All-purpose Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

[ObsessedCreative*]

It's night and day compared to the Pens. This is exactly why I can't stand it when people absolve Bylsma of blame for how the Pens look.

The structure of the Bruins is so damn impressive. In comparison, the Pens look like they've picked up a 1980's playbook.

My beer league team has better structure and execution than the pens at times. So sad.

 

[Freeptop]

I asked this before and didn't get a response. So I'm curious, what exactly is it about Bylsma's coaching that you like or that makes you believe he's a good coach?

Please don't just say something vague like "he keeps them winning through all those injuries". I'm talking more specifics, like systems, player usage, how he adapts, how he prepares, etc. That kind of thing.

Frankly, many of the criticisms of Bylsma are overblown.

He's not nearly as set in his ways as the people of these boards like to portray him as being. Mike Colligan has done several articles showing aspects of Bylsma's system, and the changes he's made to adapt when other teams started catching on to what he was trying.

Also, the idea that he doesn't line match is inaccurate, because if you actually look at how he deploys his players, he is line matching. He may not be matching the way fans want him to line match, but he is doing so.

Bylsma definitely will tell the press one thing, and then do another. The only time this fan-base ever notices that is when what he does is worse than what he says he'll do. Folks around here tend to ignore it if he says something like, "I don't really believe in line matching" and then goes out and matches a particular line against a particular opponent on every shift of the game.

I think his overall concept of moving the puck quickly out of the zone, and trying establish a presence in the offensive zone is sound. The idea of a strong forecheck to wear down opposing players, and strong neutral-zone play is good as well. When it works, the team tends to get results more like game 5. When the execution of that concept breaks down, though, it has a tendency to break down spectacularly badly.

I actually like the fact that Bylsma isn't overly demonstrative on the bench. He chooses his places to yell at the refs, and I do think that benefits the Pens a bit when it comes to calls. He generally tries to keep criticism in private rather than public as well. Contrary to the assumptions made, 24/7 certainly made it look like he does level criticisms on players in person, even if he doesn't do so in public. The fact that he generally doesn't criticize players in public made his post game-4 tirade that much more noticeable. What I'm currently not sure of is whether he did that as a calculated move, or out of desperation. I'm not willing to jump to either conclusion on that one.

In some ways, I think part of the problem is that Bylsma's system is too complicated, which means that players either end up thinking too much, or else they just always fall back to the same thing. This means they either take too long to move the puck, or they become entirely too predictable. That's on the coaching staff - the system should never be so complicated that this happens. I think that's an area where Bylsma needs to learn quite a bit. Keep things simpler.

I also think he will learn those lessons, but at this point, I don't think he'll learn them with the Pens. The team-wide arrogance and complacency will prevent any of them (coaches or players) from seeing what they're doing wrong, until they are forced to do so. A change in coaching staff would be the kick in the pants to everyone that would force it. Unfortunately for Bylsma, it would mean he'd have to make the next step forward with another organization - and don't kid yourselves, he'd be hired by another NHL team very quickly.

 

[madinsomniac]

Frankly, many of the criticisms of Bylsma are overblown.

He's not nearly as set in his ways as the people of these boards like to portray him as being. Mike Colligan has done several articles showing aspects of Bylsma's system, and the changes he's made to adapt when other teams started catching on to what he was trying.

Also, the idea that he doesn't line match is inaccurate, because if you actually look at how he deploys his players, he is line matching. He may not be matching the way fans want him to line match, but he is doing so.

Bylsma definitely will tell the press one thing, and then do another. The only time this fan-base ever notices that is when what he does is worse than what he says he'll do. Folks around here tend to ignore it if he says something like, "I don't really believe in line matching" and then goes out and matches a particular line against a particular opponent on every shift of the game.

