All the Haag hate?

[Scott Taylor]

I would like to start by saying I have been following the Flyers for almost 40 years. I have watched almost every game in that time span within reason for someone who does not live in Philadelphia. I know it is in the "thousands" of games that I have followed the Orange and Black and their adventures. It has been sometimes comical, often frustrating but for the most part always entertaining. I often follow this forum and have enjoyed reading all the posts (for the most part). We have all lived through years of frustration but for the most part enjoyed a very competitive organization and team. This is not the cue for the endless responses and outrage over the merry-go-round that has been the ever revolving door of mediocre goaltenders.

I have been reading so much lately about 1 player in particular, Robert Haag, and I can't quite understand the negativity towards this player. I have seen my share of Flyers defenseman come and go over 40 years and he is nowhere near one of the worst I have seen wear the Orange and Black. I first of all would beg and plead to keep your analytical stats to yourself. I think they can be an indicator of tendencies but not an absolute when it comes to a players potential.

In my opinion, Robert Haag is developing on his way to becoming a solid player with the ability to contribute at both ends of the ice. I think unrealistic expectations are a problem that most on this board suffer from due to their thirst to find the next Mark Howe or Chris Pronger. I ask everyone on this board to watch one Flyers game and focus only on the opposing team. I know this can be difficult but I think you will find in invaluable in your understanding of the Flyers and give you excellent perspective of the team and it's players. Watch how many mistakes and turnovers the others teams players make during a course of the game. It is a game of inches my friends. We had 100 pints last year and made the playoffs but you would think we were the worst team in the league.

I want to make it clear that I love what Ron Hextall is doing and the direction he is taking this franchise. He is showing patience but at the same time not afraid to make some bold moves like signing JVR. It was Ed Sniders passion that build this great franchise but also was it's undoing in the long-term in regards to the cup. It was his love of his team and his fans that made him force the team to sign Ilya Bryzgalov. Let's be clear that I loved Ed Snider. He was a hockey fan that built and owned a hockey team. A real life fantasy hockey team.

Robert Haag is a microcosm of the Flyers misplaced passion a desire to win now. There is no one that wants to see a cup in Philadelphia Flyers win more than me. I can get you the signatures of hundreds of people who testify of my unhealthy love of the Philadelphia Flyers.
I was born in Boston and grew up a Flyers fan. I think that should be enough of a testimony. I'm sure Robert Haag would love nothing more to raise a cup in Philadelphia. Could their be a bigger thrill and moment than hoisting a cup in Broad Street?

Hockey to me is just a soap opera for men. These are the endless "Days of our Lives" that we all enjoy so much through the good and the bad. We all stood in horror as Eric Lindros laid on the ice helpless. It was as if a family member had been hurt. We feel their pain as fans of our hockey heroes. We at the same time jump into the air with fists clenched as we watch Flyers miracle comeback against Boston.

In the end it's just a game but a beautiful game indeed. I love the pleasure of taking someone to see hockey for the first time. I love to watch the look in their eyes as they see how amazing this sport is and how they can't wait to go again. I want to say thank you to the Flyers and their fans for making this such an enjoyable ride.

Let's root for the home team boys and girls. Robert Haag is one of our guys and let's hope for the best. It takes all kinds to make up a team. There are no perfect teams or perfect players. 40 years later I still bleed Orange and Black. Let's go Flyers...Let's go...

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[Hollywood Cannon]

Robert Haag is disliked because 1) He isn't very good, analytics say so (even if you don't want them posted), 2) He's playing above other young players that are far and away better than him, 3) Hak loves him, and finally 4) we can only take so much JJ "he leads the league in hits" comments.

 

[Striiker]

There’s two kinds of people:

-People who have watched Robert Hagg and know how terrible he was last year and why there isn’t much reason to expect him to improve.

-People who don’t understand why Robert Haag was getting so much hate because they weren’t paying close enough attention.

You don’t need analytical stats to see why he’s such a failure and why people dislike him. Just watch him and you’ll see a player who is nothing special defensively, a black hole offensively, and horrendous at moving the puck. Exactly the type of player who is slowly being pushed out of the league with the other no-skill, no-brain,tough guy, dinosaurs. There’s a reason I call him Grossmann 2.0.... he’s like a clone.

And I know this is the Internet and typically pointing out spelling errors is a waste of time, but if you're going to try to argue with about a player but didn’t even watch him closely enough to pick up how his name is spelled, I’m not going to put much trust in your observational skills. Once is a typo, five times is not knowing his name.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Interesting that between him, Laughton and Morin he is the biggest scapegoat despite being drafted later than other two. I guess maybe its announcers creaming their pants every time he is on the ice that's the main force behind the hate?

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

There’s two kinds of people:

-People who have watched Robert Hagg and know how terrible he was last year and why there isn’t much reason to expect him to improve.

