All-purpose Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

[billybudd]

Iggy's cap hit is 1.8M, no 6M. Boston is deferring his bonuses till next year, when the cap goes up, which Shero could have easily done as well.

This was discussed in the previous "fire DB" thread a few times.

http://capgeek.com/player/438

Not by me.

So you're suggesting that the current roster, like Boston, can plausibly be argued to be one Iginla away from winning a cup and should therefore, not only push bonuses from this year to next, but incur future cap penalties that could cost them other players because of it?

I'm sorry, but there's not 1 player in the NHL that can be added to this roster that makes it a legitimate enough threat to win a Stanley Cup to make such a strategy worthwhile. And even if it was, Iginla's not that player.

When there's a crushing mortgage on your future, you don't take out a second.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Apparently Theo Fleury tweeted that only 5 players on the Pens were committed to playing defense. I couldn't figure out who those 5 were.

Malkin and Maatta were mentioned as 2 by someone in the thread.

Another 2 he must've been referring to were Adams and Glass because when those guys are on the ice, they're never in the offensive zone. Too busy standing around like pylons in the defensive zone hoping to block shots.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Not by me.

So you're suggesting that the current roster, like Boston, can plausibly be argued to be one Iginla away from winning a cup and should therefore, not only push bonuses from this year to next, but incur future cap penalties that could cost them other players because of it?

I'm sorry, but there's not 1 player in the NHL that can be added to this roster that makes it a legitimate enough threat to win a Stanley Cup to make such a strategy worthwhile. And even if it was, Iginla's not that player.

When there's a crushing mortgage on your future, you don't take out a second.

No. I'm stating the fact that Iggy's cap hit is 1.8M not 6M.

 

[MrBurghundy]

No. I'm stating the fact that Iggy's cap hit is 1.8M not 6M.

How attainable are the bonuses though?

Edit: Sorry I'm coming into the middle if a discussion I had no interest in getting caught up on.

 

[madinsomniac]

How attainable are the bonuses though?

Edit: Sorry I'm coming into the middle if a discussion I had no interest in getting caught up on.

Playing Left wing and on the second PP for us or RW and on the top PP for them?

 

[billybudd]

No. I'm stating the fact that Iggy's cap hit is 1.8M not 6M.

It's 1.8 million this year and $4.2 million next year, whether he's there or not (more if he is) plus penalties. That's north of $6 million in cap dollars allocated to one player for the 2013-14 season.

If you want to use the argument that Shero should have "done the same thing," you need to make the case that going the Boston route to jiu-jitsu how his $6 million cap hit gets counted--deducting the rest plus penalties from next season--makes sense for the Pittsburgh Penguins for any reason at all. It just doesn't.

Boston is close enough that robbing from their own future makes sense for them. We're not that team this year.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

It's 1.8 million this year and $4.2 million next year, whether he's there or not (more if he is) plus penalties. That's north of $6 million in cap dollars allocated to one player for the 2013-14 season.

If you want to use the argument that Shero should have "done the same thing," you need to make the case that going the Boston route to jiu-jitsu how his $6 million cap hit gets counted--deducting the rest plus penalties from next season--makes sense for the Pittsburgh Penguins for any reason at all. It just doesn't.

Boston is close enough that robbing from their own future makes sense for them. We're not that team this year.

So you agree that not signing Iggy had nothing to do with cap space...even though that was your first sentence.

 

[billybudd]

So you agree that not signing Iggy had nothing to do with cap space...even though that was your first sentence.

Not at all, no.

 

[Tender Rip]

Not by me.

So you're suggesting that the current roster, like Boston, can plausibly be argued to be one Iginla away from winning a cup and should therefore, not only push bonuses from this year to next, but incur future cap penalties that could cost them other players because of it?

I'm sorry, but there's not 1 player in the NHL that can be added to this roster that makes it a legitimate enough threat to win a Stanley Cup to make such a strategy worthwhile. And even if it was, Iginla's not that player.

When there's a crushing mortgage on your future, you don't take out a second.

I have yet to see what the actual penalty part is? As far as I can tell the amount that will be added to the Bruins payroll for next year as belonging to this one is equal to what they will be exceeding this years cap with. I am not being adamant about this, because I simply don't know, but that is what the numbers suggest to me.

If that is indeed so, there is little to prevent the Bruins from making similar incentive laden contracts next season and push such "penalties" in perpetuity until they either see players not making their bonuses; have ELC players to replace higher paid players with, or simply reach the end of a window and take a re-boot year.

As such I agree that Boston are likely closer to that situation than we are, what with Chara being a million years old, but unless there are actual PENALTIES, and not just deferred salary, I would suggest that Chiarelli just found a very nice legal way to game the system. One we could have also exploited if he had so desired.

