All the Haag hate?

[Ghosts Beer]

I think Sanheim will be fine. His MO has always been to start slowly at every new level of play.

The only thing I take issue with is how many people act like he was a good NHL defenseman last season. He got handled with kid gloves, was soft as a marshmallow, & had one of the worst giveaway/takeaway ratios in the league. He was way better after his demotion, though.

I expect him to be much improved this season, hopefully with more grit.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Nope, that’s just a weak excuse to try to deflect the legit criticisms.

It’s all about defending Hakstol, because if we admit that Hagg was severely overused (completely separate from Sanheim... just pretend he doesn’t exist) then we’re admitting that Hakstol ****ed up. By pretending it has nothing to do with Hagg being awful, it absolves Hakstol of all blame.

It’s a pathetic and transparent attempt to defend the coach, as always.

Hagg deserves every bit of “hate” he gets because he was simply awful last year. Completely overwhelmed in all three zones and no reason to expect much to change. These aren’t rookie problems, they’re core player flaws that have existed for years. The only people who think he’s going to fix them are people who didn’t watch him in the AHL.

The hatred is over the top. He’s almost certainly the most despised Flyers rookie in team history to many vocal people.
No one has said he’s more than a bottom pairing guy. Yes, he got overused, but that’s not his fault, & it ignores the fact that 3-7 on the Flyers’ D was equivalent to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

It’s reasonable to wonder why the hatred is so extreme, & figure it’s connected to his most ardent haters being bitter because they think Sanheim deserved the PT instead (and also being Morin fans whom they also feel Hagg wrongly played over).

I’ve mentioned that statistically Hagg was better than Morin on the Phantoms in 15/16 in almost every category, yet you & others act like Morin was so far superior that it’s in another stratosphere. At some point you’ve got to consider there’s an anti-Hagg bias related to more than just his play.

 

[flyershockey]

It's the same for every young athlete who struggles at the pro level, for the most part, they've been coddled their whole life, told they were special, used to dominating at lower levels with talent.

When they get to the pros, suddenly everyone is talented, and hard work, a higher motor, film study, discipline are required for success. Some rise to the challenge, some never turn potential into promise.

Some players are self-motivated, others need to be pushed, some simply won't respond to hard coaching.

So no one ever works hard before getting to the professional ranks? Got it.

Again, you've created quite the narrative on Sanheim.

 

[Oskar Man]

It's the same for every young athlete who struggles at the pro level, for the most part, they've been coddled their whole life, told they were special, used to dominating at lower levels with talent.

When they get to the pros, suddenly everyone is talented, and hard work, a higher motor, film study, discipline are required for success. Some rise to the challenge, some never turn potential into promise.

Some players are self-motivated, others need to be pushed, some simply won't respond to hard coaching.

I don't understand what narrative you're trying to spin here. As far as I can tell, Sanheim's journey seems like the opposite of what you're implying he suffered from early in his hockey career. Just read articles leading up to his draft. He was not on anyones radar as a "special" player.

From my perspective, he struggled like any other young D does. The only difference being his coach has this odd fetish for "safe" plugs and a no nonsense policy for rookie mistakes. How can you expect a young kid to grow at a rapid pace when he's getting his playing time slashed for inevitable rookie gaffs?

Also, and I'll reiterate this, using Ghosts rookie season as a benchmark for Sanheim is completely disingenuous for the most obvious reasons.

 

[Striiker]

The hatred is over the top.

Wrong.

It’s an accurate assessment.

No one has said he’s more than a bottom pairing guy.

He’d have to improve to be a bottom pairing guy. You’re overrating him by saying he is one.

lYes, he got overused, but that’s not his fault, & it ignores the fact that 3-7 on the Flyers’ D was equivalent to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic

Nobody said it’s his fault.

And saying 3-7 were all equal is also obviously incorrect. You continue to overrate him by saying that.

For one thing, Gudas and Sanheim were obviously and indisputably superior. Refusing to admit that makes your opinion worthless.

It’s reasonable to wonder why the hatred is so extreme, & figure it’s connected to his most ardent haters being bitter because they think Sanheim deserved the PT instead (and also being Morin fans whom they also feel Hagg wrongly played over).

Still trying to dismiss it as hatred and you’re still incorrect.

It has nothing to do with other players, it’s just about how bad he is.

You use this as an excuse even when the other names aren’t brought up. Notice how you were the ones to mention people other than Hagg here? The only time I even mention them is when someone else lies about them first. Then I correct the dishonesty.

