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I think that he is progressing fine given the minutes and 2nd line duties (more defensive duties). Things will be more clear when he will be playing 1st line center on a full time basis. I have no doubt that his numbers will improve.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Show me a player that had a developpement curve similar to Subban ? You'd be hard pressed to find one per team.. Pacioretty didn't have that, Price didn't develop this way, etc.
Actually, no one aside from Subban on the Habs developped as fast as him.
Look at Price developpement path, or closer to him Pacioretty's. That realistic. (Not so much as to be the uncontested best at his position though.)
WhiskeySeven*
Expect the expected
- Jun 17, 2007
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I listed many top3 forwards who busted out and never looked back from their second season. Yeah no one on the Habs developed as fast as Subban but Chucky was a top3 pick and I compared him to top3 picks across the league. Pacioretty was a bottom first rounder and Price progressed almost exactly as you'd expect a top goalie to progress - I had ZERO doubts about Price and was a staunch member of Team Price, even after Halak's playoffs.
I now know the error of my ways - high standards and buying into (the forum fueled) hype. I shall never, ever criticize the team darling again lest I be nipped at over-and-over.
I'm looking forward to his progression and want nothing more than for Chucky to burst out and take over games from next season on.
I understand your concerns, but don't you want to wait and see how he will perform playing 1st line minutes at center alongside Pacioretty full time before pressing the panic button.
Natey
GOATS
- Aug 2, 2005
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Well, he's tied 83rd in the league for ES scoring among forwards. There is technically 120 Top-6 players.
Galchenyuk (34 points) is in the company of;
Claude Giroux (34 points)
Phil Kessel (34 points)
Loui Eriksson (34 points)
Jaromir Jagr (34 points)
David Desharnais (35 points)
Thomas Vanek (35 points)
Henrik Zetterberg (35 points)
James van Riemsdyk (35 points)
Martin St. Louis (36 points)
Jason Spezza (36 points)
Erick Staal (36 points)
Pavel Datysuk (37 points)
Not bad, I'd say. When you factor in our system that doesn't really promote an offensive attitude, I'd say he's doing just fine.
Andrei79
Registered User
- Jan 25, 2013
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Which 3rd overall picks are you comparing him to?
Duchene and Toews? Because there aren't any others in the last ten years that developped any faster or better. That's besides the point, every draft's strength is different, compare Galchenyuk to the two in front of him and he looks pretty good. He's the guy who's scored most points in the NHL up to now for the '12 draft.
You had zero doubts about Price yet when you compare his NHL start to other top goaltenders who's talent he was compared to like Lundqvist, Luongo, Brodeur and even Rask it looked pretty bad. There were some serious doubts and the same argument you're using against Galchenyuk could be used against Price at the time... I mean he did lose his job to a 9th round pick. But you had zero doubts om him because well... what exactly? So you're being disingeneous here as Price did not at all follow the typical path, you simply liked him and decided to ignore whatever evidence didn't match... which is fine, Price passed the eye test (like Galchenyuk), had all the tools (like Galchenyuk), and every player develops differently, which might be a difficult concept to understand for you, but that's widely understood and not just in sports, but in human development in general. There's no set guideline for top offensive players and if there were, scouting would be useless.
Finally, it's a good thing you're bringing Pacioretty into the discussion as he's the 2nd/3rd best forward of his draft and he wasn't anywhere near what Galchenyuk is at the same age.
Every minute of ice time Galchenyuk spends on the wing, is just delaying any possibility of him ever being a high end center in the NHL.
I don't even see how anyone can argue this.
And to watch the team gift wrap prime center minutes to Desharnais, after calling Galchenyuk a center for the last 3 years, is maddening and bizarre.
I don't even see how anyone can argue this.
And to watch the team gift wrap prime center minutes to Desharnais, after calling Galchenyuk a center for the last 3 years, is maddening and bizarre.
Even though we seem to be on the same side of this debate, that is completely irrelevant. I made this point earlier, but its not like he becomes a different player if he were drafted 15th. Maybe he has different opportunities afforded to him given the same performance (maybe), but he's still the same player, with the same talent. Therefore, it makes sense to compare him to forwards his age, not just forwards drafted at the 3rd overall position. If we do that, we see that Galchenyuk is doing very well, and better than many forwards who went on to be among the league's elite. Far better, in some cases.
