All-Time Draft #7, Part IV

[Evil Sather]

One for Plante.

 

[shawnmullin]

The Las Vegas Thunder are proud to select a puck moving defenceman with 2 Stanley Cup rings, an Olympic Gold Medal, a World Championship Gold Medal and the 1994-95 Swedish Player of the Year...

D Tomas Jonsson

http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1979/79025.html

PRE-DRAFT AWARDS AND HONORS

Swedish Championship: 1979 (Ornskoldsvik)World Championships: 1979 (bronze medal)
World Junior Championships: 1978 (silver), 1979 (bronze)
European Junior Championships: 1977 (gold medal)
World Championships All-Star First Team: 1979
Swedish Junior Player of Year: 1977-78 (Ornskoldsvik)

POST-DRAFT

Olympics: 1980 (bronze medal), 1994 (gold medal)
Canada Cup: 1981 (fifth place), 1987 (third place)
World Championships: 1981 (silver medal), 1986 (silver medal), 1990 (silver medal), 1991 (gold medal), 1995 (silver medal)
World Jr. Championships: 1980 (bronze), 2000 (fifth) (asst. coach)
IIHF Hall of Fame: Inducted 2000
Sweden Golden Puck Award (Player of Year): 1994-95 (Leksand)
World Championships All-Star First Team: 1980, 1990, 1995
World Junior Championships All-Star First Team: 1980
Coaching Career: Named Leksand (Sweden) assistant coach prior to 1998-99 season and remained in position through 2000-01 season.

Also led the Islanders in +/- in 1982-83.

Scored 334 points in 552 games in the NHL.

One of few members of the Triple Gold Club, players who have won a Stanley Cup, a World Championship and an Olympic Gold medal.

Been to 3 Stanley Cup finals with 2 wins.

Puck mover but also solid and smart in his own zone and not entirely soft given his nearly 500 career PIMs.

Starting in his second season he basically delivered between 44-50 points a season from the blue line and was a lock for second leading scoring defenceman on a team where top spot was clearly going to belong to Dennis Potvin.

Pretty much perfect for 6th D and 2nd PP unit.

 

[pitseleh]

That's interesting because I think he tends to be a bit underrated at times...I think people tend to forget about him carrying that expansion Blues team basically. Also just from an "eyeball" test perspective the film/games I've seen of him he looks to be the most talented goaltender in terms of athletic ability during his prime years (when compared to others of his era).

I agree, I've always thought that Hall should have been held in a higher regard but often isn't because of the failures of those Blackhawks teams. I really liked Hockey Outsider's analysis, which basically showed the team around him (for the most part) are what fell apart during their playoff runs.

They often forget that he does have a Conn Smythe for carrying that Blues team as well as a Cup.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Playoffs are gonna be great aren't they?

They are going to be entertaining I will give you that, as long as it doesn't take as long as it did last time, over 2-3 weeks is to long in my opinion... slows everything down and goes from being fun to being a bore.

Anyways seeing as though the teams are pretty well formed I will start on some of my reviews

Best Offense (no specific order)
VanIslander - Some very tallented players on the front end and I can see the lines clicking very well (don't know much about Vikulov on the first line because he is one of those that you selected that there is such limited reading about that I can't get a handle as to how good they really were. That being said the one fault I see on your team is the lack of a physical presence, especially on your top two lines, there really isn't a power forward and your most physical forward is likely a tossup between Francis and Larionov, two players noted for their less than physical play. I have the same concerns about my own team (what a shift from the last draft) so it isn't me picking on you.
Nalyd - Best 1-2-3 combo that I have ever seen in the draft from an offensive perspective. The lack of depth is a huge concern though as Mats Naslund for instance on the first line? He wasn't that much of a first line player when he was in the league and in an all time draft giving him first line type minutes could be asking for trouble. I see great top end talent but a lack of depth which could prove fatal come playoff time. Also what the hell are co-captains... I have seen a rotating captancy... but I have never heard of two captains at the same time.
Evil Sather - I don't like this team but he has assembled a solid collection of forwards who should be able to win games based on talent alone. Obviously the playoffs will be an issue and don't even mention the booze, fast cars, cheeseburgers and the mob.