I think his overall concept of moving the puck quickly out of the zone, and trying establish a presence in the offensive zone is sound. The idea of a strong forecheck to wear down opposing players, and strong neutral-zone play is good as well. When it works, the team tends to get results more like game 5. When the execution of that concept breaks down, though, it has a tendency to break down spectacularly badly.
I actually like the fact that Bylsma isn't overly demonstrative on the bench. He chooses his places to yell at the refs, and I do think that benefits the Pens a bit when it comes to calls. He generally tries to keep criticism in private rather than public as well. Contrary to the assumptions made, 24/7 certainly made it look like he does level criticisms on players in person, even if he doesn't do so in public. The fact that he generally doesn't criticize players in public made his post game-4 tirade that much more noticeable. What I'm currently not sure of is whether he did that as a calculated move, or out of desperation. I'm not willing to jump to either conclusion on that one.

In some ways, I think part of the problem is that Bylsma's system is too complicated, which means that players either end up thinking too much, or else they just always fall back to the same thing. This means they either take too long to move the puck, or they become entirely too predictable. That's on the coaching staff - the system should never be so complicated that this happens. I think that's an area where Bylsma needs to learn quite a bit. Keep things simpler.

I also think he will learn those lessons, but at this point, I don't think he'll learn them with the Pens. The team-wide arrogance and complacency will prevent any of them (coaches or players) from seeing what they're doing wrong, until they are forced to do so. A change in coaching staff would be the kick in the pants to everyone that would force it. Unfortunately for Bylsma, it would mean he'd have to make the next step forward with another organization - and don't kid yourselves, he'd be hired by another NHL team very quickly.

I disagree with some of the above statements. His plan for moving the puck out quickly has been a total detriment to the team after the first year and a half it was in place... teams caught on and its one of the worse parts of the system. The line matching is a huge issue especially when he is making little to no effort in playoff games to get crosby or malkin away from the shutdown pairings even at home... he occassionally line matches... he isnt good at it and hasnt gotten better at it... rarely in the last 5 years has it gained us any distinct advantage especially in a big game...

as for the forecheck... I love agressive hockey, but honestly we use so many average to slow players on the forecheck its really just not useful right now. if they want that style of play they should have set the roster with a heck of a lot more speed than it has now... the hit from the gritty player two seconds after the puck is passed safely is far less effective than the speed player forcing a bad pass early.

Ive often said Bylsma is young and will probably learn more when he moves on from this job, but his shelf life here has been long spent and he isnt what the team needs right this moment.. we are in the middle of yet another drawn out series against a clearly inferior opponant for the umpteenth year in a row....

 

[Freeptop]

I disagree with some of the above statements. His plan for moving the puck out quickly has been a total detriment to the team after the first year and a half it was in place... teams caught on and its one of the worse parts of the system. The line matching is a huge issue especially when he is making little to no effort in playoff games to get crosby or malkin away from the shutdown pairings even at home... he occassionally line matches... he isnt good at it and hasnt gotten better at it... rarely in the last 5 years has it gained us any distinct advantage especially in a big game...

I think one of Bylsma's biggest problems is a tendency to add to the complexity of his system when he tries to make adjustments. Here's an example from Mike Colligan:
http://thehockeywriters.com/penguins-faceoff-play/

Note that in order to counter opponents' adjusting to "the Neal Play", Bylsma added two or three more variations. If your players can all get on the same page, remember all of those, and be ready to work any of them at the drop of a hat, sure, it's going to be awesome, because your opponent is never going to know just what you're going to do.

If your players have to think about it, though, you can end up in trouble.

As for the line matches - Bylsma regularly put Staal's line out against the toughest competition whenever he could. It was effective. He tried that with Sutter's line, and it wasn't effective. As a result, Crosby and Malkin (though especially Crosby) have seen their quality of competition rise dramatically this season.
http://www.pensburgh.com/2014/3/18/5522310/bylsma-and-match-ups

He may not do the line matches that we want to see, but it is not true to say he only does them infrequently. He really does deliberately send Crosby against the opposing top lines most games.

as for the forecheck... I love agressive hockey, but honestly we use so many average to slow players on the forecheck its really just not useful right now. if they want that style of play they should have set the roster with a heck of a lot more speed than it has now... the hit from the gritty player two seconds after the puck is passed safely is far less effective than the speed player forcing a bad pass early.

