All Purpose Mitch Marner Talk

[Stephen]

Did you miss the part where we instantly went from worst team in the league to perennial playoff team that can take league powerhouses to the limit in the playoffs?

If you recall that season had nothing to do with a 90 point season from Marner, or any amazing points per game scoring rate from Marner specifically. That season was driven by the promotion of half a dozen rookies and stabile goaltending. The Leafs didn’t really take any tangible steps forward from that stepping off point in season 3 when Marner had his great personal statistical output but Toronto remained a one round playoff team.

 

[Stephen]

I've watched quite a bit of Kane. I also watched quite a bit of Kane when he was Marner's age, and it wasn't the same, and it was more inconsistent. Part of the issue you might be having by watching YouTube tape is that those are most often those players in their best moments. Seems rather inconsistent to compare best moments for one player, to the more mediocre moments of another player during their relatively down, injury-filled season.

Stylistically, these players are not exact copies (nobody is), but there are many aspects to them that are similar, as evidenced by the description you gave, which could have been a word for word description of Marner's 2018-2019 season.

See, the whole difference between Marner and Kane as far as style is concerned doesn’t have a lot to do specifically with age. Kane has just always played the game with more control, elusiveness and has a better ability to buy space for himself because he also has an above average shot arsenal.

When you want to make the age comparison independent of style comparison, was Kane perfect at 21? Hardly. Did Marner outscore Kane at 21, yep. But like I said what makes him very special along with Toews and the Blackhawks is they actually won the Stanley Cup on ELC’s and then continued to win, and then also had individual success via personal trophies, 40 goal and 100 point seasons.

To put it another way, if we’re just restricting things to Kane’s experience vs Marner’s up to 21 years of age? I would much rather have a Leafs Stanley Cup and less offensive production from Marner, than a 94 point season and 90 point pace.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If you recall that season had nothing to do with a 90 point season from Marner, or any amazing points per game scoring rate from Marner specifically. That season was driven by the promotion of half a dozen rookies and stabile goaltending.

It was driven primarily by the addition of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Andersen. Marner was a big part of that massive leap in team success, and his "points per game" undervalues him and his impact that season.

The Leafs didn’t really take any tangible steps forward from that stepping off point in season 3 when Marner had his great personal statistical output but Toronto remained a one round playoff team.

Toronto did take a step forward in 2018-2019. It was our best year. Even in the playoffs, when facing one of the best teams in the league again, they had series leads and played quite well at 5v5, despite the injuries. Penalty kill really sunk them. You're putting way too much emphasis on playoff outcomes and attributing it to individuals without considering context or why things happened.

Kane has just always played the game with more control, elusiveness and has a better ability to buy space for himself

That is not true.

But like I said what makes him very special along with Toews and the Blackhawks is they actually won the Stanley Cup on ELC’s and then continued to win

That makes Chicago, as a team, special. And even then, it should come with the recognition of the massive advantage they received from now-illegal contracts.

and then also had individual success via personal trophies, 40 goal and 100 point seasons.

Because they were given the time and opportunities to do that.

To put it another way, if we’re just restricting things to Kane’s experience vs Marner’s up to 21 years of age? I would much rather have a Leafs Stanley Cup and less offensive production from Marner, than a 94 point season and 90 point pace.

It's a 93 point pace, and of course we'd all rather have the Stanley Cup, but that's a team accomplishment. Marner brings us closer to that end goal than Kane would.

 

[Notsince67]

If you recall earlier in Kane’s career, what made him and Toews and the Blackhawks special is they won the Stanley Cup multiple and as young players they had an uncanny ability to slay any dragon in the playoffs, whether that was Detroit, Vancouver who was coming into contention at the same time, or Los Angeles who was also winning cups.

Now you might turn around and say “team accomplishment!” But to tell you quite bluntly, I don’t really put that much emphasis on Marner’s point pace or production because it’s never been linked to Toronto having a ton of team success. If anything it does back to the contract and how the team had to pay through the nose for his numbers.

Show me one reputable contract model that references a stanley cup variable as part of its comparable assessments. One single reference that says a player gets less because they havent won a stanley cup.