HM - JFF

 

[MXD]

Can I send a shortlist? I'm going to bed right now.

 

[pitseleh]

I should be able to check in through the day, MXD.

 

[EagleBelfour]

UPDATED

7- Jacques Plante (EagleBelfour, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, pitseleh, kruezer, Evil Sather, Frightened Inmate #2)
6- Terry Sawchuk (Murphy2, Brett_Lebda, Wisent, pwnasaurus, raleh, vancityluongo)
3- Dominik Hasek (HankyFourFinger, pnep, Nalyd Psycho)
2- Patrick Roy (Spitfire11, shawnmullin)

 

[shawnmullin]

I'll add my vote in for Roy. We've seen goalies take teams on runs before, but he did it several times on teams that with even just a great goaltender as opposed to "the" goaltender likely would not have got the job done.

It's hard to compare Plante and Roy though, because Plante always had terrific teams arond him in his prime. I don't think he should be punished for that necessarily.

As for Hasek, dominating in the dead puck era kind of hurts him in my eyes a bit.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

As for Hasek, dominating in the dead puck era kind of hurts him in my eyes a bit.

How can you say that Hasek dominating in a low scoring era when the goals per game were roughly the same as they were back when Plante played, not to mention the difference in quality of teams between Buffalo of the 90s and Montreal of the 50s.

I would rate them as follows

Plante
Hasek
Sawchuk
Roy

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Once again you choose to talk about my team first, only, it isn't my team, technically it's shawnmullin's, both of ours to be exact: we make decisions together. But take another knock at me personally in a 30-team draft you *beep* *beep*.

As for Vikulov, you can't get a handle on how good?

There is a lot less evidence of how good many other players were. Geez. Let it be.

GWGs in two of the Summit Series games, 4 goals and 7 points in four Canada Cup '76 games. That's direct evidence of his role and success against the best in the NHL (I even quoted the play-by-play of Kharlamov's intercepted pass and Vikulov's goal on the play). He also was a career-long scorer with 283 goals in 520 Soviet league games, 109 goals in 190 international games, and of the seven world championship gold-medal teams he was on he twice was chosen as one of the top forwards. And I won't repeat here what I posted when the pick was made, several descriptions from different sources.

I labeled your team as one of the top three in the bloody draft and you think I am taking a swipe at you? You and LeafLander both suffer from one of the biggest victim comlexes I have ever seen on these boards. What would you have prefered, that I said your team was head and shoulders above every single team in the draft... it has nothing to do with you I figured I didn't need to add both of your names because they were automatically associated with each other.

And I don't care about statistics, as if hockey history has proven one thing, if an individual relies purely on statistics to make judgements, then they are making a very weak arguement. He scored points in the 1976 Canada Cup, what style of game did he play, how was he in the defensive zone, injury concerns, attitude concerns, was he physical at all considering his slight frame? These are all questions that can't be answered by statistics that you (a plural you - VanIslander and shawnmullen) dig up. Those are the questions that I have... and are you really trying to deny that your top two lines are soft.

Also relying on statistics from international tournaments is a bit of a misdenomer I have found, look at Naslund/Forsberg, they both were able to throw up a huge number of points in one of the tournaments (think it was the juniors) but the majority of those points came from beating up a team from Japan or some other country which wouldn't be able to produce 5 NHL players. Sure the stats look nice but without the story behind them they are meaningless,

 

[reckoning]

For my 7th defenceman, Buffalo selects Larry Hillman

 

[pitseleh]

MXD selects F/D Jim Roberts.

 

[reckoning]

Las Vegas offered me their #618 pick for my #624. I'll accept it, but I feel a little guilty about getting something for nothing.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain*]

Las Vegas offered me their #618 pick for my #624. I'll accept it, but I feel a little guilty about getting something for nothing.

That doesn't make any sense at all......

 

[VanIslander]

You and LeafLander both suffer from one of the biggest victim comlexes I have ever seen on these boards.

28 g.m.s and you consistently single me out to criticize... say something good, then criticize, criticize....

anyways, I deleted the post you quote, and I deleted it TEN MINUTES before you post yours, in fact, TWO minutes after i posted it i deleted it... so why are you quoting it? delete it and we can move on.

