All Purpose Mitch Marner Talk

[Antropovsky]

Im reserving judgement on Marner until i see him play without elite nhl snipers. His centers have been top 5 goal scorers for the past two seasons. Before that...his linemates were JVR, Bozak and Kadri (still damn good goal scorers but lesser than Matthews and Tavares), however he was a 60 point player, while Matthews was already a point per game player at that time. Marner gets Tavares and his assists jump by 18 points and goals marginally go up (for one season)... did Marner improve or was he given a superstar linemate that improved Marners stats?

Im not convinced Marners skills translate to a point per game player if he is on a team with lesser skilled players. Hall had 93 points when the next best forward had 54....rookie hischier. What are Marners totals if he was in Halls place. Cant tell ya... because he has never been put in a place to carry his own line, he always has had significant support. Yet he is paid as if he is a top 5 skilled player in the league. We know Eichel can produce without elite linemates, we know Matthews can, Mcdavid, Panarin, Tavares, Mackinnon all can. All these players routinely hover around 30 more goals per year too or more. They are capable passers, goal scorers and skaters and have good size. which make them more dangerous. Sure it is unfair to say he couldnt because he never has had to... but i think it is outrageous to make him a top paid player without making him carry a line by himself. I really question if his skillset would translate...once opposing players tighten up on him instead of his superstar linemates... or when he is routinely getting the toughest matchups... or if he being a pass first guy with an average shot doesnt have a top 5 nhl finisher. So far he has struggled in the playoffs when things have tightened around him.... just dont know - small, weak shot, not explosive in any way weak on his skates. So were basically banking on a small winger version of Joe Thornton? Or is Johnny Gaudreau a better comparison?he certainly is not comparable to Kane...who is much more polished in every offensive category. Regardless hes too unproven in my opinion to be paid $500 000 less than Matthews.

Just very unfortunate that Dubas paid him like a superstar. Especially with all the added leverage that Toronto offers like... great city, additional promotion of your personal brand, huge bonuses in contracts, willingness to include NMC, and highly skilled teammates.

Hoping Marner proves me wrong.

 

[ULF_55]

Your post has team in the first part and individual in the 2nd.

That’s the problem.

As individuals, I don’t have a problem with any personally, people will throw out stats all day long to explain their greatness. Skill isn’t in debate.

It’s as a collection Matthews/JT/Nylander/Marner/Rielly where I don’t think they have the right stuff (sum of the parts). Lack of diversity, playoff grind, intensity, 2-way, engaged, whatever etc. To date they haven’t shown they are more than what they seem.

I agree with this.

If Dubas doesn't bring in some characters who hate to lose, wait until next year.

 

[Craig Button]

there are two types of fans.
1st type.
Normal people
2nd type.
The whiners that complained when Clark got traded.
The whiners that chanted "We want Clark" during games.
The whiners that complained that we paid too much to get Clark back.
The whiners that wanted Pat Burns fired.
The whiners that complained that Pat Burns got fired
The whiners that wanted Doug Gilmour to be traded.
The whiners that hated Sundin as Captain.
The whiners that hated Sundin when he refused the trade.
The whiners who are still mad that Sundin refused the trade.
The whiners......
you get the point.

don't be a number 2

 

[Craig Button]

Tavares is the most over paid Leaf. His skating is declining each year as well which will make his contract worse. Tavares is not a 6.5 million upgrade on Kadri. Big mistake by Dubas.

Marner, imo maybe 10 guys in the NHL with his deception, vision , anticipation skills. Very smart player, needs to compete harder at times. The PP runs thru him, he is kind of the life line of the team and its emotion now, he Pk's, Marner is overall reliable. Nylander is a question mark every night despite what the stats say.

that's a pretty dull-witted take.

Kadri's contract was signed on April 13, 2016 and as an RFA.
Kadri was a 40-50 point player and still is pretty much.

Tavares signed his contract on April July 1st, 2018 as the #1 UFA signing.
JT was an 80 point player and pretty much still is.

 

[Orfieus]

I wanted him traded the moment the Leafs announced the contract. More can be done with the cap room and assets Marner would fetch

Don't forget there is a count down, in a few years there will be a full NTC that will take effect

 

[moon111]

there are two types of fans.
1st type.
Normal people
2nd type.
The whiners that complained when Clark got traded.
The whiners that chanted "We want Clark" during games.
The whiners that complained that we paid too much to get Clark back.
The whiners that wanted Pat Burns fired.
The whiners that complained that Pat Burns got fired
The whiners that wanted Doug Gilmour to be traded.
The whiners that hated Sundin as Captain.
The whiners that hated Sundin when he refused the trade.
The whiners who are still mad that Sundin refused the trade.
The whiners......
you get the point.

don't be a number 2

There's a lot of 'whining' that goes one here. But to me, it sounds like what you're saying is just drink the kool-aid and don't try to evaluate any decision.