A forecheck isn't purely about hitting. It's about taking away your opponents' options and forcing them into particular areas of the ice. The forecheck is one area where the execution for the Pens has been really poor recently, and it hasn't always been the case (for that matter, game 5 showed that it doesn't have to be poor).

Ive often said Bylsma is young and will probably learn more when he moves on from this job, but his shelf life here has been long spent and he isnt what the team needs right this moment.. we are in the middle of yet another drawn out series against a clearly inferior opponant for the umpteenth year in a row....

I am in agreement here. I may like Bylsma, but I think he's hit his expiration date with the Pens.

I don't even think the players have tuned him out - I just think that both the coaches and the players have fallen into complacency (and, yes, arrogance), so the learning process for a young coach just isn't happening the way it should. Which means that if the team doesn't win the Cup this year (and I don't think they will, though I'd love to be proven wrong), then they should make a coaching change just to jolt them out of that complacency.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Bylsma has got to go. We all know it. He has run his course with this team.

 

[Country Mac]

Last night, Adams held the puck and was able to make a gorgeous dish right to the tape of Cam Atkinson, who Fleury robbed of a goal. In the ensuing penalty kill, Adams stayed on the ice. **** those two.

 

[Shady Machine]

Last night, Adams held the puck and was able to make a gorgeous dish right to the tape of Cam Atkinson, who Fleury robbed of a goal. In the ensuing penalty kill, Adams stayed on the ice. **** those two.

Yeah that was quite frustrating. I mean in this series he benched Letang and Kunitz for stupid plays, but somehow Craig Adams is immune. I mean I know benching for mistakes isn't always the way to go (benching should be more reserved for stupid **** or repeated mistakes), but the dude's ice time should be extremely limited anyway. Rolling him out the next shift was ridiculous.

 

[madinsomniac]

Yeah that was quite frustrating. I mean in this series he benched Letang and Kunitz for stupid plays, but somehow Craig Adams is immune. I mean I know benching for mistakes isn't always the way to go (benching should be more reserved for stupid **** or repeated mistakes), but the dude's ice time should be extremely limited anyway. Rolling him out the next shift was ridiculous.

Earlier this year Adams failed to clear a puck twice on the same penalty kill, missed a pass from Malkin then lost the ensuing puck battle, which led to a goal, was put right back out on the Pk next time and again gave up several key chances... Vets don't get the smackdown young guys do unless they are Jokienen or maybe Letang... Lets see how the rest of this playoffs go...

 

[KIRK]

Earlier this year Adams failed to clear a puck twice on the same penalty kill, missed a pass from Malkin then lost the ensuing puck battle, which led to a goal, was put right back out on the Pk next time and again gave up several key chances... Vets don't get the smackdown young guys do unless they are Jokienen or maybe Letang... Lets see how the rest of this playoffs go...

When was Jokinen ever benched (or when did he miss a shift)? He's more likely to engage in a battle for the puck than to be held accountable for not doing something like that.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Bottom line is wherever the blame lies, we simply cannot go 5 years without a cup and keep things the same. May sound spoiled, but when you have this much talent then that's the way it is. Especially considering the Hawks have gotten 2 before the cap will affect them( like it has us this season). Pens win one very early on, and nothing to show for it since.

I get they want familiarity . And I don't want them making huge changes after each year they lose such as teams like the Flyers( making matters worse) but I'd like some middle ground between the two.

We've dissected this teams problems over and over so no need for that. But as I said, wherever the blame lies....if this team bails out again these playoffs then changes have to be made. It's a must. It would literally do nothing for this team going forward by remaining the same. If they couldn't get it done after 5 years, how could they possibly believe that could change ? Especially with us continuing to be right up against the cap.