What would you have prefered, that I said your team was...

how about concentrating your attention on the 27 other teams in the draft? 1/28th of your attention is much more appreciated than 1/6th of your time. thanks.

And I don't care about statistics, as if hockey history has proven one thing, if an individual relies purely on statistics to make judgements, then they are making a very weak arguement. He scored points in the 1976 Canada Cup, what style of game did he play, how was he in the defensive zone, injury concerns, attitude concerns, was he physical at all considering his slight frame? These are all questions that can't be answered by statistics that you (a plural you - VanIslander and shawnmullen) dig up. Those are the questions that I have...

so you don't like stats (and I did provide a story behind them!).... you said before you don't like quotes from teammates or coaches or hockey writers.... what style of game did Vikulov play? DID you at all read the original post when he was drafted? There's PLENTY of description of his style.

Anyways, move on... there are plenty of teams in your own conference to talk about.

 

[VanIslander]

Las Vegas offered me their #618 pick for my #624. I'll accept it, but I feel a little guilty about getting something for nothing.

The Thunder, by this trade, get THREE picks at the same time!

That is a huge benefit of allowing the team to pick the entire fourth line at the same time, removing the threat that another g.m. could take the player wanted for that line.

a win-win trade

618 shawnmullin - Las Vegas Thunder
619 HankyFourFingers - Portland Buckaroos
620 Wisent - Adler Mannheim
621 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
622 pnep - Siberian Bears
623 shawnmullin - Las Vegas Thunder
624 reckoning - Buffalo Sabres
625 shawnmullin - Las Vegas Thunder

 

[Zetterberg4Captain*]

BTW, sorry for not having my roster updated but it is up now and I will add info for the players later on (no homework tonight)!

 

[God Bless Canada]

That doesn't make any sense at all......

Actually, when you look at the draft order, it makes perfect sense. It gives mullin/VanI back-to-back-to-back picks. A trade-down of six spots at this point in the draft means nothing. Teams are now looking to pick based on need, not on BPA.

Odds are good that the player mullin/VanI want the most for their first of six 23rd round picks will not be picked between picks 618 and 624. Trust me - these are the sort of things you realize after entering the minor league draft. It's not a move I would make, but mullin/VanI have made a lot of moves I wouldn't make. And I'm sure I've made moves they wouldn't make. reck was in the right place from their perspective, and he benefits. (And if there's a guy who deserves to move up six spots without a serious price, it's probably reck).

After I picked Engblom, the player I wanted the most was Curt Fraser. (Partially for sentimental reasons, but I outlined earlier why he was a good pick). I got him. And that's waiting for 39 picks. After I nabbed Fraser, the guy I wanted the most was Gary Bergman. I got him after waiting another 17 picks.

 

[Murphy]

<--------------

I'd like to call a press conference to announce a new username.

Hope I don't mess anyone up.

 

[pitseleh]

I was trying to figure out who this sketchy Murphy character was that was checking out the ATD thread.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I was trying to figure out who this sketchy Murphy character was that was checking out the ATD thread.

Now you know. And I'll agree: he is, and was, a sketchy character.

Just as long as Murph didn't show up for the press conference following one of his trademarked "beer storms."

New name. Same ineffective GM.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

so you don't like stats (and I did provide a story behind them!).... you said before you don't like quotes from teammates or coaches or hockey writers.... what style of game did Vikulov play? DID you at all read the original post when he was drafted? There's PLENTY of description of his style.

Anyways, move on... there are plenty of teams in your own conference to talk about.

I haven't seen him play (I guess I have seen the 72 Summit Series but he didn't stand out). So you drafted a small player with good playmaking skills who scored a goal that Kharlamov set up? Sound about right

 

[VanIslander]

So you drafted a small player with good playmaking skills who scored a goal that Kharlamov set up? Sound about right

sarcastic and belittling.... thanks for nothing

The Thunder select as the right wing finisher to play on the Kharlamov-Larionov line: Vladimir Vikulov. He was the guy who scored the GWGs in games 4 and 5 of the 1972 Summit Series in Moscow on Kharlamov's line. In Canada Cup '76 he scored 4 goals and 7 points in 4 games. Twice in his career he has been on a line with Kharlamov and they clicked, so should again. Vikulov has 283 goals in 520 Soviet league games, 109 goals in 190 international games.