The Leafs traded Clark. - to this day we ask ourselves why Toronto is a country club? Why don't players fight tooth and nail for this team? Why are players so selfish during contract negotiations? Toronto historically is a use and abuse team and nothing underlined this more then this trade. You're only going to get players to give when you're also giving back. Dubas has been criticized quite heavily, but he's been slowly rebuilding respect to the way this organization operates. Everyone knows it's professional sports, but there are certain things you just don't do to 'family'. Was Sundin a great player in the mold of Nylander? Yes. But what were the options at that time? In `96 St.Louis gave up Craig Johnson, Patrice Tardif, and Roman Vopat... for Wayne Gretzky who refused to sign for $5 million a season. I'll always believe a better solution could of been found. Just the $ alone could of made something happen without losing Clark.

I don't believe in trading Mitch Marner, but like to hear opinions. I'll play devil's advocate just to squeeze out different viewpoints. I'm also amazed how many fans will see someone like Marner cut out risky plays that backfire and then get upset he's not generating as much offense. The Leaf's core is fine, but you need a full team to compete. Not only does adding the right players help that position, but can push down someone else who'll be much more suited to a lessor role.

 

[DarkKnight]

Only in this town is it the fault of the RFA that the GM couldn’t control salaries. I’m a terrible poker player so it’s your fault you have the chips. What a world.

 

[TML1967]

Marner, 15 and 2021 second for 3, 5 and White.
Leafs save $6.143m against the cap.
White is a decent top 6 winger who is still young. With a decent top 6 cohort he is probably a 55-60 point guy.

With 3 you take Stutzle or Byfield.
At 5 you take Drysdale.

Stutzle/Byfield (3 year ELC) + Drysdale (3 year ELC) + White (4.75x5 left)
for
Marner (10.893x5 left) + Schneider +2021 55-60th pick

 

[Lightsol]

Marner, 15 and 2021 second for 3, 5 and White.
Leafs save $6.143m against the cap.
White is a decent top 6 winger who is still young. With a decent top 6 cohort he is probably a 55-60 point guy.

With 3 you take Stutzle or Byfield.
At 5 you take Drysdale.

Stutzle/Byfield (3 year ELC) + Drysdale (3 year ELC) + White (4.75x5 left)
for
Marner (10.893x5 left) + Schneider +2021 55-60th pick

Hey, who wants to spend the next decade watching Mitch Marner kill us?

 

[TML1967]

Hey, who wants to spend the next decade watching Mitch Marner kill us?

First 3 years, its 6.7m combined for all three players. So essentially, you save (if all 3 are in the lineup) 3.3m for 3 more seasons.
I would 100% take the next 3 years with a ELC Stutzle/Byfield in the top 6, Drysdale as a top 4 D, White on the 2/3W spot, and a 3.3m addition on the back end over Marner and Schneider.

It would extend our window, help balance the front and back end contract situation, and give us extra room now to add 2 good RHD UFAs.

 

[Racer88]

In my opinion the only way Marner will win back the support of the fans is when he performs in the playoffs. His raze dazzle is great when the games are easy but when the other teams buckle down and the games get tougher his impact is diminished.
He needs to grow up and put the team ahead of his own needs

 

[Racer88]

Hey, who wants to spend the next decade watching Mitch Marner kill us?

This is a horrifying thought but some players never seem to get it until they are traded at least once.

 

[kk87]

2017 vs WSH: not dominant, but played really well for a 19 year old rookie
2018 vs BOS: best player on the team all series, hands down
2019 vs BOS: dominant through the first 3 games, not great in the last four
2020 vs CBJ: mediocre series; a couple good games, but pretty invisible for the most part

The narrative that he disappears in the playoffs is pretty misguided in my opinion. He hasn't been great in elimination games, but he's still only played in a handful of them at this level. He's shown that he can bring his A-game when the playoffs come around - even against "tough" teams like Boston; and he's been close to a 100 pt player for the past two seasons. The skepticism around this guy in this fan base, and the burning desire to see him traded, is insane. Sure, the contract doesn't look good, but he's still one of the premier young wingers in the league. Let's be serious

 

[Dekes For Days]

Kane's game to me is defined by one thing, and that is ultimate control. The way he handles the puck, paces himself, dances on edge work, creates little gaps and separation, passes, shoots, etc. There's a level of precision and explosiveness to hims game.