Again, if you can tell me what the actual penalty part is here... I could reconsider, but as far as I can see a 4.5 million penalty with Iginla getting 4.2 million more than his cap-hit and Krug making bonuses also, there doesn't really seem to be any.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned regarding Bylsma is that under him, the four teams the Pens have lost to haven't been particularly excellent or successful teams. In fact the Canadians, Lightning, Flyers, and Bruins have combined to win 1 series after beating the Penguins and have 11 total wins after that, 7 of those by the Lightning. Which means that with a healthy (with Crosby and Malkin) roster, the teams they have lost to have gone on to win a total of 4 games from that point forward.

I remember in 2012 after losing to the Flyers, before the opinion of wanting Bylsma gone was widespread, a majority of this board was convinced the Flyers were on their way to the cup after beating the Penguins soundly. Of course, that unstoppable offensive team was completely shut down by a competent coach the next round.

 

[KIRK]

It sounds like hyperbole but it's where I would lay most of the blame as well. I'd replace Bylsma before I moved any of what was perceived to be the core of this team.

Unfortunately it's taken this long to act (haven't even yet) and at least 2 seasons have been pissed away waiting for Bylsma to figure anything out. I grind my teeth thinking what this team could look like had they had acted sooner.

You're not alone.

As an aside, calling players out in the paper on the day you gave everyone the day off sends a signal that you are just ****ing off and do not mean a word you said.

Remember when Kevin Constantine yelled at the guys 'are you trying to get me fired' right before he in fact was fired? This is what Bylsma calling out the team was. Desperation. Of course, if it really were true and honest desperation, part of what he'd be doing is looking in the mirror and seeing something other than perfection.

Maatta hasn't been around long enough to fully absorb our culture. He doesn't know things just happen for us; no need to work for them.

Geno...I just feel bad for Geno. He does everything for line 2. Everything.

And yet there still is no line change.

Seriously, leave systems and everything else out of it. Sid isn't producing. Geno isn't producing. Why is for post mortems. Right NOW, any coach worth his salt would be trying everything to jump start them.

Byslma refuses to try ANYTHING.

As I said elsewhere, for that reason alone, he should be fired.

 

[Big Poppa Pump]

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Had we fired Bylsma last summer, Iginla may have re-upped for free.

 

[Shockmaster]

You're not alone.



Remember when Kevin Constantine yelled at the guys 'are you trying to get me fired' right before he in fact was fired? This is what Bylsma calling out the team was. Desperation. Of course, if it really were true and honest desperation, part of what he'd be doing is looking in the mirror and seeing something other than perfection.



And yet there still is no line change.

Seriously, leave systems and everything else out of it. Sid isn't producing. Geno isn't producing. Why is for post mortems. Right NOW, any coach worth his salt would be trying everything to jump start them.

Byslma refuses to try ANYTHING.

As I said elsewhere, for that reason alone, he should be fired.

That's not true! He'll play Craig Adams or Tanner Glass with Crosby or Malkin to get them going.

 

[yankeesdynsty*]

actually, yes

Edit:

it really doesn't matter what happened in the past. People need to accept that just because MAF won a Cup in 2009 doesn't mean he hasn't cost them games since.

Just because Bylsma won a Cup and pushed the right buttons in 2009 (and occasionally thereafter) doesn't mean he hasn't run his course with the Penguins.

Every coach, EVERY COACH, has an expiry date.

If Bylsma has reached his, choose between getting rid of all the players or getting rid of him. You'll have to do one or the other.

I'd say get rid of Bylsma, his coaching, his system are crap, the 09 cup he walked right into, the team was in all out mode, not Bylsma coaching style, we didn't see that till the following season. I was never in favor giving him a chance b/c I could tell he wasn't that good. It was b/c the team was go all out attack, win or lose in 09. Yet everyone gives Bylsma the credit for it, he deserves nothing!!!!

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I have yet to see what the actual penalty part is? As far as I can tell the amount that will be added to the Bruins payroll for next year as belonging to this one is equal to what they will be exceeding this years cap with. I am not being adamant about this, because I simply don't know, but that is what the numbers suggest to me.

If that is indeed so, there is little to prevent the Bruins from making similar incentive laden contracts next season and push such "penalties" in perpetuity until they either see players not making their bonuses; have ELC players to replace higher paid players with, or simply reach the end of a window and take a re-boot year.

As such I agree that Boston are likely closer to that situation than we are, what with Chara being a million years old, but unless there are actual PENALTIES, and not just deferred salary, I would suggest that Chiarelli just found a very nice legal way to game the system. One we could have also exploited if he had so desired.

Again, if you can tell me what the actual penalty part is here... I could reconsider, but as far as I can see a 4.5 million penalty with Iginla getting 4.2 million more than his cap-hit and Krug making bonuses also, there doesn't really seem to be any.

It breaks down as follows to my understanding:

1.8 mil base salary / cap hit 2013-14
4.2 mil in bonuses that are deferred to 2014-15 cap for Boston
.3 mil in penalty for this "roll forward"

So next year Iggy will count 4.5 mil towards their cap, 300k more than his total compensation over those two years.

The way the deal is structured is predicated on his age somehow.

