Alex Ovechkin hits 700 career NHL goals!

[artempogba]

Yes or no? Will Ovechkin surpass Esposito (717) by the end of this season? 5 weeks, 15 games left. 13 more goals needed.

No

 

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

NHL 500+ GOAL-SCORERS WHO HAD MORE GOALS THAN ASSISTS

01. Brett Hull – 741 Goals; 650 Assists; 1391 Points
02. Mike Gartner – 708 Goals; 627 Assists; 1335 Points
03. Alex Ovechkin – 705 Goals; 571 Assists; 1276 Points
04. Bobby Hull – 610 Goals; 560 Assists; 1170 Points
05. Dino Ciccarelli – 608 Goals; 592 Assists; 1200 Points
06. Mike Bossy – 573 Goals; 553 Assists; 1126 Points
07. Joe Nieuwendyk – 564 Goals; 562 Assists; 1126 Points
08. Maurice Richard – 544 Goals; 422 Assists; 966 Points
09. Keith Tkachuk – 538 Goals; 527 Assists; 1065 Points
10. Peter Bondra – 503 Goals; 389 Assists; 892 Points

 

[Sentinel]

I don't know. Wayno doesn't agree with you:



Why didn't he torch goalies in the 90s, again?
Also, omg does Grezky look ancient in this vid.

Quoting Gretzky is a really bad idea. His humility was downright ridiculous sometimes. He thought Mike Comrie was better than himself.

 

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

You can't be serious. Did you see the goalies of the 80s? LOL

It's like the goaltenders were all afraid to get down on both knees to stop a shot from going in. So many goals scored on goalies in the stand-up position.

 

[Sentinel]

92-93 is not in the 80s and Selänne was ahead of Gretzky and Lemieux that year.

Because neither of them were in their peak form. Post-Suter Gretzky and post-cancer Lemieux. As terrific as Selanne was, he was not the God these two were.

To reiterate what others said: there is no way in hell 80s-90s Ovechkin plays his entire career injury free. I don't care if he is built like a tank. So were Lindros and Forsberg. There was price on their heads and sooner or later someone would catch him off guard or slash him or submarine him or knee him. Scoring goals now is a picnic compared to what Howe, Esposito, Bossy, and Bure had to go through to put up their numbers.

 

[Sentinel]

Good points, and I agree that people should just appreciate talent more than we do. Team or era allegiances aside, if you're a fan of hockey you should be a fan of greatness because it's rare to see some of these guys make fellow professionals look like beer leaguers.

That said, to your point about physicality, Ovi is 6'3" and 240 pounds... so the punishment would have gone both ways. Ovechkin is a mack truck and can also throw hands. He's missed about 15 games his entire career due to injury. Simply put, the dude is a mutant. An angry Ovi is the best Ovi.

Also, especially in the 80's but somewhat in the 90's as well, teams carried players on their rosters whose entire job was to ensure the stars could be stars. The depth of the league was much worse so plugs earned spots simply to be deterrents which is not the case today.

I have two issues with your otherwise solid post. No way Ovechkin only misses 15 games in 15 seasons in the 80s-90s. Sure, he can dish them out as well as take them, but how often does he have to endure crosschecking to the face, knee slashing, and submarining? Never.

And I don't think the depth is better now than it was then. There were 21 teams, not 31. Today's Detroit is hardly better than the Dead Wings.

 

[Sentinel]

This is a flawed argument and has been addressed many times before. Regardless of how talented someone like Roy was, advancements in goaltending equipment and techniques have made it so that the average goalie today is more likely to stop any given shot than Patrick Roy at his best. It doesn't make them "better", but they are harder to score on. Subjective appeals to things like "80s assassins" don't change the fact that we have hard statistical evidence from both eras that it was substantially easier for every player to put the puck in the net back then, regardless of your perceived greatness of the defensemen and goalies of that era.

I don't buy this for a minute. The price players had to pay to score goals was much higher than it is now. Ask Mike Bossy's back, Pavel Bure's knees, or Paul Kariya's nose.

As for today's goalies being better: since the lockout there have been only two goaltenders who won both a Stanley Cup and a Vezina: Thomas and Holtby. Neither of them makes the HHOF. That's all you need to know about today's goaltenders.

"My perceived greatness"... let me know when Keith, Karlsson, Doughty, or Hedman replace Bourque, Chelios, and Fetisov on the all-time list. Lidstrom on his last legs beat all the best post-lockout defensemen for the Norris.

