All Purpose Coronavirus Discussion III - Bald Is Beautiful

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Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,619
16,426
Experimental use of drugs is done under controlled conditions so you can determine efficacy and potential side effects before you clear it for widespread use - you don't just approve it then let anecdotal evidence become a marketing campaign with no verification. And what we've seen is people who need the drug for its actual purpose can't obtain it b/c so many snatched up on a speculative basis.

The only political use is by the WH, who first denied it, failed to take preparatory steps (while South Korea, due to being close to China and experience with MERS and SARS) had already ramped up in January, then after the evidence that a pandemic had begun, reversed course and tried to act as if two months of denial never occurred, but still has failed to take decisive action.

By the time travel from China was banned, it was already far too late, the virus had spread globally, we just didn't know it - which is not surprising, when China basically buried the problem for a month, by the time the world was informed, due to business and tourist travel, infected individuals had already traveled to numerous countries. Which is why you can't depend on those kinds of bans, they're symbolic but not very valuable in an interconnected world. You have to have the capacity in place to test, isolate and treat - and that has to be stockpiled and developed well ahead of time.

I'm listening to the POTUS declare "who could have known" today, despite a War Game by his own executive branch last year which resulted in a report listing numerous issues to be addressed - and the report was quietly buried, probably because of an ideology that says no government is the best government. If you don't believe the role of government is to address these kinds of problems, then there is no need for preparation, other than building coffins.
I'm curious. On January 30, when it happened, did you support the travel ban to/from China?
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
It was botched. There was no advance preparation. This was no executive leadership. Here are the facts.

Normal states do not require much Federal oversight to prepare for a major hurricane. By and large, most coordination is carried out state to state and since the late 90s and especially after 9/11, there are mechanisms in place to specifically ease interstate cooperation. Puerto Rico, because it is an island, can't do that. Response necessarily leans on Federal support in a way that a normal hurricane doesn't. Supply and personnel transport can't run on roads. You need to organize that through the DoD; that's outside of DHS. No preparation was being carried out.

Using my own experience I was able to identify several needs. One was that the military would need to set up a supply line. Another was that since the population would be slammed, local transport would be rendered ineffective, so the military would need to provide transport for goods. I called that a hospital ship would be needed as well as the mobilization of Army medical units, and additionally, various surface vessels should be prepared to serve as localized power generators. Naval/Merchant Marine coordination of ports would be a necessity. These were all easily identifiable requirements that can be determined by anybody with an ounce of competence in disaster response. These were all things that needed to be mobilized in advance of the hurricane hitting, especially because we had ample warning that an apocalyptic storm was going to plow through US territories. Not a single one of those things occurred.

An old friend of mine is a captain in the Army. He runs a medical unit. We were talking a week in advance. I asked him if they were getting ready to go to USVI or PR. He said nope. They hadn't gotten word, and he found that bizarre because in the past they had always begun preparations to deploy as part of offered foreign aid when hurricanes go through that area. They were going through with a two week field exercise instead; I was stunned, they even prepare for potential stateside deployment for smaller storms. The hurricane came through, and it wasn't until a couple days after the easily predicted impact occurred, that they were called out of their exercise to scramble down to Georgia for shipment to USVI. The USNS Comfort, I believe didn't begin preparations to ship out until well after the storm. It takes 5 f***ing days for that ship to deploy, so it didn't arrive until a week later. There was ample time to prepare that ship for deployment (as had been common practice in the past with remotely competent administrations) so that it could head out the moment the way was clear.

There was no preparation for supply. It had to be scrambled together after the fact. The corruption you cite, which is completely and totally unrelated to the abysmal failure that was the Federal response? That is mitigated if there is any kind of a real FEMA deployment rather than the half-assed, barebones contingent they sent. That corruption also didn't occur in USVI, and yet the Federal response there was just as mangled, it just didn't get the same coverage.

Days were wasted and people died because of the idiotic and incompetent lack of preparation for a disaster we saw coming from a mile away. There was an unnecessarily large gap in adequate medical response because it was all mobilized days after the storm instead of before, as has always been done.

The same response "methodology" in play then is in play again. Established plans weren't used. Flat out ignored, even. It was indescribably frustrating to watch unfold in advance, and infuriating after as the toll became clear. The people at DHS I know who specifically helped write response manuals for that exact f***ing scenario were ranting in a rage down in Southeast as they watched all the badly needed measures they'd identified long ago get ignored.

How many electoral votes do they have?
Noticed aid got to Houston pretty quickly.
 
