All Purpose Coronavirus Discussion III - Bald Is Beautiful

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Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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Right, so where were all the safety measures and lockdowns? 610k dead, but no one made a big deal about it.

Obviously less of the population infected

Let me know when the flu has a long asymptomatic transmission period and is overwhelming medical systems and generating more corpses than can be dealt with, then maybe we can consider treating them as directly comparable.

We had a safety measure. We created a vaccine for that virus, and lots of people pushed advertising offering it for free while agencies like FEMA, DHS, and CDC maintained a public campaign pushing for people to wash their hands, stay home if sick, and get vaccinated.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Right, so where were all the safety measures and lockdowns? 610k dead, but no one made a big deal about it.

Obviously less of the population infected

61K, missed a decimal point. It's a pain posting in this "new and improved," "incredible" board.
Note .013 is far less than .06 to .08 mortality rate by a factor of five.
And 15% of the population is far less than would be infected by COVID if allowed to spread unabated.

If the dead double every two days, it'll only take two weeks to match the worst flu season in memory.
Every three days, less than three weeks.
Every four days, less than a month.
Exponential growth is a bitch.
 
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Cody Webster

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
25,243
23,361
I'm tapping out. Just so you all know, I believe this is an issue and I'm definitely worried about it. I've left my house once in the past week and a half and that was yesterday to make a quick trip to the store and grab a pizza.

Gonna take a rip here, throw some leftover pizza in the oven and get settled in for an evening of The Show. Gotta get Ripper Magoo out of Altoona.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Again, and this is a vitally important bit of information that you are insisting on ignoring. You are choosing to be ignorant: This is completely different from the flu. The things aren't comparable. If you have to make incompatible comparisons to support a position (that happens to run contrary to all the leading experts who are in general consensus), then that position is bad.

In addition, the flu IS a big deal every year. Just because you've ignored or failed to notice all the annual pushes to mitigate it doesn't mean those things don't exist.

Governor Cuomo is wrong.


Why are you afraid of my question? How much is a human life worth? You need to establish that if we want to talk about the value of these measures relative to impact.
I am aware it's different than the flu and have never said it's the same.

I said the death rates are looking pretty similar. I grant that COVID's is most likely higher, but nothing near like original projections, and not a massive, completely world-changing difference apart.

We've proceeded for God knows how many years not locking down the entire world for one death rate, yet now acting like everyone who doesn't want to quarantine EVERYONE for a probably slightly elevated death rate is a MONSTER.

I've never read one post from you before this year advocating social distancing and a nearly COMPLETE QUARANTINE because of the flu. Does that mean you don't value human life? Or you just understood, before this hysteria, that some people getting sick and dying is just a part of life?

I can't put a specific value on human life. It's a fluid question. Everything is shades of gray. Do you think Jeff Dahmer's life has the same value as Albert Einstein's? Do you think a 90 year old with diabetes and cancer in a nursing home has the same value as a new college graduate? Should your income be the same as somebody who dropped out of school in high school, contributes no value to society, stays unemployed, and does nothing but smoke pot all day?

So, yeah, I can't put a blanket value on human life. There isn't one. Everything is a case-by-case basis. Doesn't mean I don't value life any differently than you not quarantining during every flu season means you don't value human life.

So, for the third time I'll ask, since you've completely avoided even referring to my previous two queries:

Do you support the Nevada governor's decision to ban prescriptions of decades-known anti-malaria medications, with multiple promising studies, to those with COVID?
 

Cody Webster

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
25,243
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Let me know when the flu has a long asymptomatic transmission period and is overwhelming medical systems and generating more corpses than can be dealt with, then maybe we can consider treating them as directly comparable.

We had a safety measure. We created a vaccine for that virus, and lots of people pushed advertising offering it for free while agencies like FEMA, DHS, and CDC maintained a public campaign pushing for people to wash their hands, stay home if sick, and get vaccinated.
Love all your quick rebuttals. Amazing work :)
 
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Chinatown88

Daniels QB3
Jan 17, 2012
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Well.......Beef Invictus is a great post-apocalyptic cannibal warlord name.

hahahah_im_a_cannibal.gif


The nobility of the human spirit doesn’t have jack on a good sausage.