-People who don’t understand why Robert Haag was getting so much hate because they weren’t paying close enough attention.

You don’t need analytical stats to see why he’s such a failure and why people dislike him. Just watch him and you’ll see a player who is nothing special defensively, a black hole offensively, and horrendous at moving the puck. Exactly the type of player who is slowly being pushed out of the league with the other no-skill, no-brain,tough guy, dinosaurs. There’s a reason I call him Grossmann 2.0.... he’s like a clone.

And I know this is the Internet and typically pointing out spelling errors is a waste of time, but if you're going to try to argue with about a player but didn’t even watch him closely enough to pick up how his name is spelled, I’m not going to put much trust in your observational skills. Once is a typo, five times is not knowing his name.

Dude even wears his old number lol.

 

[deadhead]

The horror, the horror. Rather, The nonsense, the nonsense.

The hate on Hagg is really built around wet dream fantasies of the play Sanheim MAY become in a couple years when he fills out, plays with more of an edge, doesn't look like a deer in the headlights, and learns how to finish on offense.

Hagg doesn't have that kind of talent, but his usage was primarily due to Gudas and Sanheim self-destructing, Gudas was suspended ten games and lost his mojo, and Sanheim was one of the few players I've seen who needed severe sheltering (easy matchups, 2 minutes a game more PT at home than on the road). By the end of the year Hagg was playing 3rd pair minutes when Sanheim returned playing better hockey.

Hagg needs to improve, as do practically all rookies.
He needs to improve his ice awareness, and be more decisive with his outlet passes, a quicker skater, and be more aggressive (to a limited degree) on offense. But he just needs to make incremental improvements because the goal isn't to make him a top four defenseman, but a solid 3rd pair guy who can be an anchor on the PK.

Very few NHL teams have a sixth defenseman as good or better than Hagg.
Flyer fans just don't watch other teams or they'd realize that, there's a lot of dreck playing on 3rd pairs around the league.
When you get down to the 170th or so defenseman, you're pretty much scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[HerbertJGreen]

I'm not in love with Hagg but I think as a 6/7 Dman he's not that bad. Problem was playing him as a #4.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

He’s not good.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

It’s not hate, he’s just bad.

 

[StoneHands]

I don't really get it either. I don't think Hagg is good but when a rookie with a ceiling of probably a #5 is thrown into top 4 minutes he's going to get eaten alive so it's not really surprising. The same way I cringe every time Raffl is thrown into the top 6 but I think he's a solid bottom 6 player. I think once Myers and Sanheim hit their stride and Hagg is a 3rd pairing defenseman playing 16-17 minutes a game he will be fine in that role.

 

[HerbertJGreen]

Of the 72 rookie Dmen he was 5th in TOI/GP and 7th in Shifts/GP. Over-utilized.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He isn't good with the puck. That's a problem, particularly in a coaching scheme that emphasizes dmen having the puck.

 

[Rebels57]

Hagg is not good at hockey but is given the icetime and respect by our media as if he is. This is pretty simple.

He's no better than a guy like Nick Schultz. Did Schultz cause so much controversy? No. Why didn't he? Because he wasn't given top 4 icetime and he wasn't treated as the 2nd coming of Adam Foote by the local media.

Also, learn how to spell his name if you're going to use your first comment to make a passionate defense of his value as a hockey player

 

[Striiker]

Dude even wears his old number lol.

I’m starting to think they actually are the same person, but he had plastic surgery to get another shot in the NHL.

Or maybe he killed the real Hagg a few years ago and replaced him?

 

[deadhead]

Hagg is not good at hockey but is given the icetime and respect by our media as if he is. This is pretty simple.

He's no better than a guy like Nick Schultz. Did Schultz cause so much controversy? No. Why didn't he? Because he wasn't given top 4 icetime and he wasn't treated as the 2nd coming of Adam Foote by the local media.

Also, learn how to spell his name if you're going to use your first comment to make a passionate defense of his value as a hockey player

Well, there's no defending the local media.

Hagg got those minutes by default, wasn't his fault Gudas got suspended, Sanheim went brain dead and Morin got hurt.
By February, the universe returned to normal and he was playing 17 minutes a night.

People just make much too big of a deal of a 3rd pair defenseman.

 

[Striiker]

The issue is that there’s two separate problems here.

#1) Hagg is an awful hockey player.

#2) Hakstol made SEVERELY overused Hagg

Haggs defenders try to pretend that #2 is the only reason people hate on him, which is plain false. The reason #2 is even a problem is because of #1.

Then Hakstol defenders try to pretend that the only reason #1 happened is because of #2, and the only reason #2 happened was because Hakstol had no other choice, which is also a blatent lie. Even with the other options flaws, they are all clearly superior players to Hagg. Having no perfect options doesn’t excuse picking the worst one.

It’s just a tangled web of lies and excuses for Hagg, when the simple fact is he sucks at hockey and there’s no excuse for his play.