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prototypical4thliner

Registered User
Jan 12, 2017
4,004
5,992
Hitting up Levante tomorrow for some takeout for virtual happy hour (yeah, my SVP made this a thing). I'll report back on the strawberry beer. Not my style, but f*** it. Research, right?
Grab me two sixtels please. Seriously, I can’t get anything from tired hands but levante has kegs to give up?!? I think the difference is negligible even if I give the edge to tired hands.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
I'm curious. On January 30, when it happened, did you support the travel ban to/from China?

Didn't even notice, by then the virus was already worldwide.

Vancouver has numerous ties with China, so do Silicon Valley firms, and numerous American companies have executives and managers flying back and forth (supply chain management). Lots of Chinese tourists go to Disneyland, etc. And lots of Chinese students in American universities.

So by January 30, it was about a month too late, and it would have required quarantining everyone who flew in from China, including Americans, for at least two weeks.

Did you notice the lines in the airports when they brought Americans back from Europe, great social distancing, no thermal thermometers to identify those with fever and separating them, etc. As usual, great preparation.
 

Cody Webster

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
25,174
23,276
Hitting up Levante tomorrow for some takeout for virtual happy hour (yeah, my SVP made this a thing). I'll report back on the strawberry beer. Not my style, but f*** it. Research, right?
The flavors in those is never really overpowering

Have you ever had the strawberry milkshake IPA from TH? Have they come down on their prices yet? Those milkshakes used to be like $26 for a 4 pack
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,619
16,426
Didn't even notice, by then the virus was already worldwide.

Vancouver has numerous ties with China, so do Silicon Valley firms, and numerous American companies have executives and managers flying back and forth (supply chain management). Lots of Chinese tourists go to Disneyland, etc. And lots of Chinese students in American universities.

So by January 30, it was about a month too late, and it would have required quarantining everyone who flew in from China, including Americans, for at least two weeks.

Did you notice the lines in the airports when they brought Americans back from Europe, great social distancing, no thermal thermometers to identify those with fever and separating them, etc. As usual, great preparation.

I sincerely doubt you were pushing for a travel shutdown before Jan. 30. My guess is you supported Biden's complaint afterward that it was "xenophobic."

Throughout February, most media was saying COVID was no big deal.

In early March, Gov. DeBlasio was encouraging everyone to visit public events.

Methinks you're having quite a case of revisionist history in an effort to criticize a leader you don't like, like many people.
 

flyershockey

Registered User
Oct 10, 2006
13,463
6,561
The flavors in those is never really overpowering

Have you ever had the strawberry milkshake IPA from TH? Have they come down on their prices yet? Those milkshakes used to be like $26 for a 4 pack
I tend to stay away from the lactose IPA's. The sugar gives me hangovers from hell.
 
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Lord Defect

Secretary of Blowtorching
Nov 13, 2013
18,753
34,755
My assumptions are pretty straight forward, the infection rate for the flu is generally known, but that's with both vaccination and herd immunity - without those two, a highly infectious virus will cover the majority of the population in a few months if no measures are taken to reduce the rate of infection, especially when many are asymptomatic while infectious.

As far as death rates, again, we have data on the flu, and it seems to vary between .06% and 0.13%, depending on the strain.
We won't know what the mortality rate for COVID is until we have widespread testing, but the initial estimates of 3% seemed way too high (denominator was too small), but there's still a lot of uncertainty.

Lot of different estimates for Infected Mortality Rates (IFR):
[note the Italian deaths seem to be overstated, they assume everyone who died with COVID were killed by COVID]

Neil Ferguson’s team at Imperial College, London, Their Infection Fatality Rate estimates were based on from Verity et al. and adjusted to account for a non-uniform attack rate giving an overall IFR of 0.9%

Verity et al., Estimates of the Severity of COVID 19 Disease
Estimates of the severity of COVID-19 disease

Findings: We estimate the mean duration from onset-of-symptoms to death to be 17.8 days (95% credible interval, crI 16.9,19.2 days) and from onset-of-symptoms to hospital discharge to be 22.6 days (95% crI 21.1,24.4 days). We estimate a crude CFR of 3.67% (95% crI 3.56%,3.80%) in cases from mainland China. Adjusting for demography and under-ascertainment of milder cases in Wuhan relative to the rest of China, we obtain a best estimate of the CFR in China of 1.38% (95% crI 1.23%,1.53%) with substantially higher values in older ages. Our estimate of the CFR from international cases stratified by age (under 60 or 60 and above) are consistent with these estimates from China. We obtain an overall IFR estimate for China of 0.66% (0.39%,1.33%), again with an increasing profile with age. Interpretation: These early estimates give an indication of the fatality ratio across the spectrum of COVID-19 disease and demonstrate a strong age-gradient in risk.

