also be a WHL team that the Oilers themselves own.

The Thrashers have to compete with the NBA's Hawks, as well as an AFL and an ECHL team in the market. There is also, of course, college football and basketball to compete with. So while there are more people, and more dollars available, the Thrashers are in heavy competition for those dollars with other sports that have greater interest in the Atlanta market, where the Oilers have a near monopoly.
 

MoMiester

Registered User
Oct 26, 2006
90
0
Do you have any idea about the size of the oil boom in Alberta right now? I would guess a good portion of ticket sales in Luxury suits and the lower bowl in both Edmonon and Calgary are to Energy Companies. I know that I was in Petro-Canada corporate seats in the 7 row a few months back. I dont know much about Atlanta but I doubt the economic growth and the amount of money available to coporations there is on par with whats happening here in Alberta right now... pretty misinformed statement on your part IMO


Are you kidding? Atlanta is booming from all directions. HQs for Coke, Home Depot, Delta, UPS to say a few. It is just under the size of Toronto and WW economic center. So many WW, National and regional HQs you can not even mention them. Oil is good, but it is a one sided panel. Also HQs for Arby's, Chick-Fil-A, Earthlink, Equifax, Georgia-Pacific, Southern Company, SunTrust Banks. That is just some of the WW/national HQs.

Over 1.1M people moved there in the last 10 years.

My horse is Atlanta on this one.
 
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