I’ve mentioned that statistically Hagg was better than Morin on the Phantoms in 15/16 in almost every category, yet you & others act like Morin was so far superior that it’s in another stratosphere.

Everyone who watched them play knows this is incorrect.

At some point you’ve got to consider there’s an anti-Hagg bias related to more than just his play.

Nope. Wrong again.


Your pro-Hagg bias is blinding you.







0/6
Well at least you tried.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Is giveaway/takeaway ratio a fancy stat?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The hatred is absolutely over the top. You can’t even acknowledge he’s a bottom pair defenseman in a league where Brandon Manning just got $2.25M per. I know you aren’t given to hyperbole, but maybe consider the possibility that in this one rare exception you’re being extreme.

I’m not “pro-Hagg” just because I think the hatred toward him is ridiculously exaggerated. I wouldn’t care if he never played another game for the team. I just don’t get worked up over him like many do.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Is giveaway/takeaway ratio a fancy stat?

Call it whatever you want. The difference is that I cite stats as things to consider as part of the overall picture; you cite your fancy stats as the definitive Gospel of the Lord in player evaluation.

 

[deadhead]

I don't understand what narrative you're trying to spin here. As far as I can tell, Sanheim's journey seems like the opposite of what you're implying he suffered from early in his hockey career. Just read articles leading up to his draft. He was not on anyones radar as a "special" player.

From my perspective, he struggled like any other young D does. The only difference being his coach has this odd fetish for "safe" plugs and a no nonsense policy for rookie mistakes. How can you expect a young kid to grow at a rapid pace when he's getting his playing time slashed for inevitable rookie gaffs?

Also, and I'll reiterate this, using Ghosts rookie season as a benchmark for Sanheim is completely disingenuous for the most obvious reasons.

Sanheim was drafted #17, he started slow his draft season but finished strong. His two post draft seasons he dominated the CHL on talent. He was bigger and faster than most of his peers. And like a lot of skilled CHL stars, he isn't a fundamentally sound player.

Sanheim was clearly overmatched when he came up last year, and the coach sheltered him as much as possible, buying time for him to adjust (easier matchups, more minutes at home than on the road). He was better after he returned but still far from being a top four defenseman in the NHL.

Watching Sanheim in the AHL playoffs, I didn't see a player driven to show the FO that he belonged in the NHL, he seemed unfocused, and was outplayed by Myers.

We'll see in camp if Sanheim has grown up physically and mentally, he wasn't held back by his coach, the same coach who plays Provorov more than any veteran - he was held up by his lack of strength, his soft play and his lack of focus. It's up to him to show he's learned from his rookie year and to kick butt and take no prisoners. In the NHL, playing time should be earned, not given.

I'm skeptical about Sanheim, I'm totally confident in Lindblom, and it's from watching how both players dealt with adversity. Lindblom was a 5th rd pick who dropped due to doubts about his skating, he worked his butt off, excelled in Sweden, came here and was sent to the AHL, worked hard to improve his game there, came up, showed a nonstop motor, struggled in the playoffs, was sent back to the AHL and instead of sulking worked hard to make an impact.

 

[Striiker]

I’m not “pro-Hagg” just because I think the hatred toward him is ridiculously exaggerated. I wouldn’t care if he never played another game for the team. I just don’t get worked up over him like many do.

Oh? You don’t like your opinion being dismissed as bias? Well that’s weird...

 

[Striiker]

I don't understand what narrative you're trying to spin here. As far as I can tell, Sanheim's journey seems like the opposite of what you're implying he suffered from early in his hockey career. Just read articles leading up to his draft. He was not on anyones radar as a "special" player.

From my perspective, he struggled like any other young D does. The only difference being his coach has this odd fetish for "safe" plugs and a no nonsense policy for rookie mistakes. How can you expect a young kid to grow at a rapid pace when he's getting his playing time slashed for inevitable rookie gaffs?

Also, and I'll reiterate this, using Ghosts rookie season as a benchmark for Sanheim is completely disingenuous for the most obvious reasons.

It’s simple.

Exaggerating Sanheims faults is a way to defend Hakstol. If we’re honest about his level of play, then it proves Hakstol f***ed up by benching him. If we pretend Sanheim was horrible/lazy/soft then Hakstol did nothing wrong by not playing him.


That’s the cause of all the lying and dishonesty.

 

[FlyTimmo]

The hatred is absolutely over the top. You can’t even acknowledge he’s a bottom pair defenseman in a league where Brandon Manning just got $2.25M per. I know you aren’t given to hyperbole, but maybe consider the possibility that in this one rare exception you’re being extreme.