Hypothetically speaking let's just say Bylsma is a great coach, has a great system. He may go somewhere else and have a long successful career. Have the perfect players for his system. But if we lose again this year, it should be painfully obvious to the FO, that it simply is not working with this group of players. You don't need more than 5 years to determine it isn't the right fit...for this group of guys.

A lot of have been worried about them winning 1 round just saved Bylsma but I don't believe that. While his job has been safe, there's no doubt the failures have been tallied. The way I see it, unless the Pens finally get out of the East again...there will be a change. It's not wishful thinking, but common sense. I mean it's the only option. If there isn't a change, then we have much bigger issues than Bylsma. We should focus all of our concerns on management. They've done some good things along with the bad, but if failure is accepted any longer...then I'm going to lose hope.

I repeat, forget who is to blame. 5 years without even getting back to the cup after beating the best team in the world and having the two best players in the world should be completely unacceptable. They'd have to see that. No matter if it means letting one of the great coaches in this league go( again, if that happens to be the case down the road) . If we do lose then no more being patient, hoping this group of players can excel in this system. I mean ****, if that's how they are looking at it then this is the most complex system in the history of sports. Makes Dick Lebeau look like a peewee coordinator.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Bottom line is wherever the blame lies, we simply cannot go 5 years without a cup and keep things the same. May sound spoiled, but when you have this much talent then that's the way it is. Especially considering the Hawks have gotten 2 before the cap will affect them( like it has us this season). Pens win one very early on, and nothing to show for it since.

I get they want familiarity . And I don't want them making huge changes after each year they lose such as teams like the Flyers( making matters worse) but I'd like some middle ground between the two.

We've dissected this teams problems over and over so no need for that. But as I said, wherever the blame lies....if this team bails out again these playoffs then changes have to be made. It's a must. It would literally do nothing for this team going forward by remaining the same. If they couldn't get it done after 5 years, how could they possibly believe that could change ? Especially with us continuing to be right up against the cap.

Hypothetically speaking let's just say Bylsma is a great coach, has a great system. He may go somewhere else and have a long successful career. Have the perfect players for his system. But if we lose again this year, it should be painfully obvious to the FO, that it simply is not working with this group of players. You don't need more than 5 years to determine it isn't the right fit...for this group of guys.

A lot of have been worried about them winning 1 round just saved Bylsma but I don't believe that. While his job has been safe, there's no doubt the failures have been tallied. The way I see it, unless the Pens finally get out of the East again...there will be a change. It's not wishful thinking, but common sense. I mean it's the only option. If there isn't a change, then we have much bigger issues than Bylsma. We should focus all of our concerns on management. They've done some good things along with the bad, but if failure is accepted any longer...then I'm going to lose hope.

Not one mention of Rejean Shero. 5 years of futility and the guy still gets a free pass. I have a feeling he is nowhere near getting fired. Bylsma is on the hot seat for sure, but it just seems that the team is pleased with Shero, he needs to just as much, if not more than Bylsma.

Who signed Bylsma to that extension last summer? Who re-signed Craig Adams, signed Scuderi well past his prime, signed Kobasew, D'ags and Jeffrey all of who were waived? Who is so incapable of finding top 6 wingers under 35 years old? Who didn't trade Letang? Who went into the season with Eric Tangradi as a top 6 player 2 years ago? Who is ruining this team? SHERO!

I hate Bylsma. I will never understand how he justifies starting glass and Adams every game.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Not one mention of Rejean Shero. 5 years of futility and the guy still gets a free pass. I have a feeling he is nowhere near getting fired. Bylsma is on the hot seat for sure, but it just seems that the team is pleased with Shero.