Incidentally, Whiskey did compare Galchenyuk to Andrei Kostitsyn, not once, but twice, which is hilarious. I thought it was worth repeating.
Natey
GOATS
- Aug 2, 2005
- 62,327
- 8,500
Tyler Seguin played on a team with 2 top 30 centers.
As well as a solid 3rd line center.
He played on the wing because the team recognized that he was a young player with high end offensive skill, and they were better served finding top 6 minutes for him.
So, what was your point in bringing up Seguin?
That one player, on a team with 2 elite centers, spent a couple seasons on the wing and his career wasn't ruined?
No one is saying Galchenyuks' career is ruined.
Nor is anyone saying that he can't become a high end center in the NHL because he's played on the wing.
What we are saying, is that he cannot, and will not, develop as a high end center while playing on the wing.
I'd just like to point out that Galchenyuk is developing faster than PK did as well, a lot faster in fact. Oh, I know, I know, ''defensemen take longer to develop'' but it's simply not true that Galchenyuk isn't developing as fast as Subban was. If Galchenyuk were doing as well as Subban was in 2009-2010, could you imagine this board right now? Galchenyuk looking promising in a 2 game callup? Trade the bum!
Yeah, it's a hell of a lot easier to develop as a winger in the NHL than as a d-man, not sure it's any revelation that Galchenyuk is ahead of Subbans' development curve.
Yeah, but since this is not some revelation, it'd be lovely to hear how people are saying that Subban developed faster than Galchenyuk. There'd have to be some sort of conversion factor, which would likely bring the lulz.
WhiskeySeven*
Expect the expected
- Jun 17, 2007
- 25,154
- 770
Do you really want me to bring up every top3 forward drafted in the past decade? It won't look favorably upon Chucky - you can look for yourself like 7 pages past.
"Hall, Seguin, Nugent-Hopkins, Landeskog, MacKinnon, Tavares, Duchene, Stamkos, Kane, Toews all hit 50 points within TWO seasons. 10 players had clearly superior trajectories." And that is not counting Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin or stud D-men. Or players picked at #4 like Ry Jo.
Goalies take longer to develop, and Price had good performances from the get-go playing behind a very weak defense, even his "bad" games were played behind the trash-black-hole-of-talent pairing of Bouillon and Dandenault in a garbage system and team that had no clue how to show up to games consistently.
I had no doubts about Price because he was so young and goalies developed so late.
If you guys will claim that context matters with Chucky, then clearly context also matters when comparing Chucky and Price. Price is a superstar who is entering his prime exactly when he should be - Galchenyuk is much more of an unknown quantity.
I did, and I will continue to do so until he proves me otherwise. His trajectory has fallen, just like Andrei's did. Andrei's the only other top skater pick we've had in modern times so naturally I'll compare the two, especially when they've both been inconsistent players early in their careers.
What are you talking about?
Subban was older when he came into the league - yes. But within 12 games he was a top4 defenseman and within ~35 he was a top pairing player. And defenseman (and defensive players) develop differently and affect the game differently - it's why people don't really care if DLR scores and are excited for his future, but are more down on Christian Thomas' for the same reason.
Chucky still can't play centre, much less number 1 centre. You come across as impressively biased and silly.
And this year Nathan Mackinnon won't even hit 45 points.
Does that mean he's a bust? or trending downwards?
As someone pointed out, Galchenyuks ESP has him in line with some pretty damn good players.
Plus he missed a developmental year in junior.
He had a sophomore slump last season. He'll come close to hitting 50 points this year. He's already hit 20 goals.
Your concerns about his development are quite clearly way overblown.
It's one of the "downsides" to so many players emergin at a high level at a young age, is that some fans jump ove rthemselves to declare anyone who doesn't immediatley break out as a "bust".
I'm looking forward to seeing how Galchenyuk develops in the next few years, I was excited when they drafted him and my excitement hasn't waned at all.
Landeskog had a worse second season than Galchenyuk did.
Duchene was under .5 PPG in his THIRD season.
Tavares, Stamkos, and Kane were all 1st overall picks who were touted as franchise players before they were even drafted. Is it really the end of the world that Galchenyuks' development isn't on par with them?
