All purpose trade/roster building thread part 12

[Tryamw]

I disagree, where's my spot?

In the Cheap seats? (AKA not on the team)

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

If you think I ruined a good time with that stupid post you really have gone soft.

as soon as someone goes from grower to shower, fun has taken its course.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

as soon as someone goes from grower to shower, fun has taken its course.

What about the grower in the shower?

 

[2Minutes4Surging]

@Boom Boom Apathy

US federal income taxes are around 37% for these players. NC state income taxes are 5.25%. That is almost 15% additional taxes. (37*.15=5.55) NYC would be more than 30% in additional taxes.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

@Boom Boom Apathy

US federal income taxes are around 37% for these players. NC state income taxes are 5.25%. That is almost 15% additional taxes. (37*.15=5.55) NYC would be more than 30% in additional taxes.

Ok, That's not how I read what you originally wrote. What you wrote in the original post was they'd "have to give away 15-25% for state income taxes", which to me was read as they'd give away 15-25% of their salary to state income taxes...which is not the case. Now you are clarifying that you were talking about % of taxes paid. Still, you are ignoring the Jock Tax where state income taxes only apply to home games so the burden is 1/2 of what you are assuming.

Again, the simple example:

Florida Player has an AGI of $2,000,000
37% fed = 740,000 tax burden
0% state = 0 (for only 1/2 of the games - home games).
Total (excluding away games) = $740,000

NC Player has an AGI of $2,000,000
37% Fed = 740,000 Tax Burden
5.25% state for 1/2 of the games (home games) = $52,500
Total (excluding away games) = $792,500

So the burden for a player playing in Carolina vs. Florida is $52,500 out of a $2,000,000 AGI (or 2.6% of their total AGI).
If you want to use % of taxes, it doesn't change the $52,500, but for completeness 52,500 / 740,000 = 7%.

Now, $52,500 is still not insignificant, but it's less than 3% of what the player earns so it's not as egregious as some make it seem.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Seeing how next season will be compressed, do we run a 13 forward, 7 d roster for most of the season to increase depth? Or do we roll with Bean and Keane as the depth for each side of defense and a Bishop type for a depth forward to save all the cap space we can?

I wonder if middle to upper tier guys (5+ million cap hit guys) are going to have to take shorter and cheaper deals (less than current cap hits) in order to play on better teams because of the lack of cap growth. A guy like Craig Smith might in that category and a good target. Not a big hitter but a great 3 RW option. Plays a 200 foot game, adds some offense (.35 ppg) and is decent in the circle. Shattenkirk might be another with his good play on a very team friendly one year deal with TB. Vantanen too. All three of those probably are worth a good amount if they settle for Montreal, Ottawa, LA, or NJ. There are a couple of others that have decent cap space not earmarked for current roster players. AVS are the one exception.

Bottom line / bottom pairing guys should have plenty of market as teams will have cap space for depth guys. Unless, that is, the middle tier guys start selling low early to get anything they can.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

The Jack Eichel discussion on the main thread is fun to think about

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

As usual, I expect that the Canes' UFA activity, if any, will be post-Day 1. I would personally look at Granlund and Vatanen as potential adds, if they're willing to take short-term pacts. Craig Smith is a good choice, as well, for that type. None of our players, outside of Staal, are unmoveable anchor-types of contracts, so if the UFA value's good, you can pretty easily deal one or two of McGinn/Martinook/Reimer/Mrazek to clear roster and cap space for middle-six improvements, as well as make room for both Lorentz and Bishop to compete for a roster spot. If Taylor Hall is interested in Carolina in UFA, Foegele can likely fetch a late 1st with an extension. If Skjei performs really well this post-season (which is a real possibility), I actually would not be surprised at all if he gets flipped to a third team if they offer up a 1st +.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

As usual, I expect that the Canes' UFA activity, if any, will be post-Day 1. I would personally look at Granlund and Vatanen as potential adds, if they're willing to take short-term pacts. Craig Smith is a good choice, as well, for that type. None of our players, outside of Staal, are unmoveable anchor-types of contracts, so if the UFA value's good, you can pretty easily deal one or two of McGinn/Martinook/Reimer/Mrazek to clear roster and cap space for middle-six improvements, as well as make room for both Lorentz and Bishop to compete for a roster spot. If Taylor Hall is interested in Carolina in UFA, Foegele can likely fetch a late 1st with an extension. If Skjei performs really well this post-season (which is a real possibility), I actually would not be surprised at all if he gets flipped to a third team if they offer up a 1st +.