The reading comprehension in this post tells me those books are poop and fire GONERS, Toe. Just please start with Dan Brown and Virginia Woolf.

Jane Eyre! That needs to go. Wuthering Heights too.
 
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Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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I am aware it's different than the flu and have never said it's the same.

I said the death rates are looking pretty similar. I grant that COVID's is most likely higher, but nothing near like original projections, and not a massive, completely world-changing difference apart.

We've proceeded for God knows how many years not locking down the entire world for one death rate, yet now acting like everyone who doesn't want to quarantine EVERYONE for a probably slightly elevated death rate is a MONSTER.

I've never read one post from you before this year advocating social distancing and a nearly COMPLETE QUARANTINE because of the flu. Does that mean you don't value human life? Or you just understood, before this hysteria, that some people getting sick and dying is just a part of life?

I can't put a specific value on human life. It's a fluid question. Everything is shades of gray. Do you think Jeff Dahmer's life has the same value as Albert Einstein's? Do you think a 90 year old with diabetes and cancer in a nursing home has the same value as a new college graduate? Should your income be the same as somebody who dropped out of school in high school, contributes no value to society, stays unemployed, and does nothing but smoke pot all day?

So, yeah, I can't put a blanket value on human life. There isn't one. Everything is a case-by-case basis. Doesn't mean I don't value life any differently than you not quarantining during every flu season means you don't value human life.

So, for the third time I'll ask, since you've completely avoided even referring to my previous two queries:

Do you support the Nevada governor's decision to ban prescriptions of decades-known anti-malaria medications, with multiple promising studies, to those with COVID?

If we had a flu strain that impacted our medical system as severely as this, that killed people so quickly we couldn't handle the bodies, we would be in lockdown for that. The flu doesn't work that way. That's the difference. If we have a flu strain that has this impact, I would sure as shit advocate quarantine. But, we haven't had anything like that since 1919. Your position requires that you ignore huge aspects of this situation to prop of a terrible comparison.

I don't know what information the Nevada governor is using. I don't know if he's doing it to secure and regulate the supply. If it's harmful, then I don't afree with him.

If you cannot put a value on human life then you should stop complaining about the economic impact, because clearly you haven't put enough thought into the real costs in terms of permanently lost economic activity vs short term costs while in lockdown. If you want to talk economics, lets' start dealing with some numbers here.
 
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DancingPanther

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Jun 19, 2018
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Wash hands
Bleach wipe to the phone, badge, glasses, and hands
Clock out
Change out of scrubs
Walk to parking garage, wash hands again in bathroom near there
Open rest of doors with paper towel in hand
Hand sanitizer in car
Get home: shoes off at the door, clothes in the wash, shower
Alcohol swab to phone and glasses

There are 40 people in the hospital who have tests pended or positive.

"But the flu...."
 

Magua

Entirely Palatable Product
Apr 25, 2016
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Are you telling me you’d be reading during an apocalypse?

After the fire and brimstone part is over, sure, why not? Day to day survival can actually be pretty boring. Definitely time to crank out a chapter or two a day while gathering supplies and hiding from mutants.

Civilization needs to rebuild, and literature is the gateway to civilization. Did you see anybody reading in Mad Max? I don’t think so. But that’s mostly because you probably have never seen those movies. However, I can assure you: no reading, Immortan Toe.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
So, yeah, I can't put a blanket value on human life. There isn't one. Everything is a case-by-case basis. Doesn't mean I don't value life any differently than you not quarantining during every flu season means you don't value human life.

Do you support the Nevada governor's decision to ban prescriptions of decades-known anti-malaria medications, with multiple promising studies, to those with COVID?

I can, since I've done cost-benefit analysis and have everything written by Kip Viscusi, the leading economic expert on the value of life.
W. Kip Viscusi | Faculty | Law School | Vanderbilt University

There's no "right" way to do this, but the purpose is to provide just the kind of analysis that informs when the cost of saving a life is an order of magnitude above or below any reasonable estimate of a value of life - because environmental (and other risk analysis) regulation requires determining how much harm is acceptable - if you try to eliminate all risk you shut down the economy so you have to draw a line at some point. There's a huge literature addressing this issue.

