An Anti-Attendance Thread: Info on Gate Receipts

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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IB, you know I would be pretty well the last person to defend Hawker's line of thinking, and the point you raise in the first and second paragraphs above are all very valid, but your point in the third paragraph is really not meaningful, IMO.

The raison d'etre of this board is not to influence things. If it was, HF would not exist at all. The purpose of this Board IMO is to discuss and share opinions. HAwker is sharing his (usually completely misguided) opinions about what owners should/might be considering moves, and which franchises bear watching after reading the latest data. To me there is nothing wrong with that per se. Now, with respect to his rationales, they are fair game to be dismantled and slaughtered, as is almost always the case for his opinions. However, to say that they are unworthy simply because he cannot influence them is not fair, IMO.
My point is that people will see a set of numbers and start the, "see - that's proof that _____ market can't support / doesn't deserve a team" argument, and/or start the, "______ market can't survive with numbers like that" argument .... when in fact, if that were truly the case one would have to imagine that owners in that particular market would already know and be making plans to pick up and go elsewhere. They also either refuse to take into consideration the issues surrounding the problems with the franchise, or (depending on how it fits their agenda) selectively choose what to include and what to exclude.
 

Fugu

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I'd have to go with Nashville here. Let's look at it this way and be as dispassionate as possible. As an owner my only obligation is to maximize profit for myself and any other investors or individuals I owe money to. Let's split the difference between the Pens almost sale and the Blues sale and say that I bought the team for about $162.5 Million.

I like your analysis, but I have to disagree with both the ultimate goal being to maximize profit, and whether or not you maximize profit, revenue or take losses right at the beginning. More on the second part later.

I think the ultimate goal is to increase franchise value. The points you've raised factor into this in different ways, but really any owner - leaving out personal reasons - should really only be worried about franchise value.

Now how do I go about maximizing profit? Maximizing gains while minimizing losses, naturally. Each and every fan should be seen as a revenue source. I don't care about them as people, I don't care that they feel their market "deserves" their team - all I care about is getting them into the arena and getting their money.So I want as many revenue sources as possible coming in, thus I want a growing market.

I think you are mixing up your short- and longterm goals and strategies. At the very beginning and part of the decision on whether or not to buy any team is market growth rate (population in this case) and current target market size. Both are factors. Using Chicago and Nashville as examples, it probably will be many, many years - perhaps decades - before Nashville can be on equal footing with Chicago as far as market size. That's probably why Chicago already has several major league sports teams based there, and its highly doubtful any of them are leaving... in spite of Chicago's less than stellar growth rate vis-a-vis the Southern cities.

On the point of maximizing profit, Irish Blues and I have kicked this can around before, however if you are trying to "grow" a market, maximizing profit should be deferred for a future date. You are saying the right thing, but what you failed to realize is that the pursuit of market share often means a strategy that does not allow for simultaneous profit maximization. In a sense, you are investing in your future by delaying the collection of profits now. Financially you do not want to incur too many losses and obviously you have to be able to service your debt and other expenses, but you should be figuring out how much more you gain in 5-10+ years vs. your profit this year if you choose a strategy that makes market share the top goal.

Toronto is in a position to maximize profits. A newly established team won't be there for some time.


I want the ability to say that each year there are more and more potential revenue sources. Nashville's got that - growing at roughly 16.7% in the last census and still growing about, 4% over the national average. Chicago, meanwhile, is growing, but at a bit over half the rate (9%) and is under the national average. Boston, too, is growing, but at an even slower rate (2.6%). [ snip ]

It just means I can sell them one of mine after they (or their children) buy into Predators hockey. It also must be said that it's likely that Chicago or Boston aren't going to see increased fan growth - it's likely that everybody who ever is or will be a Bruins or Blackhawks fan is around. The fanbase has matured, so to speak. While I'll still make jersey sales and souvenier sales, I'd wager that these sales are roughly a slow constant. In Nashville though, every newcomer in that 16.7% and every local who has never been to a hockey game in their life is a potential jersey/team puck/assorted other memorabilia sale. The fanbase is "younger," so to speak, and I can come in during the sales spike and ride it for a bit before it cools as Chicago and Boston's have with the combination of the right marketing and putting a winning team on the ice.