 

[Magua]

I apologize for being rude, but what is this?

Like 10% of it is about Hagg; 90% of it is a Flyers retrospective or mushy generalities about the game of hockey. I’m not sure a single tangible point was made to validate Hagg’s on-ice work. It was an emotional appeal. But I did enjoy the “keep your stats to yourself” line.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

To reiterate what I wrote in another thread recently:

From Feb 1 to the end of the season Hagg ranked 7th among Flyers defensemen in ES TOI/g.

He only played in 2 of 6 playoff games, averaging only 11:50 TOI in those games.

He was healthy scratched at both the end of the regular season & playoffs.

He was played like a #4 at times, but that stopped.

And over the course of the season Hagg & Manning’s ES TOI was virtually identical (16:27 v 16:25) so they were interchangeable as 4 & 5.

And look at the D on the roster. You’re talking about a corps that after Provorov & Ghost at 1 & 2 had AMac, Manning, Hagg, Gudas, & Sanheim available for 3-7. Deck chairs on the Titanic. Gudas showed in the playoffs why they didn’t trust him this season, & when Sanheim played better after his recall, he got more time than Hagg.

So acting like Hagg was used as the team’s clear 4 throughout the season & will be again now that he’s signed is not accurate.

 

[HerbertJGreen]

I apologize for being rude, but what is this?

Like 10% of it is about Hagg; but for the most part it is a Flyers retrospective or mushy generalities about the game of hockey. I’m not sure a single tangible point was made to validate Hagg’s on-ice work. It was an emotional appeal. But I did enjoy the “keep your stats to yourself” line.

Fixed. Sorry to the OP, I just couldn't help myself.

 

[BernieParent]

First off (if you have bravely read all the way to here ), welcome to the Boards, Scott. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I can relate to your experience as a Flyers fan growing up in hostile hockey territory. Try doing that in Montreal!

For me, Hagg is a lightning rod. He is overused (coach) and overhyped (media). He was also selected to start the season over the much more talented Sanheim, which as you know didn't go over too well here. It's hard to divorce bad feelings for coaching / GM decisions from the player who (I feel) unjustly benefits to the (I feel) detriment of the team. It is particularly difficult when the coach has a tendency to use different metrics for ice time for different players.

My impressions of Hagg's skill level aren't as pointed as those of others here, but I see his shortcomings. He needs a lot of work to refine his defensive game and a LOT of work to refine his offense. Yeah, stats don't tell the whole picture, but they bring a set of evaluable numbers to compare with the eye test, particularly as a player progresses in leagues. Hagg's low offensive acumen in the AHL doesn't give optimism that he can improve at the highest level of competition.

Put Hagg on the bottom pairing in a lineup without Andrew MacDonald? Not a peep from me.

 

[Rebels57]

When Morin is healthy and up-and-running, Hagg should be a healthy scratch. He won't be though.

 

[Young Sandwich]

This thread should be tarred and feathered and then set on fire before the ashes get pissed on by each member of this forum.

Reading about people dumping on Hagg is getting old around here, no matter how much he sucks at hockey.

 

[nuclear reactor]

The people who hate Hagg are the some of the most obnoxious people around here. They are also pretty much right, unfortunately.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I apologize for being rude, but what is this?

Like 10% of it is about Hagg; 90% of it is a Flyers retrospective or mushy generalities about the game of hockey. I’m not sure a single tangible point was made to validate Hagg’s on-ice work. It was an emotional appeal. But I did enjoy the “keep your stats to yourself” line.

 

[deadhead]

And Sanheim needs a lot of work to be a top 4 defenseman, which he certainly wasn't last year.
He needs to get stronger, smarter and tougher and more defensively responsible.
He's not Ghost, he can't outscore his mistakes while he learns to play NHL caliber defense.
If he can't win board battles, get back on defense, and have better gap control he shouldn't be in the top four.

When Striiker whines once more that "they are all clearly superior players to Hagg" he means ONLY Sanheim, because we all know he hates MacDonald and Manning, who played more than Hagg the last third of the season, as did Gudas.

Feb - April
Hagg 16:44 (but Hagg played more on the PK than Sanheim on PP2)
Sanheim 16:30
Gudas 17:47
MacDonald 19:23
Manning 17:45

Sanheim the first part of the season was a bad player in every aspect of his game - 35g 1-4 5 -10, couldn't score, couldn't keep the other team from scoring, didn't have a clue. When he came back he played better, 3rd pair better.

With Gudas out or in a funk, and Morin hurt, Hagg was the only physical defenseman other than Provorov.
The rest were basically marshmallows. Manning tried but getting beat up on a regular basis doesn't make you physical.
That's why Hagg played a lot of minutes the first half of the season.

The fact that Ron let Manning walk says he wants Sanheim or Myers or both to grab a top four spot.