Diamond Princess: IFR 0.5%

Our current best assumption, as of the 22nd March, is the IFR is approximate 0.20% (95% CI, 0.17 to 0.25).
Therefore, to estimate the IFR, we used the estimate from Germany’s current data 22nd March (93 deaths 23129) cases); CFR 0.51% (95% CI, 0.44% to 0.59%) and halved this for the IFR of 0.26% (95% CI, 0.22% to 0.28%) based on the assumption that half the cases go undetected by testing and none of this group dies.

Current data from Iceland suggests the IFR is somewhere between 0.05% and 0.14%. But Iceland protected their most vulnerable citizens.

Global Covid-19 Case Fatality Rates - CEBM
Nothing from China can be used as any part of any equation. They hid the virus itself from the world for months. God knows what their actual numbers are.
You keep ignoring the initial question though, are you saying that 2/3rds of the population, and which population at that, are going to die or simply(as if simply fits in this context) gets infected?
 

Cody Webster

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
25,174
23,276
Nope. And the D bag governor of NJ just shut down breweries delivering beer.
Haha really? That's messed up. Didn't he just approve it a few days ago? So much for trying to help small business.

I'm tempted to go to Levante tomorrow and pick me up the Glitter Parts and Tiny Tickle
 

Lord Defect

Secretary of Blowtorching
Nov 13, 2013
18,753
34,755
It was botched. There was no advance preparation. This was no executive leadership. Here are the facts.

Normal states do not require much Federal oversight to prepare for a major hurricane. By and large, most coordination is carried out state to state and since the late 90s and especially after 9/11, there are mechanisms in place to specifically ease interstate cooperation. Puerto Rico, because it is an island, can't do that. Response necessarily leans on Federal support in a way that a normal hurricane doesn't. Supply and personnel transport can't run on roads. You need to organize that through the DoD; that's outside of DHS. No preparation was being carried out.

Using my own experience I was able to identify several needs. One was that the military would need to set up a supply line. Another was that since the population would be slammed, local transport would be rendered ineffective, so the military would need to provide transport for goods. I called that a hospital ship would be needed as well as the mobilization of Army medical units, and additionally, various surface vessels should be prepared to serve as localized power generators. Naval/Merchant Marine coordination of ports would be a necessity. These were all easily identifiable requirements that can be determined by anybody with an ounce of competence in disaster response. These were all things that needed to be mobilized in advance of the hurricane hitting, especially because we had ample warning that an apocalyptic storm was going to plow through US territories. Not a single one of those things occurred.

An old friend of mine is a captain in the Army. He runs a medical unit. We were talking a week in advance. I asked him if they were getting ready to go to USVI or PR. He said nope. They hadn't gotten word, and he found that bizarre because in the past they had always begun preparations to deploy as part of offered foreign aid when hurricanes go through that area. They were going through with a two week field exercise instead; I was stunned, they even prepare for potential stateside deployment for smaller storms. The hurricane came through, and it wasn't until a couple days after the easily predicted impact occurred, that they were called out of their exercise to scramble down to Georgia for shipment to USVI. The USNS Comfort, I believe didn't begin preparations to ship out until well after the storm. It takes 5 f***ing days for that ship to deploy, so it didn't arrive until a week later. There was ample time to prepare that ship for deployment (as had been common practice in the past with remotely competent administrations) so that it could head out the moment the way was clear.

There was no preparation for supply. It had to be scrambled together after the fact. The corruption you cite, which is completely and totally unrelated to the abysmal failure that was the Federal response? That is mitigated if there is any kind of a real FEMA deployment rather than the half-assed, barebones contingent they sent. That corruption also didn't occur in USVI, and yet the Federal response there was just as mangled, it just didn't get the same coverage.

Days were wasted and people died because of the idiotic and incompetent lack of preparation for a disaster we saw coming from a mile away. There was an unnecessarily large gap in adequate medical response because it was all mobilized days after the storm instead of before, as has always been done.

The same response "methodology" in play then is in play again. Established plans weren't used. Flat out ignored, even. It was indescribably frustrating to watch unfold in advance, and infuriating after as the toll became clear. The people at DHS I know who specifically helped write response manuals for that exact f***ing scenario were ranting in a rage down in Southeast as they watched all the badly needed measures they'd identified long ago get ignored.
This is a good response. Thank you.
 
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Appleyard

Registered User
Mar 5, 2010
31,769
41,185
Copenhagen
twitter.com
Weirdly one of the more annoying things about being back at my parents that I did not even consider...

cant smoke inside.

I mean, I am an infrequent smoker, rarely have more than one a day and probably 3-4/7 days do not at all, go weeks without as well... strangely one of the things I never got hooked on despite an addictive personality, maybe as I think it is an awful habit. But if I do at my own place just smoke out of the window if weather sucks. Here need to go outside.

Though caveat to that is how much I smoke directly relates to who I am with. If I am seeing a girl who smokes I certainly do more often. :laugh:
 
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