One reason we accept the flu is we are already spending billions each year to combat it, think vaccinating 100 million people is a "freebie?" And because flues mutate on a regular basis, there's no "magic bullet" right now, though researchers are working on a universal vaccine - and because there are varieties of flues, it's almost impossible to stop it from spreading. The cost benefit is to spend up to the point where we mitigate the potential damage to some extent but accept that additional spending would only have a minimal impact.

"Multiple promising studies" is not the same as a definitive study(s) that would justify moving these drugs from their current use (which obviously has some value or it wouldn't be produced and sold, it's not ibuprofen). For one thing, sometimes using a treatment that's untested could turn out to make things worse, extrapolating from a SSS to a large population should be done carefully.
 
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Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
128,072
165,971
Armored Train
Wash hands
Bleach wipe to the phone, badge, glasses, and hands
Clock out
Change out of scrubs
Walk to parking garage, wash hands again in bathroom near there
Open rest of doors with paper towel in hand
Hand sanitizer in car
Get home: shoes off at the door, clothes in the wash, shower
Alcohol swab to phone and glasses

There are 40 people in the hospital who have tests pended or positive.

"But the flu...."


This happens to you every flu season right? This is all totally normal and comparable? Business as usual?
 
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Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
128,072
165,971
Armored Train
I can, since I've done cost-benefit analysis and have everything written by Kip Viscusi, the leading economic expert on the value of life.
W. Kip Viscusi | Faculty | Law School | Vanderbilt University

There's no "right" way to do this, but the purpose is to provide just the kind of analysis that informs when the cost of saving a life is an order of magnitude above or below any reasonable estimate of a value of life - because environmental (and other risk analysis) regulation requires determining how much harm is acceptable - if you try to eliminate all risk you shut down the economy so you have to draw a line at some point. There's a huge literature addressing this issue.

One reason we accept the flu is we are already spending billions each year to combat it, think vaccinating 100 million people is a "freebie?" And because flues mutate on a regular basis, there's no "magic bullet" right now, though researchers are working on a universal vaccine - and because there are varieties of flues, it's almost impossible to stop it from spreading. The cost benefit is to spend up to the point where we mitigate the potential damage to some extent but accept that additional spending would only have a minimal impact.

"Multiple promising studies" is not the same as a definitive study(s) that would justify moving these drugs from their current use (which obviously has some value or it wouldn't be produced and sold, it's not ibuprofen). For one thing, sometimes using a treatment that's untested could turn out to make things worse, extrapolating from a SSS to a large population should be done carefully.

Yeah. If he's doing this while allowing studies to proceed and waiting for confirmation that it's both effective and safe, that's one thing. That would be considered responsible, even.

If he's being a weird draconian slapping a ban on for no logical reason that's not very responsible.
 

DancingPanther

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Jun 19, 2018
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This happens to you every flu season right? This is all totally normal and comparable? Business as usual?
Yup, every year for 3 months we have to turn 2 wings in the hospital into isolation wings and move our ICU into PACU for all the intubated FLU-19 positive or pending patients. Usually about 100 flu patients in the hospital every day in the winter. It's basically the flu
 
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Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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The massive failings that were displayed in the leadup and response to Hurricane Maria are on display at a national level now, not some island most American's couldn't point out on a map. They learned nothing from that. Improved in no way.

The best disaster response is all about good preparation. There was absolutely none. The opposite, in fact, as they were in denial about what was coming.

Absolutely no preparation?

The United States was ranked the best-prepared country in the world to handle a pandemic in late 2019 by the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) and the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security (JHCHS). That's 1st out of 195 ranked countries. Just a few months ago.

Pretty much every mainstream news outlet in January labeled the Coronavirus no big deal.

The US shut down travel from China on Jan. 30.

Biden, at the time, responded by slamming the decision as "xenophobic." Many others joined in.