I was including him as apart of management making the decisions. Meaning if this is allowed to continue, then he's a much bigger issue than Bylsma is. Shero has made mistakes, but there's a flipside to that as well. Every GM has their flaws...made moves they'd love to have back. He's done some good things and helped us get that cup in 09. Losing the cup in 08 and then guys like Hossa and Malone follow. Combine that with the fact that it's not easy getting back to the cup after losing the previous year, he deserved the praise he got after we did win. Adding Guerin, Kunitz, Feds, and Cooke was the difference for us. I get none of that really needs to be said, but just saying it because that is exactly what allowed him to not take most of the blame ever since. So while he's lost the " in Shero we trust " title, he's bought himself more time than Bylsma. It'd be a different story if Dan won that cup under his system.

I also don't mind the mindset Shero had at the deadline last year. He gave it his best shot to try to get this team back on top. Of course it was horrible timing since the prices at the deadline were much higher than this year, but I liked the mindset. He was obviously fed up with the previous years as well. We can fault him for believing it was more personnel than system but the fact he put himself out there like that and nothing to show for it , I'm sure that pushed him much closer to believing it's more about the system. There's been other examples as well( dmen leaving and performing better / arriving and doing worse).

By the way , I focused on coach/system instead of Shero because that would be the first thing that needs to go after it being obvious these players cannot succeed with it. I mentioned some of the positives of Shero, but I agree there's been some horrible mistakes. I just realize every GM makes them. When the bad starts heavily outweighing the good, for quite awhile...that's when it's time for change.

 

[KIRK]

Bottom line is wherever the blame lies, we simply cannot go 5 years without a cup and keep things the same. May sound spoiled, but when you have this much talent then that's the way it is. Especially considering the Hawks have gotten 2 before the cap will affect them( like it has us this season). Pens win one very early on, and nothing to show for it since.

I get they want familiarity . And I don't want them making huge changes after each year they lose such as teams like the Flyers( making matters worse) but I'd like some middle ground between the two.

We've dissected this teams problems over and over so no need for that. But as I said, wherever the blame lies....if this team bails out again these playoffs then changes have to be made. It's a must. It would literally do nothing for this team going forward by remaining the same. If they couldn't get it done after 5 years, how could they possibly believe that could change ? Especially with us continuing to be right up against the cap.

Hypothetically speaking let's just say Bylsma is a great coach, has a great system. He may go somewhere else and have a long successful career. Have the perfect players for his system. But if we lose again this year, it should be painfully obvious to the FO, that it simply is not working with this group of players. You don't need more than 5 years to determine it isn't the right fit...for this group of guys.

A lot of have been worried about them winning 1 round just saved Bylsma but I don't believe that. While his job has been safe, there's no doubt the failures have been tallied. The way I see it, unless the Pens finally get out of the East again...there will be a change. It's not wishful thinking, but common sense. I mean it's the only option. If there isn't a change, then we have much bigger issues than Bylsma. We should focus all of our concerns on management. They've done some good things along with the bad, but if failure is accepted any longer...then I'm going to lose hope.

I repeat, forget who is to blame. 5 years without even getting back to the cup after beating the best team in the world and having the two best players in the world should be completely unacceptable. They'd have to see that. No matter if it means letting one of the great coaches in this league go( again, if that happens to be the case down the road) . If we do lose then no more being patient, hoping this group of players can excel in this system. I mean ****, if that's how they are looking at it then this is the most complex system in the history of sports. Makes Dick Lebeau look like a peewee coordinator.

Respectfully, even I would say you could go five years without a cup. But, to not come within 8 wins and to have done pretty much nothing to build around Sid and Geno, THAT is the inexcusable part IMO.

 

[Malkin112*]

sorry to say but Bylsma will stay many more years.

 

[Freeptop]

Respectfully, even I would say you could go five years without a cup. But, to not come within 8 wins and to have done pretty much nothing to build around Sid and Geno, THAT is the inexcusable part IMO.