Vladimir Vikulov was an extremely skillful and creative forward with slick stick handling, impressive 1-on-1 techniques, rapid and accurate shots on goal and well-catered assists on goals scored by his partners. Many famous players enjoyed the opportunity to play in one line with Vikulov considered one of the best Soviet playmakers in the 1960's and 1970's. The list of his career linemates included such world class individuals as Anatoly Firsov and Victor Polupanov, Valery Kharlamov and Alexander Maltsev, Boris Alexandrov and Victor Zhluktov. Overall, Vikulov was arguably one of the classiest Soviet forwards.

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1972/yroster/ru18.htm

USSR Gold (12): 1964-1966, 1968, 1970-1973, 1975, 1977-1979
WC Gold: 1966-1971, 1975
Olympics Gold: 1968, 1972
National Awards:
USSR All Stars 1970-1972
Scoring Leader (G) 1972
Merited Sports Master (USSR ZMS) 1967
International Awards:
IIHF All Stars 1971, 1972

was on a couple of the greatest Soviet lines (mentioned here on four different "great" Soviet lines, two of them with Thunder's Kharlamov):

5. Valery Kharlamov-Anatoly Firsov-Vladimir Vikulov
Team USSR and CSKA
Early 1970s

They didn't play very long together. One of the top offensive lines of the late 1960s, Firsov-Polupanov-Vikulov lost its center. Legendary Tarasov tried various players to replace Polupanov. Finally, he added Kharlamov to the famous linemates. "We didn't have to explain much to Valery," remembered Firsov. "It just clicked." Born out of Tarasov's experiments and attempts to extend hockey career of aging Red Army stars, the line is mostly remembered for its performance at the '72 Olympics. With Tarasov's retirement, Firsov left Team USSR and the Kharlamov-Maltsev-Vikulov line at the '72 Summit Series was a quick fixer-upper for a promising line.

6. Boris Alexandrov-Victor Zhluktov-Vladimir Vikulov
Team USSR and CSKA
Mid 1970s

They were the second line with the Red Army club and, briefly, with Team USSR in the 1970s. Small and speedy, Alexandrov had a promising scoring touch. Never mind his small size - no giant defenseman was an authority to Alexandrov when he was free-wheeling to the net. Vikulov had great soft hands and incredible playmaking talent. Zhluktov was not a magnificent player but served as a very solid and reliable backbone of the line.

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1974/liners/index.htm

The Canadians arrived in Moscow one game down on their opponents. After the first game at the Luzhniki Sports Palace, the gap doubled. A mistake by Clarke in the final minutes of the game cost the Canadians a tie. He was trying to control the puck near the boards and shot a pass to his partner, Rod Seiling. But Valeri Kharlamov intercepted the pass and flipped the puck to Vladimir Vikulov, who beat Tony Esposito at the net.

http://www.flyersalumni.org/clarke.htm

 

[vancityluongo]

New name. Same ineffective GM.

Teehee. That's funny.

Number 1 for me is Terry Sawchuk. I saw highlights of him, he's pretty good. (BIG Understatement...)

However, highlights do not tell you how good or bad a player is, so I can't honestly give a proper opinion to this debate, as I haven't seen any of the other candidates (except Roy).

So my vote is Sawchuk, but it's a meh-ish kind of vote.

 

[Murphy]

Now you know. And I'll agree: he is, and was, a sketchy character.

Just as long as Murph didn't show up for the press conference following one of his trademarked "beer storms."

New name. Same ineffective GM.

Just got back from the bulletin board.............

And geez, miss one pick in 4 drafts and I'm still living down the beer storm.

Does sketchy mean do anything to win? If it is then I'm the perfect GM for my team.........

I'm thinking we should re-align conferences to bring Las Vegas into the Robson. That would make three teams in the division that suck, Vegas, Trail & Vancouver

Off to admire my roster......