That's Kane at his best, and that is basically an exact description of age 21 Marner, which is very unlikely to be his best.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

2017 vs WSH: not dominant, but played really well for a 19 year old rookie
2018 vs BOS: best player on the team all series, hands down
2019 vs BOS: dominant through the first 3 games, not great in the last four
2020 vs CBJ: mediocre series; a couple good games, but pretty invisible for the most part

The narrative that he disappears in the playoffs is pretty misguided in my opinion. He hasn't been great in elimination games, but he's still only played in a handful of them at this level. He's shown that he can bring his A-game when the playoffs come around - even against "tough" teams like Boston; and he's been close to a 100 pt player for the past two seasons. The skepticism around this guy in this fan base, and the burning desire to see him traded, is insane. Sure, the contract doesn't look good, but he's still one of the premier young wingers in the league. Let's be serious

Laid out like this I don't like the trend over the last three seasons at all for him in the playoffs. Dominant all series to dominant for roughly half of one to not being much of a factor at all in his most recent one. He needs to return to the dominant form he once had in the playoffs. Can't be all on Matthews and Tavares.

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

Laid out like this I don't like the trend over the last three seasons at all for him in the playoffs. Dominant all series to dominant for roughly half of one to not being much of a factor at all in his most recent one. He needs to return to the dominant form he once had in the playoffs. Can't be all on Matthews and Tavares.

Neither of those two command our pk or pp

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

Mitchy can't do everything for the team.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Nylander performed poorly following signing his contract and had a career year this season.

Hopefully Mitch can do the same. Too early to give up on him, certainly has the ability to live up to the contract.

 

[kb]

Mitchy can't do everything for the team.

Who pays $11 million for a winger whose point totals has been in the 60's in 3 of his 4 seasons? Again, for those who need constant reminding.

Marner: 300 Games, 83 Goals, 291 Points
Matthews: 282 Games, 158 Goals, 285 Points.

It's not particularly close.

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

Who pays $11 million for a winger whose point totals has been in the 60's in 3 of his 4 seasons? Again, for those who need constant reminding.

Marner: 300 Games, 83 Goals, 291 Points
Matthews: 282 Games, 158 Goals, 285 Points.

It's not particularly close.

So a guy, who out produces, leads both pp and pk, who's utilized the most end-game and makes less longer is the weaker link?

 

[kb]

So a guy, who out produces, leads both pk and pk, who's utilized the most end-game and makes less longer is the weaker link?

He doesn't outproduce. Reading is a skill. He sucks on the PK. And Matthews is out end game.
Matthews is by FAR the better player. Ignoring reality doesn't make you right.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Only in this town is it the fault of the RFA that the GM couldn’t control salaries. I’m a terrible poker player so it’s your fault you have the chips. What a world.

That's why I respect Stevie Y...when he had that problem down in Tampa with Drouin...everyone was saying he was going to get fleeced on the deal because he HAD to trade him after he walked off the team...no...he did the fleecing actually when he got Sergachev by setting a firm price and not budging..same with Sakic...he got a haul for Duchene.

So if it took Duby letting Marner sit...or Nylander before him..he would have put his stake in the ground and let the Ferris' of the world know he couldn't be pushed around. He did not...and here we are with a player that is making almost 2x as much as Brayden Point a guy who won the stanley cup and was instrumental in doing it btw....

You can't be everyones friend Duby. Everybody has a friend ...with the"cool Dad or Mom" that they end up feeling sorry for later in life because they took the easy way to adulthood. Don't be that guy over paying for someone who should be giving us a discount to be here in his hometown.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

In my opinion the only way Marner will win back the support of the fans is when he performs in the playoffs. His raze dazzle is great when the games are easy but when the other teams buckle down and the games get tougher his impact is diminished.
He needs to grow up and put the team ahead of his own needs

He might be like Johnny Hockey in Calgary...not built for the playoffs. He might try hard...but he is limited by his size when the whistles go away.

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

Thi

He might be like Johnny Hockey in Calgary...not built for the playoffs. He might try hard...but he is limited by his size when the whistles go away.

This kid has excelled his entire life being under pressure.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Thi

This kid has excelled his entire life being under pressure.

So you consider what he has done the last 2 playoffs as excelling under pressure?..ok then..