I could see Vatanen or maybe TVR come back if we move both 2 lefty defenders with one being a 4 million + one. Preferably either on a one year deal to give Keane some more seasoning.

We would have to move some serious cap to afford Hall, short and long term.

Craig Smith would be a great addition on the right side of Staal. I don’t know that he would agree to a contract that we would prefer.

overall with the flat cap, I wonder if the middle of the road FAs will do this offseason. They will be stuck fighting over Colorado / a bad team or take a risk at short & smaller money deals.

 

[Tryamw]

Ok, That's not how I read what you originally wrote. What you wrote in the original post was they'd "have to give away 15-25% for state income taxes", which to me was read as they'd give away 15-25% of their salary to state income taxes...which is not the case. Now you are clarifying that you were talking about % of taxes paid. Still, you are ignoring the Jock Tax where state income taxes only apply to home games so the burden is 1/2 of what you are assuming.

Again, the simple example:

Florida Player has an AGI of $2,000,000
37% fed = 740,000 tax burden
0% state = 0 (for only 1/2 of the games - home games).
Total (excluding away games) = $740,000

NC Player has an AGI of $2,000,000
37% Fed = 740,000 Tax Burden
5.25% state for 1/2 of the games (home games) = $52,500
Total (excluding away games) = $792,500

So the burden for a player playing in Carolina vs. Florida is $52,500 out of a $2,000,000 AGI (or 2.6% of their total AGI).
If you want to use % of taxes, it doesn't change the $52,500, but for completeness 52,500 / 740,000 = 7%.

Now, $52,500 is still not insignificant, but it's less than 3% of what the player earns so it's not as egregious as some make it seem.

I'll take the 52.5k

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

knowing FA Frenzy is November 1st....

do we have a performance bonus issue concern for next season? The last thing I read we were allowed a 7.5% cushion for performance bonuses which would be 6.11 million. We have 4.5 million in bonuses. I remember Toronto carrying 4.5 million of performance bonuses against the cap a couple of seasons ago when Nylander, Matthews, and Marner were on ELCs. Did they really have 11 million in performance bonuses or is this cap source wrong?

 

[Lempo]

knowing FA Frenzy is November 1st....

do we have a performance bonus issue concern for next season? The last thing I read we were allowed a 7.5% cushion for performance bonuses which would be 6.11 million. We have 4.5 million in bonuses. I remember Toronto carrying 4.5 million of performance bonuses against the cap a couple of seasons ago when Nylander, Matthews, and Marner were on ELCs. Did they really have 11 million in performance bonuses or is this cap source wrong?

When our only problem with performance bonuses is that Svech actually may be a league top-10 in G/A/P/PpG and get $1.8M for it, we have zero problems with performance bonuses.

The cushion works so that the amount of bonuses exceeding the cap ceiling will roll over to the next year, and TOR was constantly at the ceiling because of their LTIR shenanigans. The year you mention (quite likely) had rollovers from Matthews ($2.85M) and Nylander and Marner (both $850k) maxing out theirs on the previous year.

Lou notoriously didn't believe in performance bonuses, until he was kind of forced to give Matthews his $2M in Schedule B that is the prerogative of 1OA in 2016. This bit them hard in the Marner RFA negotiations, when he carried a chip from the season he was top-10 in points or something (and Matthews wasn't) but didn't get the money due to Lou's no bonus policy in 2015 and saw that he got reimbursed for the full amount in the RFA contract to the extent that he was paid more than Matthews on the first year of their RFA contracts.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

When our only problem with performance bonuses is that Svech actually may be a league top-10 in G/A/P/PpG and get $1.8M for it, we have zero problems with performance bonuses.

The cushion works so that the amount of bonuses exceeding the cap ceiling will roll over to the next year, and TOR was constantly at the ceiling because of their LTIR shenanigans. The year you mention (quite likely) had rollovers from Matthews ($2.85M) and Nylander and Marner (both $850k) maxing out theirs on the previous year.

Lou notoriously didn't believe in performance bonuses, until he was kind of forced to give Matthews his $2M in Schedule B that is the prerogative of 1OA in 2016. This bit them hard in the Marner RFA negotiations, when he carried a chip from the season he was top-10 in points or something (and Matthews wasn't) but didn't get the money due to Lou's no bonus policy in 2015 and saw that he got reimbursed for the full amount in the RFA contract to the extent that he was paid more than Matthews on the first year of their RFA contracts.

that is what I thought. So our cap is really 77 million for next year.

 

[EXTRAS]

How would you guys rank your dmen?