You've listed some very good reasons as to why a place like Nashville deserves consideration as a place that can support a major league sport. The harder question, which has no easy answer, is what is it that makes people like "hockey" (the professional sport)?

At least in the case of Chicago with it's unique [Wirtzian] history, Chicago may be like a new, and hugely untapped market. It once was a huge hockey city, and hockey was a Top 3 sport there. The NBA wasn't even on the radar then, and tickets were impossible to find. All the games were broadcast on WGN-TV, reaching thousands of fans across the US and Canada. I have to digress. I was at a Wings game last week, and sitting next to me was a guy who - as it turned - grew up in a neighboring city in Northwest Indiana. I think I'm about 7 years older than him. So, I said, you must've grown up as a Hawks fan [I did]. No, the response went, I was mostly able to tune in Leafs games on TV so I was a Leaf fan until I moved to Michigan in the early 1990's. He said you could only watch Hawks games on pay-per-view in those days. He didn't remember the WGN days-- which really were the only exposure I had to the Hawks as a kid. I was shocked by this... in Blackhawk country? The power of television really should not be underestimated.

Speaking of a consistently winning team, it's another reason why I'd go for the Predators. It's a young team, but they know success within the last couple years. Further, I think it bears to be said that Nashville can be a potentially lucrative draw to sign players. "Where would you rather play, sir...for a Canadian team or an original 6 team where just a slump will cause you to be castigated in the local media or down here where, the chances of that are a bit less? Where would you rather play, a team in the Northeast Division where it's up in the air as to what happens or down here where, as of late, we've been one of the strongest teams in the division? Sure that could change, but that's why we're trying to sign you and not someone else"

This might be a reason to buy Nashville right now, but to dump the Panthers or Coyotes. Teams have to be able to survive the lean times.

Lastly, it can't be understated that from a business perspective the South is pretty lucrative. Low tax rates for me, a corporate entity? Low cost of living means I can pay my employees less than what I'd have to in Boston or Chicago and they'll STILL be happy? A city with only one other major sports franchise to challenge me for fan dollars? Sign me up!

However, each teams situation is different. Nashville has a good deal as far as city and arena support, but they lack support from the corporate sector. Tampa has now won the Cup, is selling out, but doesn't have a very friendly tax environment with regard to some of its arena issues and associated revenues. In spite of selling out all its games, I don't think they're making very much money even with a cap in the $39-44 MM range. As far as what you have to pay employees in Chicago (I don't know about Boston)... you've never been to the United Center, have you? I think there's a lot of low cost labor in the immediate area.

Perhaps the most compelling argument for Chicago is BobbyOrr's post earlier, pointing out what Toronto, NY and Detroit revenues are compared to Chicago. I do believe with the right ownership group and most importantly a return to general broadcasting of all Hawks games would find a receptive market. There's no reason to think they could not eclipse Detroit's levels. There are more than enough companies (greater than the Detroit area) to draw upon, and a huge population base. Hockey as a sport is established in Chicago. It's played in high schools, colleges and rinks all around the area. The area produces NHL-caliber players. People already "know" what the sport is... they've mostly given up on Wirtz, not the NHL.
 

Fugu

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That being said, it is a bit of an artificial choice, Chicago would notionally command a premium as an O6 team in a gigantic TV market. That being said, though, has there ever been a demonstration that hockey support in Chicago was ever more than skin deep? Has it ever made its way to the top of the sporting food chain in that city (I am asking; I dunno), or even in the top 3? Every franchise in every sport in that city is storied, so there is huge competition for the sports page, all year round. Even if Wirtz put the game on TV, there is a lot of sports competition for the airwaves. Could there even be airtime for 82 hockey games on top of 324 ballgames, 82 basketball games and 16 NFL games? That factor may very well be overstated, although that is just speculation.

Ultimately any investment is a risk. What I think Chicago has going for it in this scenario is the O6 status, the gigantic TV market (read as gigantic base population), and yes, a history where hockey was once accepted and very popular, Top 3 for sure, maybe even Top 2 at its peak.