2.25M is only ~3% of a team's cap space. Manning is being paid to be a bottom pair defenseman. Manning is clearly a better defenseman than Hagg.

Hagg belongs in the AHL.

 

[FLYguy3911]

The hatred is absolutely over the top. You can’t even acknowledge he’s a bottom pair defenseman in a league where Brandon Manning just got $2.25M per. I know you aren’t given to hyperbole, but maybe consider the possibility that in this one rare exception you’re being extreme.

I’m not “pro-Hagg” just because I think the hatred toward him is ridiculously exaggerated. I wouldn’t care if he never played another game for the team. I just don’t get worked up over him like many do.

And Manning getting a $2.25 million contract as a UFA justifies Hagg as an NHL defenseman how? Manning is better than Hagg.

Call it whatever you want. The difference is that I cite stats as things to consider as part of the overall picture; you cite your fancy stats as the definitive Gospel of the Lord in player evaluation.

When you were citing this "stat" did you ever check to see what Robert Hagg's was. It was worse than Sanheim's.

I cite stats that have been proven to be predictive stats. You don't care to understand what these stats represent and when they don't line up with the minority opinion you choose to support, instead of having a civil back and forth you have to resort to insults and cherry picked stats that are meaningless to future results and then eventually run away when you are confronted. You've become a complete joke on these boards anymore. Most of the board wants to trade Simmonds and you want to hold on to him. What a complete shocker! I never saw that coming.

 

[Magua]

Call it whatever you want. The difference is that I cite stats as things to consider as part of the overall picture; you cite your fancy stats as the definitive Gospel of the Lord in player evaluation.

.........

I hate when people take a nuanced opinion and exaggerate it to an extreme in an effort to shoot it down.

 

[deadhead]

I have no idea why all of you weren't Islander fans last year.
Because they were playing the style you love, skate, shoot, no fundamentals, no defense no hitting.
Sanheim hockey!

Seriously, forget about Hakstol, because Ron's next hire will simply be a "warmer, fuzzier" Hakstol and you'll have the same criticism once the honeymoon is over, which will take about two weeks.

And that's because Hakstol is simply implementing what Hextall wants, a physical, fundamentally sound defensively oriented scheme where defense leads to offense, that is, first take away the puck, then drive it up ice, but without taking undue chances that lead to breakaways the other way (especially if you don't have a goalie that can stone a breakaway!). And the next coach will have a similar philosophy. You'd hate Gallant if he was the HC for that reason (go look at the reason he was fired from his previous job).

Which means the current version of Sanheim would be in the doghouse with ANY coach that Hextall hires.

The last three years have they drafted anyone as offensively oriented as Sanheim and TK? Maybe Allison?
Look how many skaters/scorers Ron has passed over.
Ron values Hockey IQ and defense more than one dimensional scorers.
And so will any coach he hires.

 

[Magua]

I have no idea why all of you weren't Islander fans last year.
Because they were playing the style you love, skate, shoot, no fundamentals, no defense no hitting.
Sanheim hockey!

The Islanders team who had the 6th worst xGF%?........being compared to the defenseman with the 11st best?

 

[FLYguy3911]

A clown show in here.

 

[Oskar Man]

My brain hurts

 

[Magua]

My brain hurts

Hagg does that to people.

 

[flyersfan187]

Sanheim wasn't great and he wasn't bad. I think he had an average season but you could see the skill that he does have and hopefully he can become a great top 4 D. Myers on the other hand though I think has more potential and can be on the top pair for years. If Myers/Sanheim/Morin all hit their potential the Flyers will be a great team for years to come.

 

[Striiker]

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Islanders team who had the 6th worst xGF%?........being compared to the defenseman with the 11st best?

Deadhead has to flat out create an alternative reality, because otherwise he'd have to acknowledge Sanheim's usage was the product of poor decisions. He cannot criticize Hakstol, therefore he has to pretend Sanheim was bad and worse dmen were better. It's incorrect, but that's what you have to do to prop up an opinion that isn't sustained by reality.

 

[Chinatown88]

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

The story of on ice shooting percentage. Same as how ghost and G were being shat on the year before that. Now it's sanheim and simmer.

 

[kudymen]

Here is an interesting stat I found. If you take PIM and subtract goals times assists, you will see that Hagg's 32-(3*6) = 14 is better than Sanheim (20-2*8=4) and even Farmer (30-6*15=-60). Now that could obviously mean nothing, might be just noise, but it may as well be a sign that Hagg is a powerhouse and should play top4 minutes because he is a bottom 6 Dman