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

Quoting Gretzky is a really bad idea. His humility was downright ridiculous sometimes. He thought Mike Comrie was better than himself.

That is true. Gretzky said he was never injured, but yet he played the 2nd half of his career on a bad back and arthritis. Just too humble. Had he stayed healthy like Ovi we wouldn't even be discussing Ovi catching him.

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

Because neither of them were in their peak form. Post-Suter Gretzky and post-cancer Lemieux. As terrific as Selanne was, he was not the God these two were.

To reiterate what others said: there is no way in hell 80s-90s Ovechkin plays his entire career injury free. I don't care if he is built like a tank. So were Lindros and Forsberg. There was price on their heads and sooner or later someone would catch him off guard or slash him or submarine him or knee him. Scoring goals now is a picnic compared to what Howe, Esposito, Bossy, and Bure had to go through to put up their numbers.

Agreed, the sport isn't nearly as rough today as it was back then. Gretzky and all those guys took more shots than people realize. Goal tending may be better today but so is equipment, training, dieting, etc.

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

706 tonight. I admit that I don't want him catching 894. I grew up a fan of #99. He got me interested in the sport so I admit to being a bit of a Homer.

 

[AD1066]

I don't buy this for a minute. The price players had to pay to score goals was much higher than it is now. Ask Mike Bossy's back, Pavel Bure's knees, or Paul Kariya's nose.

As for today's goalies being better: since the lockout there have been only two goaltenders who won both a Stanley Cup and a Vezina: Thomas and Holtby. Neither of them makes the HHOF. That's all you need to know about today's goaltenders.

"My perceived greatness"... let me know when Keith, Karlsson, Doughty, or Hedman replace Bourque, Chelios, and Fetisov on the all-time list. Lidstrom on his last legs beat all the best post-lockout defensemen for the Norris.

Patrick Roy is both a better and a greater goalie than Tukka Rask.
Tukka Rask is more likely to stop a shot than Patrick Roy ever was.
Both these things can be true.

Today's goalies are harder to score on due to advancements in both equipment and technique. This doesn't detract from the legends of the past or displace them in all-time rankings. But a puck shot at the net back then, was simply more likely to go in, regardless of how you attempt to quantify things like physical risk or injuries to skaters. It's not really a coincidence that 8 of the highest 13 scoring players of all-time were born in the 12 year span from 1960-1972. They entered their primes in an era that was incredibly favorable to putting up points and breaking records.

I've been a Wings fan for many years, I know how great Lidstrom was (although his last Norris was more of a reputation award). But if playing against legendary defensemen and goalies had much as an effect as you think it does, why was scoring a full 30% higher in the 1980s? Are players today simply worse than they were 40 years ago? Or could it be due to increased parity between skaters, a larger global talent pool, better defensive systems, better goaltending equipment and techniques, and a salary cap limiting the potential dynasties-- things we can both measure the effects of quantitatively and also compare via the eye test? It feels like you're disregarding the simplest explanation for things in favor of a narrative that elevates what I would assume are the idols of your past.

 

[Midnight Judges]

That is true. Gretzky said he was never injured, but yet he played the 2nd half of his career on a bad back and arthritis. Just too humble. Had he stayed healthy like Ovi we wouldn't even be discussing Ovi catching him.

Ovie has played through several injuries. Wrists, shoulders, knees. Any time he scored less than 45, there were injuries.

 

[TheAngryHank]

Didn't he tie Dri for the league lead in goals tonight?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Tonight's was a beauty IMO. Ovie had to fish the puck out from a group, drag around a defender, then shoot from between three defenders. It all happens in like 2 seconds. Goalie had no chance. Nobody stops this.

 

[CartographerNo611]

Ovie has played through several injuries. Wrists, shoulders, knees. Any time he scored less than 45, there were injuries.

2010-2013 was Hal Gill being the only player watching video and stopping Ovies deke to the inside and then shoot play with Halak twisting the dagger in his heart during playoffs. Doctors diagnosed it as Gillak disease.

 

[Zuluss]

2010-2013 was Hal Gill being the only player watching video

I'd bet he was watching video after OV used him as a stick to score a goal

 

[Acallabeth]

And I don't think the depth is better now than it was then. There were 21 teams, not 31. Today's Detroit is hardly better than the Dead Wings.