In the few games skjei played for you did he play as a bottom pairing guy, and how well did he play?

 

[GoldiFox]

How would you guys rank your dmen?

In the few games skjei played for you did he play as a bottom pairing guy, and how well did he play?

Skjei had ~122 5v5 minutes with the Canes and played 91 of them (75%) of them with Haydn Fleury on the Canes 2nd pair. His next most common D partner was Jaccob Slavin at 13% on the 1st pair.

It's hard to say how well Skjei played because the Canes defense was in tatters when they acquired him. Dougie Hamilton and Brett Pesce were injured. Newly acquire Sami Vatanen was injured. The partner Skjei played 75% of his 5v5 time with (Fleury) had been a healthy scratch and/or afterthought for much of the year. Skjei often played his off-side as both Fleury and Slavin are lefties.

Skjei made a few glaring defensive-zone gaffes which cost chances/goals against. However, on the whole I would say that he is a good example of what the Canes want in a defenseman. He is big, mobile, and counter-attacks in the defensive and neutral zone when he has an opportunity. The Canes like defenseman who will activate to join the rush and Skjei does that well.

I'd rank the Canes D: Slavin --> Hamilton --> Pesce --> Skjei --> Vatanen--> Fleury --> Gardiner --> Edmundson --> TVR

Jake Bean and Joey Keane will enter the conversation next year. Anttoni Honka soon after.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

How would you guys rank your dmen?

In the few games skjei played for you did he play as a bottom pairing guy, and how well did he play?

He jumped in as the third Dman in TOI despite never playing with the team.

had good rushes, had some trouble clearing the zone. This new kickoff to the season will see how much of his issues were not knowing the the system.

 

[bleedgreen]

Skjei looked awesome leaving the zone with the puck or attacking the zone with or without it. Confident in his lanes jumping in all the way to the net. Great fit for the system that way. Was good finding passing targets once he was in motion. In his own end he was an adventure, good effort but not quick to find the right spots of the ice and was really bobbly with the puck on his stick when he needed to be poised the most. Using a stick that long with the flex the guys like to use right now might be a bad mix for him defensively depending on what he’s using. A little too much hot potato.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Skjei looked awesome leaving the zone with the puck or attacking the zone with or without it. Confident in his lanes jumping in all the way to the net. Great fit for the system that way. Was good finding passing targets once he was in motion. In his own end he was an adventure, good effort but not quick to find the right spots of the ice and was really bobbly with the puck on his stick when he needed to be poised the most. Using a stick that long with the flex the guys like to use right now might be a bad mix for him defensively depending on what he’s using. A little too much hot potato.

Given the situation in which we traded for him this never really occurred to me before now, but a Skjei-Pesce pairing might have some similar dynamics to the Slavin-Hamilton one.

 

[CandyCanes]

Skjei had ~122 5v5 minutes with the Canes and played 91 of them (75%) of them with Haydn Fleury on the Canes 2nd pair. His next most common D partner was Jaccob Slavin at 13% on the 1st pair.

It's hard to say how well Skjei played because the Canes defense was in tatters when they acquired him. Dougie Hamilton and Brett Pesce were injured. Newly acquire Sami Vatanen was injured. The partner Skjei played 75% of his 5v5 time with (Fleury) had been a healthy scratch and/or afterthought for much of the year. Skjei often played his off-side as both Fleury and Slavin are lefties.

Skjei made a few glaring defensive-zone gaffes which cost chances/goals against. However, on the whole I would say that he is a good example of what the Canes want in a defenseman. He is big, mobile, and counter-attacks in the defensive and neutral zone when he has an opportunity. The Canes like defenseman who will activate to join the rush and Skjei does that well.

I'd rank the Canes D: Slavin --> Hamilton --> Pesce --> Skjei --> Vatanen--> Fleury --> Gardiner --> Edmundson --> TVR

Jake Bean and Joey Keane will enter the conversation next year. Anttoni Honka soon after.

This is exactly how I’d rank our D too.

 

[Chrispy]

Skjei had ~122 5v5 minutes with the Canes and played 91 of them (75%) of them with Haydn Fleury on the Canes 2nd pair. His next most common D partner was Jaccob Slavin at 13% on the 1st pair.

It's hard to say how well Skjei played because the Canes defense was in tatters when they acquired him. Dougie Hamilton and Brett Pesce were injured. Newly acquire Sami Vatanen was injured. The partner Skjei played 75% of his 5v5 time with (Fleury) had been a healthy scratch and/or afterthought for much of the year. Skjei often played his off-side as both Fleury and Slavin are lefties.