Last season they were within 8 wins, so they only went 4 years without coming within 8 wins. Considering the full circumstances, only the 2012 playoffs are truly inexcusable in that 4 years. The four-game sweep to the Bruins was pretty embarrassing as well, but, well, you're the one that set the criteria as "coming within 8 wins."

Plus, in terms of building around Sid and Geno: apparently Kunitz and Neal count as "nothing".

It's fair to say you think Shero should have done more, but saying Shero's done "nothing" is demonstrably false.

For that matter, while I know you don't like Jokinen, he's actually been pretty good for the Pens, particularly when you look at possession stats.

Shero has also attempted to do more to build around them, but it doesn't always work out. (See: bringing in Iginla, attempting to sign Parise, attempting to trade for Kesler, etc).

 

[joeyjake5]

Last season they were within 8 wins, so they only went 4 years without coming within 8 wins. Considering the full circumstances, only the 2012 playoffs are truly inexcusable in that 4 years. The four-game sweep to the Bruins was pretty embarrassing as well, but, well, you're the one that set the criteria as "coming within 8 wins."

Plus, in terms of building around Sid and Geno: apparently Kunitz and Neal count as "nothing".

It's fair to say you think Shero should have done more, but saying Shero's done "nothing" is demonstrably false.

For that matter, while I know you don't like Jokinen, he's actually been pretty good for the Pens, particularly when you look at possession stats.

Shero has also attempted to do more to build around them, but it doesn't always work out. (See: bringing in Iginla, attempting to sign Parise, attempting to trade for Kesler, etc).

To say Shero has not mistakes is foolhearty. Whether he has made more good or bad moves is debatable.

But one ?, If Hossa, Parise or Staal had resigned or signed with the pens, where does that leave Malkin and Letang. There is a cap to consider.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Last season they were within 8 wins, so they only went 4 years without coming within 8 wins. Considering the full circumstances, only the 2012 playoffs are truly inexcusable in that 4 years. The four-game sweep to the Bruins was pretty embarrassing as well, but, well, you're the one that set the criteria as "coming within 8 wins."

Plus, in terms of building around Sid and Geno: apparently Kunitz and Neal count as "nothing".

It's fair to say you think Shero should have done more, but saying Shero's done "nothing" is demonstrably false.

For that matter, while I know you don't like Jokinen, he's actually been pretty good for the Pens, particularly when you look at possession stats.

Shero has also attempted to do more to build around them, but it doesn't always work out. (See: bringing in Iginla, attempting to sign Parise, attempting to trade for Kesler, etc).

Giving the 2 best centers in the world 1 good winger each is not building around them.

And if Shero get's credit for trying (and failing) to get a few wingers does that mean we shouldn't replace MAF, too? He tries really hard to not lose games so he shouldn't be punished for failing to do so, right?

 

[Freeptop]

To say Shero has not mistakes is foolhearty. Whether he has made more good or bad moves is debatable.

But one ?, If Hossa, Parise or Staal had resigned or signed with the pens, where does that leave Malkin and Letang. There is a cap to consider.

I'm not sure why I was being quoted for this response. When have I ever said that Shero has made no mistakes?

If saying Shero has made no mistakes is foolhardy, then why is it any different to say he's done nothing to improve Crosby and Malkin's wings?

 

[KIRK]

Last season they were within 8 wins, so they only went 4 years without coming within 8 wins. Considering the full circumstances, only the 2012 playoffs are truly inexcusable in that 4 years. The four-game sweep to the Bruins was pretty embarrassing as well, but, well, you're the one that set the criteria as "coming within 8 wins."

Plus, in terms of building around Sid and Geno: apparently Kunitz and Neal count as "nothing".

It's fair to say you think Shero should have done more, but saying Shero's done "nothing" is demonstrably false.

For that matter, while I know you don't like Jokinen, he's actually been pretty good for the Pens, particularly when you look at possession stats.

Shero has also attempted to do more to build around them, but it doesn't always work out. (See: bringing in Iginla, attempting to sign Parise, attempting to trade for Kesler, etc).