Top level talent is honestly a matter of personal preference, but it's hard not to see that today's average player is easily superior in his ability than in the 80s.
Larger league, yes, but with a much much greater pool of European and US players (there were like 50 non-US players in 1985), most of whom are brought to the NHL to be above average players.

 

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

I guess this means Ovechkin won't be surpassing Gartner this season!!

 

[Beukeboom]

92-93 is not in the 80s and Selänne was ahead of Gretzky and Lemieux that year.

I mean he had seven more goals than Lemieux in 24 more games. So saying he was a better goalscorer is not only a stretch, it's untrue. Lemieux's 69 in 60 games equaled a 97 goal pace in 84 games.

Lemieux was way ahead of anyone as a goalscorer that season.

 

[Panda Bear]

Games missed due to lockouts: 116
Potential games missed due to Covid-19: 11
Career goals per game: 0.613

Expected goals missing: 77

Dude could have been at 783 by now.

 

[Beukeboom]

Games missed due to lockouts: 116
Potential games missed due to Covid-19: 11
Career goals per game: 0.613

Expected goals missing: 77

Dude could have been at 783 by now.

It's not as simple as that. Guys come back with higher ppgs after lock outs and getting som much needed rest. That has been the case after every lock out. It exploded in 95-96 and also after the 04 one (definately partly due to rule changes, and let's not pretend those rule changes didn't boost Ovie's gpg.)

Ovie had two full seasons in a row with 32 and 38 goals before the last lock out, which then completely rejuvenated him, and to extrapolate his career gpg on a rookie season that would have been when he was 19 doesn't work either.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I don't buy this for a minute. The price players had to pay to score goals was much higher than it is now. Ask Mike Bossy's back, Pavel Bure's knees, or Paul Kariya's nose.

As for today's goalies being better: since the lockout there have been only two goaltenders who won both a Stanley Cup and a Vezina: Thomas and Holtby. Neither of them makes the HHOF. That's all you need to know about today's goaltenders.

"My perceived greatness"... let me know when Keith, Karlsson, Doughty, or Hedman replace Bourque, Chelios, and Fetisov on the all-time list. Lidstrom on his last legs beat all the best post-lockout defensemen for the Norris.

I'd argue that pretty much all of these injuries had nothing to do with the price of scoring goals and everything to do with untalented goons taking advantage of non-existent rules with abjectly dirty play. The difference with Ovechkin and them is he could dish it out just as well. I have no doubt though that someone would take out his knee repeatedly after he went back to back years scoring 90 goals

Also, the goaltender of the 80's are almost entirely awful and quoting awards doesn't change that; they have to give them to someone.

 

[Kaner9]

Congrats Ovy

 

[Regal]

I'd argue that pretty much all of these injuries had nothing to do with the price of scoring goals and everything to do with untalented goons taking advantage of non-existent rules with abjectly dirty play. The difference with Ovechkin and them is he could dish it out just as well. I have no doubt though that someone would take out his knee repeatedly after he went back to back years scoring 90 goals

Also, the goaltender of the 80's are almost entirely awful and quoting awards doesn't change that; they have to give them to someone.

I wouldn't even say Bure's knees were goon related either. The first ACL injury, Steve Smith hooked him and maybe grabbed his jersey as they went around the net, which was a bit cheap but not particularly nasty, and Bure's leg just got caught behind him the wrong way. It's the type of high speed play around the net toward the boards where the defender makes things worse but it's more of just bad circumstances than anything. It was similar to McDavid's injuries and could definitely still happen today. The second, he just stepped on the puck. I heard his skating stride also put undue stress on his knees but that might not be true. I'm sure some of the cheap shots of the era didn't help, but I think his two biggest injuries are just unfortunate incidents that could have happened in any era. Though I will say Bure could also dish it out when he got mad. He wasn't big but he was solid.

 

[Video Nasty]

I mean he had seven more goals than Lemieux in 24 more games. So saying he was a better goalscorer is not only a stretch, it's untrue. Lemieux's 69 in 60 games equaled a 97 goal pace in 84 games.

Lemieux was way ahead of anyone as a goalscorer that season.

Also of note, Lemieux had a staggering 28 goals on 78 shots (35.9 S%) in his final 15 games (Penguins were 14-0-1, part of their 17 game winning streak and 18 game unbeaten streak to end the season).

He had at least a goal in 11 straight games.

Damn, I wish we’d get a talent that far ahead of the field again.