Skjei made a few glaring defensive-zone gaffes which cost chances/goals against. However, on the whole I would say that he is a good example of what the Canes want in a defenseman. He is big, mobile, and counter-attacks in the defensive and neutral zone when he has an opportunity. The Canes like defenseman who will activate to join the rush and Skjei does that well.

I'd rank the Canes D: Slavin --> Hamilton --> Pesce --> Skjei --> Vatanen--> Fleury --> Gardiner --> Edmundson --> TVR

Jake Bean and Joey Keane will enter the conversation next year. Anttoni Honka soon after.

I would debate the bottom (we've never seen Vatanen in this system for instance) but is it even worth the typing over 3 UFAs out of the bottom 5?

Top 4 +Fleury + Gardiner for a very good D next year.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I would debate the bottom (we've never seen Vatanen in this system for instance) but is it even worth the typing over 3 UFAs out of the bottom 5?

Top 4 +Fleury + Gardiner for a very good D next year.

My personal rank for defensemen in our team is Hamilton > Slavin > Pesce > Skjei > Gardiner > Fleury = Vatanen > TVR = Edmundson. That may change, of course, if either Gardiner, Skjei, or Vatanen comes flying out of the gate this postseason.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

We'll have some serious options this off-season and a flat cap and us having 4 million less cap money makes it harder...

Stay put and re-sign the RFAs
Make a decision of Skjei vs Gardiner vs Fleury vs Bean
Make a decision of Nino vs Dzingle vs someone else to improve the top 6
Make a decision on Mrazek vs Reimer vs Lehner vs someone else to improve the net

My votes:
Gardiner off the island
Dzingle off the island
one of the goalies off the island
trade for Raanta
get a RH winger to play on Staal's line
sign TVR to a short deal or trade for Demers

its going to take some real effort by the management team. Also really hope they have a better off-season than the past one.

 

[spockBokk]

We'll have some serious options this off-season and a flat cap and us having 4 million less cap money makes it harder...

Stay put and re-sign the RFAs
Make a decision of Skjei vs Gardiner vs Fleury vs Bean
Make a decision of Nino vs Dzingle vs someone else to improve the top 6
Make a decision on Mrazek vs Reimer vs Lehner vs someone else to improve the net

My votes:
Gardiner off the island
Dzingle off the island
one of the goalies off the island
trade for Raanta
get a RH winger to play on Staal's line
sign TVR to a short deal or trade for Demers

its going to take some real effort by the management team. Also really hope they have a better off-season than the past one.

For better or worse, I think Gardiner and more so Dzingel are in Raleigh for another year at least. The return you’d likely get would not be worth it. In my view, teams will be looking for dollar in, dollar out trades or for a good asset added to a cap dump. It may be worth using an asset, depending on which asset, to attach to Gardiner to be rid of his $4M for the next 3yrs, but with Dzingel still having it in him to be a top 9 scorer and with his relatively cheap deal expiring at the end of next season, I think they hold onto him.

I think you’ll end up seeing all of Gardiner, Skjei and Fleury as part of the blue line in some form or another this coming season, with the expansion draft finally providing a resolution to that logjam one way or another. I think Bean gets dealt at the draft or in the short offseason.

I like Geekie as a RW with Staal, taking Williams’ spot. I wouldn’t mind TVR back, depending on cost. I don’t think they make many moves at all this offseason.

In goal, who friggin knows. That’s really the position they need to improve. I got nothing there. It’ll be tough making moves with both Reimer and Mrazek having a year left on their deals at $3M each.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

@spockBokk i agree. We more than likely see a stand pat and re-sign folks more than anything.

Just if I had a vote things would be different.

Unfortunately moving both goalies as mentioned will be very tough so that basically eliminates getting Lehner. Ah to imagine signing Lehner to a deal he was comfortable with and not signing Gardiner and Mrazek this past offseason (and saving some cap money).

 

[A Star is Burns]

Hopefully games are played, and we make it further than the play in, cause that will probably provide us with some good insight into where guys stand. Dzingel could find himself playing closer to what he did early in the season when he was good with Necas and Haula. Gardiner could improve on his play, that was already improving, by getting some time to heal nagging ailments. Geekie might show where he's at other than a 2 game sample. Nino may gloriously break out of his funk where he was creating chances but getting no luck. Fleury may improve on his lack of consistency. Guys like Skjei and Trocheck may look much better than what we saw having a much better acclimation period now. Vatanen will actually exist. There's a lot of roster questions that have the potential to be answered in the tournament.