This puts Boston in a bit of a bind next year, they do have FA's to sign. But it wasn't an awful move, as you mention, Chara is a million years old, and their window with him as the cornerstone of their D is closing.

 

[Shockmaster]

It breaks down as follows to my understanding:

1.8 mil base salary / cap hit 2013-14
4.2 mil in bonuses that are deferred to 2014-15 cap for Boston
.3 mil in penalty for this "roll forward"

So next year Iggy will count 4.5 mil towards their cap, 300k more than his total compensation over those two years.

The way the deal is structured is predicated on his age somehow.

This puts Boston in a bit of a bind next year, they do have FA's to sign. But it wasn't an awful move, as you mention, Chara is a million years old, and their window with him as the cornerstone of their D is closing.

One has to wonder that if the Bruins don't win a Cup this year, will it be a while until they do again? As you said, Chara isn't getting any younger, and they traded away a superstar player in Seguin last year. That cap penalty may prevent them from making certain moves regarding player signings.

 

[IcedCapp]

One has to wonder that if the Bruins don't win a Cup this year, will it be a while until they do again? As you said, Chara isn't getting any younger, and they traded away a superstar player in Seguin last year. That cap penalty may prevent them from making certain moves regarding player signings.

they are ridiculously young on the back end and have the pieces to make some moves if needed. Their window won't be near closed, imo

 

[Crosbyfan]

I actually quite like Bylsma but I do subscribe to the notion that every coach has a shelf life. Is his up? Maybe but I don't think so, but that's just me. For his strengths and his flaws though they're all meaningless when you don't have strong goaltending, and by which I mean mentally strong. Every team plays worse when they don't believe in their goaltender and I can't imagine this group feels any other way than unconfident.

I think he is as much to blame as Fleury. Being a Fleury apologist, talking about him as an elite goalie, and playing him until the suckitude is just so overwhelming that he has no choice to pull him has not helped Fleury cope.

 

[billybudd]

I have yet to see what the actual penalty part is? As far as I can tell the amount that will be added to the Bruins payroll for next year as belonging to this one is equal to what they will be exceeding this years cap with. I am not being adamant about this, because I simply don't know, but that is what the numbers suggest to me.

If that is indeed so, there is little to prevent the Bruins from making similar incentive laden contracts next season and push such "penalties" in perpetuity until they either see players not making their bonuses; have ELC players to replace higher paid players with, or simply reach the end of a window and take a re-boot year.

As such I agree that Boston are likely closer to that situation than we are, what with Chara being a million years old, but unless there are actual PENALTIES, and not just deferred salary, I would suggest that Chiarelli just found a very nice legal way to game the system. One we could have also exploited if he had so desired.

Again, if you can tell me what the actual penalty part is here... I could reconsider, but as far as I can see a 4.5 million penalty with Iginla getting 4.2 million more than his cap-hit and Krug making bonuses also, there doesn't really seem to be any.

If you have a twitter account, that's probably a question you'll want to ask the guy that runs capgeek. I've never asked him anything, but he tweets about that stuff all the time. There's a good chance he'll get back to you.

What I can tell you just by looking at what he has on the site is that the actual year-end overage seems closer to $2 million on Iginla's contract. Not the $4.5 million figure the Boston Globe came up with.

 

[billybudd]

It breaks down as follows to my understanding:

1.8 mil base salary / cap hit 2013-14
4.2 mil in bonuses that are deferred to 2014-15 cap for Boston
.3 mil in penalty for this "roll forward"

So next year Iggy will count 4.5 mil towards their cap, 300k more than his total compensation over those two years.

The way the deal is structured is predicated on his age somehow.

This puts Boston in a bit of a bind next year, they do have FA's to sign. But it wasn't an awful move, as you mention, Chara is a million years old, and their window with him as the cornerstone of their D is closing.

That was my first thought, but CapGeek has them 2 million under the cap I'm guessing because of Seidenberg. The Globe article came long after Seidenberg went down for the year.

I really think this is probably a question for the proprietor of capgeek.

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

God damn it I'm so freaking jealous of how well prepared, motivated and coached the bruins are.

When I see Bylsma's stupid face today I'm going to want to puke.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

God damn it I'm so freaking jealous of how well prepared, motivated and coached the bruins are.

When I see Bylsma's stupid face today I'm going to want to puke.

It must be that vet laden blueline of theirs...

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

God damn it I'm so freaking jealous of how well prepared, motivated and coached the bruins are.

When I see Bylsma's stupid face today I'm going to want to puke.

It's night and day compared to the Pens. This is exactly why I can't stand it when people absolve Bylsma of blame for how the Pens look.

The structure of the Bruins is so damn impressive. In comparison, the Pens look like they've picked up a 1980's playbook.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It's night and day compared to the Pens. This is exactly why I can't stand it when people absolve Bylsma of blame for how the Pens look.

The structure of the Bruins is so damn impressive. In comparison, the Pens look like they've picked up a 1980's playbook.

the Penguins do not look like they have ever seen anything resembling a playbook