Does that mean he's a bust? or trending downwards?
As someone pointed out, Galchenyuks ESP has him in line with some pretty damn good players.
Plus he missed a developmental year in junior.
He had a sophomore slump last season. He'll come close to hitting 50 points this year. He's already hit 20 goals.
Your concerns about his development are quite clearly way overblown.
It's one of the "downsides" to so many players emergin at a high level at a young age, is that some fans jump ove rthemselves to declare anyone who doesn't immediatley break out as a "bust".
I'm looking forward to seeing how Galchenyuk develops in the next few years, I was excited when they drafted him and my excitement hasn't waned at all.
Landeskog had a worse second season than Galchenyuk did.
Duchene was under .5 PPG in his THIRD season.
Tavares, Stamkos, and Kane were all 1st overall picks who were touted as franchise players before they were even drafted. Is it really the end of the world that Galchenyuks' development isn't on par with them?
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WhiskeySeven*
Expect the expected
- Jun 17, 2007
- 25,154
- 770
Do we really have to go over it? When players hit X# of points, they're usually known as X-point players. It's Mackinnon is a ****ing STUD on a bad team that trended downward, one season could be an aberration but if he has a bad season next year too, then yes, we can have doubts.
Stop saying bust, no one says bust seriously. It's a ****** strawman.
And stop bringing up the year he missed - everyone deals with injuries and it happened 4 years ago. Too bad. It's no excuse for why he's not playing centre THIS year or why his game hasn't changed at all since his rookie year or why from year 2 to year 3 his game has relatively stagnated.
Yeah it is one of the "downsides"... I compare out top picks with successful top picks! What a tragedy! How dare I have high standards for the best team in hockey history and its players. I should treat this team like an expansion, budget team and temper my expectations because **** ambition.
You're right, Therrien is a good enough coach - we're lucky to be where we are. and Bergevin is doing the best he can, so we shouldn't doubt him. And Chucky is as good as he can possibly be, he can't possibly play better than he is right now, so we should all be on our knees when he enters the room.
No it isn't, and I never said it was. I was defending my arguments like a good poster would and you guys all take it personally for some reason.
I'm not going to throw **** out there and then disappear when people disagree - we're here to have conversations.
Rock On
Registered User
No it's not.
I'll be concerned if by the end of season 2016-2017 he's not at Max's level (different kind of player I know)
I'll be concerned if by the end of season 2016-2017 he's not at Max's level (different kind of player I know)
Your histrionics on the topic aside, it's quite clear that you are basing your assessment on Galchenyusk' development as "lacking" by comparing him to stars in the league....but at the same time you're also ignoring that some of those stars didn't have a seamless transition to be where they are today.
Galchenyuk is 21 years old and is in his 3rd season in the NHL. He has his first 20 goal season in his career, and he continues to be far and away the most creative player on this team.
Why the need (other than to prove some point) to constantly compare him to other players?
Anyone who ever said he was going to be the next Johnathan Toews or John Tavares was talking out of their ass anyways.
He came into camp this year a lot stronger than last year. While we didn't see that big jump in offensive production we might have hoped for, his season is definitely a big improvement over last season.
He is trending in the right direction.
I'd like to see him playing center, makes no sense to me to keep him on the wing...but it's not the end of the world.
You say you are defending your argument, but what is your argument?
That Galchenyuk isn't going to be the next Kane or Toews?
Fascinating argument.
If Galchenyuk can develop into a 30 goal threat who plays a solid 2 way game and can make the transition to center than the habs are going to be a very lucky team for the next decade.
Comparing him to other stars he's lagging behind (all the while ignoring that quite often those stars struggled to find that second or third gear offensively, just like Galchenyuk has to date) doesn't really accomplish, prove, or indicate anything.
I think that many people last year felt Galchenyuk needed to dramatically improve his strength to be a better player.
I think he did that in a big way.
Right now I think most would probably say his biggest issues are his foot speed and his shooting accuracy.
Are either of those things something that you feel an NHL player can't improve upon?
Quite the opposite for me.
As long as he keeps working hard and strives to be a better player he is going to improve and the team is going to benefit.
You will never be happy with Galchenyuk because you've created a narrative in your mind, and that narrative is that he does not compare to some other high picked stars in the NHL.