The second point you raise: has it been shown that hockey has an acceptance greater than the skin deep level? In my opinion, yes, however even assuming I am wrong... all this means is that it's on an even keel with ANY expansion team. There has been no demonstration of any type of support for hockey when you start from scratch. So the real question is do you want to invest in the bigger market overall where there is some tradition, or do you want to invest in a completely unproven market that's also smaller in size (what you and I would call "lower market potential").
 

EbencoyE

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Nov 26, 2006
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Personally I think comp'd tickets are a good thing.

High number of comp'd tickets = many sponsors = good corporate income = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Hall of fame players that have played on the team, stanley cups, playoff appearances, rivalries, I don't know what else to say I am sure there is more to be mentioned. Also I never mentioned Carolina so no need to bit my head off.

So Vancouver is not a traditional market?

Neely is currently the only Hall of Famer to have played for the team, and he is absolutly not there because of his play here.

No Stanley Cups.

20 playoff appearances, most in an era when only 4 teams missed. 10 playoff rounds won over 6 playoff appearances.

Mild rivalries come and go, but no long term or natural rival.
 

Hawker14

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Oct 27, 2004
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The most interresting thing from that chart is the number of comp tickets in Canadian markets (Something the xenophobic Canadians say never happens). Ottawa and Montreal were close to 1000 per game last season. Comp tickets are defined differently from team to team. One things for sure Winnipeg would NOT HAVE 15005 fans paying full price if the NHL went back there as claimed by the jetties. BTW Comp ticket are not some guy on the corner passing out freebies to every passerby which is also claimed by some.


I also was surprised by the amount of comp tickets that Ottawa and Montreal both give each game. However, they're still selling 18k and 20k tickets per game and generating significant gate revenues, which is the the most important aspect, imo.


You are right, Winnipeg would not have 15,005 fans paying full price. WE know for a fact the CBA requires 46 free tickets for the players each game. Winnipeg would need to be in the range of Edmonton, Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver - at most the 2% of capacity level. Winnipeg with a small arena needs to fill the building with paying fans. Thus, 14,700 paying fans would need to generate U$ 800,000 per game in gate revenues - an average of about C$ 63 a ticket, which is about the average ticket price in the league.

If Winnipeg had to comp 1,000 tickets per game, it's not feasible. If Winnipeg had a 17,000 seat arena it might be necessary, but Winnipeg already has a market for the NHL. The whole issue is supply and demand, and the MTS Centre's 15,000 seat capacity being able to generate sufficient income. Like Cal Nichols' has been quoted in regards to the issue, it's better to have 1,000 seats to few than 2,000 too many.

Don't take it personally, I wish all 30 NHL markets were healthy so that expansion was an option. Trust me, no fans should ever have to lose their team. It's heartbreaking.

But the numbers reported offer a glimpse as to weaknesses in the NHL.
 

Hawker14

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One only has to look at jetsowner to see how the zeal affects their minds, as the operator of that site has taken a "one week strike" that is now in week 4 from posting selective attendance figures becuase all of the southern teams he is targetting are "clearly lying" about their current attendance figures, and he is tired of "picking on the same teams every night" - ie: teams like St. Louis, Chicago and Boston, who have history on their sides.

He has been on vacation in Florida for spring training so that probably has more to do with it. Perhaps you should send him an email to update his site more often !

Yet, the chart reveals that freebies do cloud the NHL's announced attendance figures. And there are enough poor "announced" attendance figures since March 8th to put on the site, if it would be necessary to appease you !

:naughty:
 

Hawker14

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Forgive me if this has been stated previously in this thread, but am I the only one bothered by the fact that Gary Bettman and the NHL have been trumpeting post-lockout attendance records when clearly those numbers have been juiced by thousands -- THOUSANDS -- of ticket comps?

You're not the only one !

IMO, the vultures' best shot will be after the owner passes on, we have no idea if any of his heirs are interested in a hockey team in Florida. He supposedly bought the team for the land around the arena which he was going to develop with some friends, but they died before the development got off the ground and Mr. Davidson lost enthusiasm for the project. He's certainly stuck it out, and I'll grudgingly admit he's the best owner this team has had, even though we're the red headed step-child compared to his Pistons. With the way some of the owners are around the League though, maybe it's better to have someone that's hands-off.

Hey, old friend ! Tampa seemes to be a legitimate hockey market with healthy gate revenues. Why label future owners as vultures ? I know you believe in the market (which is healthy by the chart numbers). Do you think there won't be interest from a new owner to keep the team in Tampa ?