Name one thing Kunitz or Neal or Jokinen do to help Sid and Geno get to THEIR games. You see, that's the problem. Some people like 2014 Kunitz. I wish we had the 2009 version. I'm sure Sid does.

As for Shero . . . you call trying to get Parise and getting Iginla building around Sid and Geno. No point to my going any further . . . not worth the effort . . . cough, Saad or Hertl, cough, edit cough Orpik or even Letang for help up front, cough.

EDIT: And WTF is with this whole 'well, he tries' ****. Reminds me of the 'you know, Bylsma is young and learning" horse****. **** that. I don't want a GM who tries for Sid and Geno. I want a GM who does. And, I sure as **** don't want an on the job trainee behind the bench. I want a guy with the gravitas and tactical and bench management abilities that at long last generational talents like Sid and Geno deserve. 'He tries'. That's ******* rich.

 

[Tender Rip]

Name one thing Kunitz or Neal or Jokinen do to help Sid and Geno get to THEIR games. You see, that's the problem. Some people like 2014 Kunitz. I wish we had the 2009 version. I'm sure Sid does.

Seriously, not to be flippant, but I am not sure what Sid's game is these days other than being a transition monster when healthy.
I kinda think our overall strategy of having everything go North/South immediately is exactly designed to cater to the perception of what Sid would excel in the most. For that reason we look for players who are perceived to be able to play that style, rather than looking at good players who could add qualities to what Sid already brings.

I do know that Malkin would want to play a different type of game than what we are, and that it would help a great deal if there was one of his line mates who could provide qualities very much different to what is the case now.... easy to say as we have seen such a player on Malkin's line in each of the three seasons he has been winning the Art Ross or being runner up. I don't really think it needs to be about more than finding one guy who can grind, skate and has reasonable hockey IQ. Malkin always worked well having a sniper with him if the other side of the equation was covered also.


Anyway.... there is no hope for anyone who keeps this Glass in the line up come hell or high water. I know there are other elite coaches who have had their pets driving fan bases rabid, but most those guys at least used to be good players. Glass has always been a borderline NHL player who should never see playoff ice.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Last season they were within 8 wins, so they only went 4 years without coming within 8 wins. Considering the full circumstances, only the 2012 playoffs are truly inexcusable in that 4 years. The four-game sweep to the Bruins was pretty embarrassing as well, but, well, you're the one that set the criteria as "coming within 8 wins."

Plus, in terms of building around Sid and Geno: apparently Kunitz and Neal count as "nothing".

It's fair to say you think Shero should have done more, but saying Shero's done "nothing" is demonstrably false.

For that matter, while I know you don't like Jokinen, he's actually been pretty good for the Pens, particularly when you look at possession stats.

Shero has also attempted to do more to build around them, but it doesn't always work out. (See: bringing in Iginla, attempting to sign Parise, attempting to trade for Kesler, etc).

And he'd(Bylsma) make those players coming in suck too.

Look at all of Bylsma's postseason stats since '09 when he truly sunk his teeth into the organisation. Bylsma is nothing special. He's reaching below mediocre levels in terms of a playoff bench boss.

You know who is special? Sid and Geno.
These guys deserve to be surrounded by people who know what the hell they're doing. It's taken too long to figure out Bylsma has no clue.

I'm pointing fingers at Mario though. The guy should know better. I think his patience with Bylsma is finally running out though. Thank Gretzky.

 

[canadianguy77]

Kunitz has played like a has-been or never-was since the Olympic rosters were announced. He bears no resemblance to the player he's been for us in the past. he no longer hits, he no longer forechecks, and he's been real iffy on going to the front of the net. When Dupuis was playing this season, it was obvious that he too had lost something. This team needs an overhaul. That much is obvious. That DB failed to see this and tell Ray what we needed is another indictment of him on his ability to see his teams strengths/weaknesses.