That's a fact.
Galchenyuk is 21 years old and is in his 3rd season in the NHL. He has his first 20 goal season in his career, and he continues to be far and away the most creative player on this team.
Why the need (other than to prove some point) to constantly compare him to other players?
Anyone who ever said he was going to be the next Johnathan Toews or John Tavares was talking out of their ass anyways.
He came into camp this year a lot stronger than last year. While we didn't see that big jump in offensive production we might have hoped for, his season is definitely a big improvement over last season.
He is trending in the right direction.
I'd like to see him playing center, makes no sense to me to keep him on the wing...but it's not the end of the world.
You say you are defending your argument, but what is your argument?
That Galchenyuk isn't going to be the next Kane or Toews?
Fascinating argument.
If Galchenyuk can develop into a 30 goal threat who plays a solid 2 way game and can make the transition to center than the habs are going to be a very lucky team for the next decade.
Comparing him to other stars he's lagging behind (all the while ignoring that quite often those stars struggled to find that second or third gear offensively, just like Galchenyuk has to date) doesn't really accomplish, prove, or indicate anything.
I think that many people last year felt Galchenyuk needed to dramatically improve his strength to be a better player.
I think he did that in a big way.
Right now I think most would probably say his biggest issues are his foot speed and his shooting accuracy.
Are either of those things something that you feel an NHL player can't improve upon?
Quite the opposite for me.
As long as he keeps working hard and strives to be a better player he is going to improve and the team is going to benefit.
You will never be happy with Galchenyuk because you've created a narrative in your mind, and that narrative is that he does not compare to some other high picked stars in the NHL.
That's a fact.
Yeah, it'd just be great if you went further in your comparison to realize that it would be the end of NEXT season before Andrei finally broke into the NHL, so people didn't have to accidentally read this drivel anymore.
Andrei Kostitsyn's trajectory has much more in common with Charles Hudon's, except Hudon is better defensively. Which player do you think is developing better: Charles Hudon or Alex Galchenyuk?
It's simply not true that Subban developed faster than Galchenyuk.
See. And it's not close either.
None of this makes it true that Chuck has developed slower than Subban.
Actually I come off as not having a single one of my points refuted, currently.
The guy is on the 2nd line on a defense first team and still putting up around 50pts playing a two-way role in the lowest scoring season I can remember. But that won't ever be enough to convince some people he's good, he has to basically get 80pts despite having none of the advantages a guy like Seguin for example has to convince some people 
Galchenyuk isn't playing with Benn. So expecting him to produce like a guy on Dallas a high scoring team with offensive juggernauts does is ridiculous. That's basically the expectation you must have if you're disappointed with him, that he would be a 70pt guy despite Therrien playing him as a 2nd line winger.
Can't wait until a few years down the road when some folks are going to look back on this thread and feel really stupid. It isn't like it takes a genius to tell just by watching him play that he's going to be a keeper. If you're putting up 50~ pts as a second liner in your early twenties on a defensive team like ours... if that doesn't convince you nothing short of the guy getting 90pts ever will.
Galchenyuk isn't playing with Benn. So expecting him to produce like a guy on Dallas a high scoring team with offensive juggernauts does is ridiculous. That's basically the expectation you must have if you're disappointed with him, that he would be a 70pt guy despite Therrien playing him as a 2nd line winger.Can't wait until a few years down the road when some folks are going to look back on this thread and feel really stupid. It isn't like it takes a genius to tell just by watching him play that he's going to be a keeper. If you're putting up 50~ pts as a second liner in your early twenties on a defensive team like ours... if that doesn't convince you nothing short of the guy getting 90pts ever will.
FlyingKostitsyn
Registered User
Toews, Bergeron and Kopitar are 3 of the best 2 way centers in the league.
Maybe Galchenyuk can develop into that kind of player, I'm not writing it off, but if he doesn't it won't be the end of the world either.
Maybe Galchenyuk can develop into that kind of player, I'm not writing it off, but if he doesn't it won't be the end of the world either.
You are totally right my friend. But I think it's more realistic to expect this kind of development for Chucky. I don't think he becomes a PPG+ offensive monster. And actually a good 65-70 pts two way center is what we need!
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