Hypothetical question. Three NHL teams are put on the market tomorrow. The price is somewhere between the last real sale (St. Louis) at $150 MM and the almost sale of Pittsburgh at $175 MM.

Your three options are Chicago, Boston, or Nashville.

Your money. Which team would you buy? And no, you can't move them.

[I'll take Chicago.]

Since the initial cost is the same I'm buying the Bruins. The team is the only healthy franchise of the three, and with a winner is a licence to print money.

Chicago would of course be the second choice. I wouldn't invest in a team in Nashville at that price point since i don't think there's an investment bank that would see it as a profitable enterprise.


Unfortunately ignorant elitist northerners who refused to spread their beloved game until the 90's have held it back in many markets and it's been the job of snowbirds and average Joes to spread the game. And since they've had little help, it's not surprising to see markets who have only had teams for 10 years struggling to be as successful as those who've been around for 50.

Huh ? The NHL has always been controlled by Americans. Did you mean ignorant northern American elitists ? Canadians love hockey as their game but have never controlled the NHL. Maybe I presumed too much from your post.
 
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Sotnos

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Hey, old friend !
Well, hi there to you too! :D

Tampa seemes to be a legitimate hockey market with healthy gate revenues. Why label future owners as vultures ? I know you believe in the market (which is healthy by the chart numbers). Do you think there won't be interest from a new owner to keep the team in Tampa ?
I wasn't referring to future owners as vultures, I was referring to people like MrBlue&White who'd LOVE to see my team moved to the great white north as well as whoever put that apparently false story in to the Canadian Press.

Seriously, if PS&E is losing as much money as they say they are, I'm GLAD they got financial advisors to look at their business practices, because they're doing something really wrong. My only real concern about any future owner is that we'd get another dud like we've had before. A few idiots that don't know what they're doing could undo all the good work that's been done here over the past few years, we've seen it before. I don't worry about the team leaving, this team is still Espo's baby and it would happen over his dead body, and I'm only somewhat kidding with that.
 

MoMiester

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Oct 26, 2006
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When there are more deserving markets (Canada) then some in the USA I think most people hope to see those markets fail. (me included)

The fact is that the US took 2 Canadian teams away. One of which, you have a very good case in saying the best rivalry in NHL history. (Montreal-Quebec) Now expansion/relocation comes along and these cities are not even considered, OK whatever in the expansion era they cannot survive because of the rise in salaries. But with the new CBA there is a new hope, and that hope is that a team in the US bombs and has no choice but to move, and we all (Canadians) pray that they come back to Canada.



True. but if the cities had build an arena, nothing would be said. These expansion cities did not steal these teams. These cities let their arenas get old and the local owners sold out. Blame the local owners, not the new markets.
 

MoMiester

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One only has to look at jetsowner to see how the zeal affects their minds, as the operator of that site has taken a "one week strike" that is now in week 4 from posting selective attendance figures becuase all of the southern teams he is targetting are "clearly lying" about their current attendance figures, and he is tired of "picking on the same teams every night" - ie: teams like St. Louis, Chicago and Boston, who have history on their sides.


The same guy goes after Carolina for years for not selling out and when they do, he finds a way to bash them then. I have been to Raleigh, it is made up of more than people who attended UNC. It has so many people from all over who many probably care more about hockey than basketball.

This is the same guy when talking about Atlanta mentions "moonshine or whatever they do down there" Now I have been to Atlanta and Winnipeg and when it comes to business, international trade, whatever...even fun.....I will take Atlanta. I have said it before and I will say it again, the owner of that site is using the pawns to get them all excited and make himself famous so he can walk around town and be a local rock star :yo: (what he always wanted to be since he played in a band for a while) and sell more wine, beer or Coke or whatever he sells.

He can not go backwards. He is in too deep.
 

MoMiester

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I know that those people are not supporting there teams well enough. Also I know that teams in Winnipeg and Quebec would support them win or lose. If you are thinking of bringing up attendance numbers for the Jets do not bother I know they are not good. The reason, the team was not good, the arena was not very good (to much obstruction). I know this, that if Winnipeg ever got a team again this would be the hottest ticket in town and would be sold out every night I assure you of that. (I think most people would agree) They have not seen NHL hockey in 10+ years I think they are starving for it.