You talk about linking a players ability to a teams success and disregard Marners metrics because you feel like it.
You are making this stuff up as you go. There is no attribution to stanley cup success as a determinor of contract in practice in the nhl. There are a dozen of variables that point to Marner's ability as a player. Saying that just because the stats points to the fact that he plays well, it still doesn't prove he is linked to Toronto's success, is pure sophism.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

10 years ago Kane controlled the ice. I remember him at the Olympics and he was terrifying, cutting into the zone head up and pushing the Canadian defence back. I think of him as more of an equal to Mackinnon or McDavid rather than Mitch.
Hard to read this thread where people are claiming Mitch is better than Kane at his age, it’s simply absurd, go back and watch the olympics and imagine Marner dominating the ice like that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

it’s simply absurd, go back and watch the olympics and imagine Marner dominating the ice like that.

It's not hard to imagine, but that aside, are you seriously comparing Kane on a stacked all-star USA Olympic team to Marner's play on an NHL team?

 

[Guided by Veseys]

It's not hard to imagine, but that aside, are you seriously comparing Kane on a stacked all-star USA Olympic team to Marner's play on an NHL team?

Um yes?
This would be Pat Kane handling the puck and bearing down directly on the best defence in the world. Look if you don’t have a point don’t waste time with such a useless sidetrack of an “argument “. Your pretty much on an island of your own in your feelings regarding Mitch vs Kane, it’s insufferable to endure your unabashed arrogance on this. There’s probably 5 people in the world that might agree with you on this one.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Um yes?

Well then there's part of your problem. You're judging Kane based on your rose-coloured memory of him on a stacked all-star team during one of his best years. Kane has just 9 points in 12 Olympic games BTW.

 

[Cleetus]

Um yes?
This would be Pat Kane handling the puck and bearing down directly on the best defence in the world. Look if you don’t have a point don’t waste time with such a useless sidetrack of an “argument “. Your pretty much on an island of your own in your feelings regarding Mitch vs Kane, it’s insufferable to endure your unabashed arrogance on this. There’s probably 5 people in the world that might agree with you on this one.

ill take the under on 5 people lol

 

[Wafflewhipper]

So whats the consensus after 4 more pages again i wonder. No shot and over paid and his family sucks. I don’t know what hasn’t been talked about already. He’s on a contract coming off a 26 g 94 point season and was on a same trajectory of 93 points this season. Runs the powerplay and kills penalties full time. If you don’t like him you are completely out your mind.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Um yes?
This would be Pat Kane handling the puck and bearing down directly on the best defence in the world. Look if you don’t have a point don’t waste time with such a useless sidetrack of an “argument “. Your pretty much on an island of your own in your feelings regarding Mitch vs Kane, it’s insufferable to endure your unabashed arrogance on this. There’s probably 5 people in the world that might agree with you on this one.

Marner and Kane a good comparables in certain regards. This thread is a waste of a good server

 

[Zarley Zalapski]

Trade Marner to NYR for the #1OA pick and draft Alexis Lafreniere (LW).

$10.893 mil out and ELC @ $925k in for the next 3 years of a flat cap.

Alexis Lafreniere --- Matthews -- Hyman

Use the $10 mil recapture space to sign Dmen to build up the team.

Reilly -- Pietrangelo

Cap wise AP +AL = MM

I think the Rangers GM would be fired on the spot if he made that trade.

 

[Notsince67]

Um yes?
This would be Pat Kane handling the puck and bearing down directly on the best defence in the world. Look if you don’t have a point don’t waste time with such a useless sidetrack of an “argument “. Your pretty much on an island of your own in your feelings regarding Mitch vs Kane, it’s insufferable to endure your unabashed arrogance on this. There’s probably 5 people in the world that might agree with you on this one.

There are probably a few million people in the world that could identify your logical fallacy associated with an appeal to authority. Either you have the jam to argue the details on your own or study harder and then make an argument.

 

[egd27]

So whats the consensus after 4 more pages again i wonder. No shot and over paid and his family sucks. I don’t know what hasn’t been talked about already. He’s on a contract coming off a 26 g 94 point season and was on a same trajectory of 93 points this season. Runs the powerplay and kills penalties full time. If you don’t like him you are completely out your mind.

You can like and appreciate what he does and still think he is overpaid.

 

[Martin Skoula]

10 years ago Kane controlled the ice. I remember him at the Olympics and he was terrifying, cutting into the zone head up and pushing the Canadian defence back. I think of him as more of an equal to Mackinnon or McDavid rather than Mitch.
Hard to read this thread where people are claiming Mitch is better than Kane at his age, it’s simply absurd, go back and watch the olympics and imagine Marner dominating the ice like that.

That would be a good point if players got paid based on how they look cutting into the zone in the Olympics. NHL contracts are based on NHL production unfortunately.