 

[Miss Ausguins]

Bylsma has got to go. We all know it. He has run his course with this team.

I believe he was done 2 years ago.

 

[Freeptop]

Name one thing Kunitz or Neal or Jokinen do to help Sid and Geno get to THEIR games. You see, that's the problem. Some people like 2014 Kunitz. I wish we had the 2009 version. I'm sure Sid does.

As for Shero . . . you call trying to get Parise and getting Iginla building around Sid and Geno. No point to my going any further . . . not worth the effort . . . cough, Saad or Hertl, cough, edit cough Orpik or even Letang for help up front, cough.

EDIT: And WTF is with this whole 'well, he tries' ****. Reminds me of the 'you know, Bylsma is young and learning" horse****. **** that. I don't want a GM who tries for Sid and Geno. I want a GM who does. And, I sure as **** don't want an on the job trainee behind the bench. I want a guy with the gravitas and tactical and bench management abilities that at long last generational talents like Sid and Geno deserve. 'He tries'. That's ******* rich.

Nice. Rather than have a calm, rational discussion, you resort to swearing and disparaging comments.

That said, I'll try to respond to your comments anyway.

You claimed that Shero had done nothing to improve the top 6. Now you're saying that Shero has to have players that "help Sid and Geno get to their games" without actually saying what that means. Funny, I thought you criticized Bylsma for all the "get to our game" nonsense, but here you're throwing it around like it means any more coming from you than it does from him.

Kunitz - when he plays his game, he's a forechecker who can retrieve the puck in the corners, will drive to the net, and has a good shot. All of which open up space for Crosby, thus, allowing him to "get to his game". Oh, and he's defensively responsible, too, which is why when the Penguins discovered they couldn't trust Sutter the same way they used to trust Staal against other teams' top lines, they were able to put Crosby and Kunitz out there against opposing teams' top lines this season. The result? Kunitz has a career year, and Crosby leads the NHL in points by a ridiculous margin, despite them playing against the toughest quality of competition they've faced as Penguins.

Neal - Come on. Seriously? Neal is streaky, but when he's on, he seems to always know right where to be to support Malkin. Between that and his shot, other teams have to cover Neal, instead of just loading up with all their defense against Malkin. The biggest problem, though, is that Malkin defers to him far, far too much, instead of taking the shot himself. I'm not sure why that would be different if Malkin got an even better player on his wing.

Jokinen - Yeah, what a bum. He's only tied with Malkin for the team lead in playoff goal scoring, has been able to take faceoffs for Malkin (who is still terrible at them after 7 years in the NHL), and can fill in as a center when Crosby, Malkin or Sutter are injured. The fact that he can sneak into gaps in coverage to cash in on rebounds isn't something this team can use at all!

My point about the trying is that you're making it sound like Shero doesn't care, or isn't even trying to improve the team, and that is demonstrably false.

I'm not saying Shero does everything right. Far from it. But I do refute the idea that he's done "nothing to build around Sid and Geno." That assertion is patently absurd.

KIRK - I used to really respect your opinion on these boards, but you've gone from someone who could rationally debate to someone who resorts to name-calling and dismissal instead of discussion. I'm quite willing to rationally debate. Just lay off the swearing and the hyperbole. I suspect if you do so, you'll find we agree on far more things than we disagree on.

And he'd(Bylsma) make those players coming in suck too.

Look at all of Bylsma's postseason stats since '09 when he truly sunk his teeth into the organisation. Bylsma is nothing special. He's reaching below mediocre levels in terms of a playoff bench boss.

You know who is special? Sid and Geno.
These guys deserve to be surrounded by people who know what the hell they're doing. It's taken too long to figure out Bylsma has no clue.

I'm pointing fingers at Mario though. The guy should know better. I think his patience with Bylsma is finally running out though. Thank Gretzky.

There's a difference between saying that Bylsma would make those players suck, and saying that Shero has done nothing to build around Sid and Geno. I was arguing against the latter.