I think people realize that in Canada hockey is religion and major cities here have only 1 real Pro team. (Toronto exception) also I am not counting any CFL teams. In the US that is not the case obviously, and when Canadians see that American cities treat these teams as second class teams and know that they would be treated as kings in Canada they get really pissed off. I for one get pissed off when I have to pay a large amount of money to watch my team play, and then watch them have to pay a team in the States just to survive. Now if the Leafs gave say Edmonton, Calgary, or Ottawa 10 million in revenue sharing that is fine with me but not Nashville. I am not a fan of the NHL I am a fan of hockey and the Toronto Maple Leafs, the NHL has treated its die hard fans, and its Canadian fans like crap so why should I be a fan? I hate teams in the NHL and I wish teams to fail miserably so the NHL can realize its mistakes. On the other hand I was overjoyed when Buffalo came out of bankrupcy, and when Pittsburgh got its new arena deal, I do not hate all American teams but I do hate most and hope they fail miserably like I said.

Look I hope you do not take this as a shot at Nashville, because I think you guys are great fans as you are on these forums and I have no doubt that you support the team. The fact is there is not enough of you guys and that's what makes me angry.

One question: Do you actually pay for NHL hockey? I mean pay cold hard cash to go to games? So many people who go after fans in markets never pay for games. I am not talking about I one game. Don't say you can not afford Canadian hockey. Just a question.
 

MoMiester

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Oct 26, 2006
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The devil is in the details. That's the problem with the general studies because what they choose to include/exclude really distorts what the team is generating as revenue. Here's the qualifier at the bottom of the TM report on how they arrive at an average price:




I think the NHL data incorporates the luxury suite sales? The way I'm interpreting this is that the motives are quite different. If I'm not mistaken, Team Marketing is trying to come up with a general "cost of going to a game for an average Joe" [affordability] report. Furthermore, by using the same assumptions for all teams and sports, cities and sports can be compared to each other.

On the other hand the NHL is counting up all the money teams' actually receive from the category of "gate receipts."

The problem is that most fans have used the TM data because they never had access to the league numbers. Obviously the TM data was not meant to be used as a way to calculate complete NHL revenues for this category.


I dont see how it include suite sells. I saw on another site that Atlanta GM/owner said that the 4155 seats includes the suite tickets since that is the only place to put them.

I have sat in the suite in a California city and the ticket had a price of $115. I figured at 16 people, it came out per season to around $87K. I know a box cost more than that so my guess it ticket rev on that suite is $87K, but that box rental which would not be in these numbers would be another $87K which would be close to the $150K to $200K per year per suite.

I see no box rental revenue in these numbers.
 

MoMiester

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Oct 26, 2006
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Mr. BLUE and WHITE wrote this:

"My point of view is simple this, I dislike teams in certain cities that should not be there. I believe there should be less teams in the NHL and not so much of them in the south. Couple reasons, no tradition, not enough fans sad to say but it is the truth."

Doesn't this argument apply to much of the 1967 expansion???

Anyhow...

Red flags should be raised about Thrashers attendance and comp tickets. But building the team is going to be a slow hard sell since the management did NOT do well in building the team in the first four years. However, the market is too big to give up on, and there are just too many Northern US, Canadian, and European transplants moving here to give up on hockey. My pickup team at lunch last week had two Bostonians, a New Yorker, two Finns, Three Czechs, Two Canadians, and even some people from the South! You'll find the same diverse demographic at Thrashers' games, but a majority of local born (or at least) bred. ;)

I have noticed a huge change in the energy level at Philips Arena this year. Even when we were stinking out the joint in January, the fans were into it in a way I haven't heard before.

And honestly, Thrashers tickets are cheap. We have an entire $10 section up top (which is usually filled).


With home town sponsors like UPS, Home Depot, Delta and others, why would anyone leave. All it will take is a playoff run for the Thrashers and Nashville and the season tickets will flow.
 

Mr BLUEandWHITE

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Nov 14, 2005
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One question: Do you actually pay for NHL hockey? I mean pay cold hard cash to go to games? So many people who go after fans in markets never pay for games. I am not talking about I one game. Don't say you can not afford Canadian hockey. Just a question.