 

[ACC1224]

You can like and appreciate what he does and still think he is overpaid.

Some can’t separate one from the other.
It’s unanimous he’s overpaid, nothing really to discuss there.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

That would be a good point if players got paid based on how they look cutting into the zone in the Olympics. NHL contracts are based on NHL production unfortunately.

I just used Olympic because that is obviously highest level of play and he was great. For NHL he had 28 points in 22 games as the hawks won the cup. Of course because both team USA and the hawks were great some folks may lean on that to diminish Kane’s ability, should they feel so inclined.

 

[Gabriel426]

Let’s put it this way:
What is the value of Marner in the trade market one for one? Cap aside would you make the following trade?
If the answer is a quick yes, that’s mean Marner is an inferior player compare to the other player.
If the answer is no, it means Marner is a superior player.
But if the answer is maybe and then become a yes due to cap, that’s Marner’s value.
For example, I believe Marner is a much better player than any players in the draft. But if Rangers calls and offer 1OA. The answer might lean toward yes due to freeing up cap space esp since Pietra is available as a UFA. That’s not saying Marner sucks....but Laf and Pietra for Marner is a really good deal.
Same can be applied to AM or WN or even Reilly.
Anyhow, Marner is a Leafs, let’s just hope he performs to his potential next season.

 

[Gabriel426]

Some can’t separate one from the other.
It’s unanimous he’s overpaid, nothing really to discuss there.

This is our modern culture, you either all in or all out, nothing in between.

 

[egd27]

Some can’t separate one from the other.
It’s unanimous he’s overpaid, nothing really to discuss there.

Yea, quite a bit of all or nothing thinking happens these days.

 

[Stephen]

Show me one reputable contract model that references a stanley cup variable as part of its comparable assessments. One single reference that says a player gets less because they havent won a stanley cup.

First of all, I made a stylistic comparison between Marner and Kane, which another poster then added the age variable as if to indicate Marner is on a higher career trajectory than Patrick Kane - which is the only reason why the Stanley Cup win was was brought up. Because let's face it, any Leaf fan would prefer that Marner helped us win a cup than score a bunch of points.

Second of all, at no point in time in this thread have I talked about Kane's post ELC contract, but "reputable contract model" doesn't exist in the game, full stop, so the idea that a Stanley Cup would factor in or not is really a case by case issue. And for the record, Patrick Kane signed his second contract before he won the cup, so you wouldn't see that as a line item even if such a thing exists as a "model." Whatever that means.

You talk about linking a players ability to a teams success and disregard Marners metrics because you feel like it.
You are making this stuff up as you go. There is no attribution to stanley cup success as a determinor of contract in practice in the nhl. There are a dozen of variables that point to Marner's ability as a player. Saying that just because the stats points to the fact that he plays well, it still doesn't prove he is linked to Toronto's success, is pure sophism.

You might be arguing with yourself here. My comparison between Kane and Marner is 1) style of play and 2) Marner isn't on a higher career trajectory because Patrick Kane actually won a cup on his ELC, whereas Marner just scored points. You'll notice I never said anything about comparing the two contracts, cap hits, cap percentages, term length or anything.

 

[Dekes For Days]

2) Marner isn't on a higher career trajectory because Patrick Kane actually won a cup on his ELC, whereas Marner just scored points.

Cup wins have nothing to do with the career trajectories of individual players...

 

[Trapper]

What is it with people who have to consistently prove that their individual player is as good or better than player x on another team?

It’s team that matters.
At the end of the day it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference if your star is a 40+ goal scorer and the star on the better team (works harder, better defensively, better balance, better gelling core) is a 30 goal scorer.

You have to go through 4 rounds of playoff grind to win. In the playoffs things are going to change.

 

[Stephen]

Cup wins have nothing to do with the career trajectories of individual players...

It does if you're the first overall franchise player that took your team there and then followed up with a Hall of Fame career. But yes, "point pace."

 

[Gabriel426]

What is it with people who have to consistently prove that their individual player is as good or better than player x on another team?

It’s team that matters.
At the end of the day it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference if your star is a 40+ goal scorer and the star on the better team (works harder, better defensively, better balance, better gelling core) is a 30 goal scorer.

You have to go through 4 rounds of playoff grind to win. In the playoffs things are going to change.

Yep, for all the talks about wanting the players to play for the logo, a lot of fans tend to just want the players to score 100 pts and be happy with that.