Now those same people, including Biden, are blasting the country's response. And acting like Biden would've handled it better. Well, no, he's on record as would've made it worse. And so are so many media entities that changed their tune.
 
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Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
128,072
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Armored Train
Absolutely no preparation?

The United States was ranked the best-prepared country in the world to handle a pandemic in late 2019 by the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) and the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security (JHCHS). That's 1st out of 195 ranked countries. Just a few months ago.

Pretty much every mainstream news outlet in January labeled the Coronavirus no big deal.

The US shut down travel from China on Jan. 30.

Biden, at the time, responded by slamming the decision as "xenophobic." Many others joined in.

Now those same people, including Biden, are blasting the country's response. And acting like Biden would've handled it better. Well, no, he's on record as would've made it worse. And so are so many media entities that changed their tune.

Being prepared to handle a pandemic is only relevant if you actually utilize that preparation. This administration has refused to use the resources available to them.

We also happen to be the best prepared to handle a hurricane, but they botched the Maria response through incompetence and unwillingness to use their resources. There's quite a consistency there; crippling indecision leading up to major emergencies, then continuing after they've occurred. We've seen it play out once, it's happening all over again.

I disagreed with Biden. Who gives a shit? The lack of hard quarantine dating back well in advance for people coming from China (and abroad, in general) was a major error. By the time they closed the borders it was too late, which I pointed out at the time. Also, if they don't want to be painted as xenophobes, a good way to avoid that is to not be thoroughly xenophobic for years. Or hold press conferences where the Secretary of State whines about foreigners for significantly longer than he discusses actions taken by his department, which goes a long way towards casting doubt on the motivations of those involved.
 

Magua

Entirely Palatable Product
Apr 25, 2016
37,564
155,734
Huron of the Lakes
Wash hands
Bleach wipe to the phone, badge, glasses, and hands
Clock out
Change out of scrubs
Walk to parking garage, wash hands again in bathroom near there
Open rest of doors with paper towel in hand
Hand sanitizer in car
Get home: shoes off at the door, clothes in the wash, shower
Alcohol swab to phone and glasses

There are 40 people in the hospital who have tests pended or positive.

"But the flu...."

I follow the same routine when I exit The Coffin.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,619
16,426
I can, since I've done cost-benefit analysis and have everything written by Kip Viscusi, the leading economic expert on the value of life.
W. Kip Viscusi | Faculty | Law School | Vanderbilt University

There's no "right" way to do this, but the purpose is to provide just the kind of analysis that informs when the cost of saving a life is an order of magnitude above or below any reasonable estimate of a value of life - because environmental (and other risk analysis) regulation requires determining how much harm is acceptable - if you try to eliminate all risk you shut down the economy so you have to draw a line at some point. There's a huge literature addressing this issue.

One reason we accept the flu is we are already spending billions each year to combat it, think vaccinating 100 million people is a "freebie?" And because flues mutate on a regular basis, there's no "magic bullet" right now, though researchers are working on a universal vaccine - and because there are varieties of flues, it's almost impossible to stop it from spreading. The cost benefit is to spend up to the point where we mitigate the potential damage to some extent but accept that additional spending would only have a minimal impact.

"Multiple promising studies" is not the same as a definitive study(s) that would justify moving these drugs from their current use (which obviously has some value or it wouldn't be produced and sold, it's not ibuprofen). For one thing, sometimes using a treatment that's untested could turn out to make things worse, extrapolating from a SSS to a large population should be done carefully.
Not buying it. If this were really all about protecting human lives at all-costs, the majority of which are on their last legs, anyway, you and @Beef Invictus would be APPALLED at a governor BANNING the prescription of anti-malaria drugs that have been around for 70 years that might save lives.

If you were diagnosed with this virus, first thing you'd be doing is trying to get these anti-malaria drugs.

And that's really how you know this is all a fraud. Not that the virus doesn't exist and isn't a major health problem, but that it's being used as a political tool. You don't like the president, you're willing to defend blocking 70 year old existing medicines that might save an infected person who chances are is about 80. If it were you, I don't think you'd sing the same tune. And it sure isn't a position that is oh so congruent with doing everything to protect the value of human life.
 
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