I went to a game in December in Montreal, then I got tickets here in Toronto for my birthday a week ago to see Carolina. I bought a hat and a Jersey, also before I left for Montreal I purchased a sweater with the Leafs logo on it.
 

GSC2k2*

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Since the initial cost is the same I'm buying the Bruins. The team is the only healthy franchise of the three, and with a winner is a licence to print money.

See my earlier post on that subject. Your statement could not be further from the truth.

Huh ? The NHL has always been controlled by Americans. Did you mean ignorant northern American elitists ? Canadians love hockey as their game but have never controlled the NHL. Maybe I presumed too much from your post.


Clarence Campbell, who ruled the NHL for 31 years and led the NHL into the expansion years, was from Saskatchewan.
 

Foy

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Jun 6, 2006
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Washington at $ 456k, double digit increase in gate revenues explained by price increase of almost same level. The Capitals paying fan base is not growing, which is a serious concern for a team generating such low gate. Another team in serious trouble although Leonsis can afford vast losses, which he's shown the apetite for. The Capitals, in their defence, are only spending to the bottom of the salary cap range unlike most others in dire straits thus they appear to be fiscally responsible during their rebuilding process.

Actually, losses are way down in Washington. While the team was losing around $20m or so per year in the years leading up to the lockout, the team slashed salary AND ticket prices, and is currently losing about $5m per year, money that Leonsis' company makes up through their minority ownership of the Verizon Center, which was included in their purchase of the Capitals.
 

Fugu

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Actually, losses are way down in Washington. While the team was losing around $20m or so per year in the years leading up to the lockout, the team slashed salary AND ticket prices, and is currently losing about $5m per year, money that Leonsis' company makes up through their minority ownership of the Verizon Center, which was included in their purchase of the Capitals.


What has changed? I think their last salary total pre-lockout, was in the low $20's MM. They currently sit at about $30 MM; I'd guess they received a revenue sharing check somewhere in the range of the Predators' share (~$10 MM?)... I know they dumped their high priced players leading up to all of this (Jagr... but they still pay $4MM of that salary...).
 

Mr BLUEandWHITE

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Clarence Campbell, who ruled the NHL for 31 years and led the NHL into the expansion years, was from Saskatchewan.

Campbell was the president I would not say he was ruling the NHL, James Norris an American owned Chicago, Detroit, Madison Square Garden (pretty sure he owned it anyway) He also helped the Bruins out of trouble with a large loan. Norris was top dog of the NHL.
 

Rob

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What has changed? I think their last salary total pre-lockout, was in the low $20's MM. They currently sit at about $30 MM; I'd guess they received a revenue sharing check somewhere in the range of the Predators' share (~$10 MM?)... I know they dumped their high priced players leading up to all of this (Jagr... but they still pay $4MM of that salary...).


So there is little chance that Ovechkin will be in Washington once he becomes a UFA?
 

GSC2k2*

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Campbell was the president I would not say he was ruling the NHL, James Norris an American owned Chicago, Detroit, Madison Square Garden (pretty sure he owned it anyway) He also helped the Bruins out of trouble with a large loan. Norris was top dog of the NHL.
That depends on which Jim Norris you are talking about. If you mean the patriarch (and real power of the Norris family before he died) - James Sr - that James Norris was born in St Catharines.
 

Fugu

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So there is little chance that Ovechkin will be in Washington once he becomes a UFA?

Well they'll free up that $4MM they paid NYR to take Jagr off their hands. I think there's one year left-- and 08/09 is an option year... Jagr's I think, but I am not certain. AO's current deal is up for renewal after 07/08. Hmmm.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
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The power on that option is Jagr's, he can trigger it by hitting one of a handful of conditions. I should probably go find and list them b/c the question about his option will come up about 163,000 times in the upcoming year.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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The power on that option is Jagr's, he can trigger it by hitting one of a handful of conditions. I should probably go find and list them b/c the question about his option will come up about 163,000 times in the upcoming year.
And the minute he hits those conditions, the option year goes from a contingent, non vested option (not included in his Averaged Salary calculation) to a vested option (included) and his cap hit changes.

More work for you, IB, O Joy, O Joy, ...
 

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