Confirmed with Link: Albany Devils moving to Binghamton, NY

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Based on the idea that putting a Devils minor league team in the middle of Ranger country is not a promising proposition.

I also think it would help build the fanbase for the big club if it was placed within a traditional battleground area, where both Devil fans and Rag fans live, within the state.

you do know that Trenton/AC are firmly in Flyers country

right?

 

[thecoffeecake]

you do know that Trenton/AC are firmly in Flyers country

right?

I wonder how many times I can have this conversation today. Trenton is in no way firmly Flyers country. How often do Devils fans in North Jersey venture south of Prudential Center?

I've made this point elsewhere; the Lakewood BlueClaws, as a Phillies affiliate, break attendance records in northern Ocean County, which is Yankees/Mets territory. The team can be re-branded to work in areas like Trenton and AC (Trenton is split, so calling them the Devils alienates a lot of people there, despite not being "firmly" Flyers), while also helping grow the brand and fan base in other parts of the state. Again, I think fans as the consumers of this product should expect the Devils to be investing in our state, for the sake of everyone involved.

 

[Triumph]

This idea that your farm team should be where your actual team has a fanbase is largely for the birds. The Devils are just never going to have a large enough reach to where they can put a team in their 'territory' without potentially cannibalizing their fanbase. They probably have the smallest regional footprint in the NHL - maybe Ottawa or the Islanders is smaller.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Trenton is 1000000% Flyers country. Theres not really an argument otherwise.

 

[DatBoyJPP]

I wonder how many times I can have this conversation today. Trenton is in no way firmly Flyers country. How often do Devils fans in North Jersey venture south of Prudential Center?

I've made this point elsewhere; the Lakewood BlueClaws, as a Phillies affiliate, break attendance records in northern Ocean County, which is Yankees/Mets territory. The team can be re-branded to work in areas like Trenton and AC (Trenton is split, so calling them the Devils alienates a lot of people there, despite not being "firmly" Flyers), while also helping grow the brand and fan base in other parts of the state. Again, I think fans as the consumers of this product should expect the Devils to be investing in our state, for the sake of everyone involved.

Apples and Oranges. The Blueclaws are a Class A team. People go there for cheap family fun, not to see future MLB prospects.

 

[Triumph]

I wonder how many times I can have this conversation today. Trenton is in no way firmly Flyers country. How often do Devils fans in North Jersey venture south of Prudential Center?

I've made this point elsewhere; the Lakewood BlueClaws, as a Phillies affiliate, break attendance records in northern Ocean County, which is Yankees/Mets territory. The team can be re-branded to work in areas like Trenton and AC (Trenton is split, so calling them the Devils alienates a lot of people there, despite not being "firmly" Flyers), while also helping grow the brand and fan base in other parts of the state. Again, I think fans as the consumers of this product should expect the Devils to be investing in our state, for the sake of everyone involved.

You've made this point elsewhere and it wasn't good there either. The Lakewood BlueClaws are an A-ball team. No one cares about regional associations with an A-ball team. You can't rebrand an AHL team to be anything what it is - the equivalent of a AAA team which constantly sees players shuttled to and from the NHL parent club.

 

[devilsblood]

This idea that your farm team should be where your actual team has a fanbase is largely for the birds. The Devils are just never going to have a large enough reach to where they can put a team in their 'territory' without potentially cannibalizing their fanbase. They probably have the smallest regional footprint in the NHL - maybe Ottawa or the Islanders is smaller.

Our footprint is certainly boxed in by Philly and NY.

To make it worse we share the hockey fans within that foot prit with those teams. More so the Rag's but southern jersey I'm sure has it's share of Philly fans.

Thus I think we'd be more likely to win over a larger share of possible Rag fans, not to mention adding potential hockey fans, than we would be cannibalizing our own fan base.

 

[devilsblood]

you do know that Trenton/AC are firmly in Flyers country

right?

Yup, go back and read.

 

[thecoffeecake]

Trenton is 1000000% Flyers country. Theres not really an argument otherwise.

http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/i...he_results_of_the_nj_nhl_fan_border_batt.html

Except for that argument. Springfield is clearly the only town that was spammed by ferocious multiple voting in the Trenton area that plagued the North Jersey portion of this project. Have you ever been to Trenton? I notice Devils fans from North Jersey tend to make assertions about what fans are like in parts of the state they never go to.

 

[Devils Dominion]

It's way off topic to be discussing Trenton (a city that has very few hockey fans in it anyway, but there are Devils fans in Trenton that post here on HF).

As for Binghamton, I see it as a positive venture to have our AHL team there.

It sux for the Albany fans that have supported the team and I really like Albany.

I still don't understand why some people think Binghamton is "rangers country" though.
The rags left that city in the 90s, it's 3-hours away from Manhattan too.

Binghamton is "Binghamton country" IMO.

I hope there is a great synergy between the Devils and the people of Binghamton.
It should be a positive for both parties.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/i...he_results_of_the_nj_nhl_fan_border_batt.html

Except for that argument. Springfield is clearly the only town that was spammed by ferocious multiple voting in the Trenton area that plagued the North Jersey portion of this project. Have you ever been to Trenton? I notice Devils fans from North Jersey tend to make assertions about what fans are like in parts of the state they never go to.

yes, a lot actually. I also lived 20 minutes from Trenton and will be buying a house in Bucks County about 15 minutes from the Sun Center. I know the area well.

 

[Zippy316]

Based on the idea that putting a Devils minor league team in the middle of Ranger country is not a promising proposition.

I also think it would help build the fanbase for the big club if it was placed within a traditional battleground area, where both Devil fans and Rag fans live, within the state.

There is only like 3 arenas in NJ that can seat more 2,000 people -- Prudential Center, the Trenton Arena, and Boardwalk Hall. Trenton could possibly work if it wasn't branded the Devils. Atlantic City has too much of a transient population to likely support a team as well.

There really is no suitable arena in NJ for AHL hockey.

 

[thecoffeecake]

You've made this point elsewhere and it wasn't good there either. The Lakewood BlueClaws are an A-ball team. No one cares about regional associations with an A-ball team. You can't rebrand an AHL team to be anything what it is - the equivalent of a AAA team which constantly sees players shuttled to and from the NHL parent club.

Oh right, that explains why the Capitals affiliate in the middle of Pennsylvania is the most popular and successful AHL franchise. That explains why the WBS Penguins survive where they are, why the BSens were embraced in Binghamton, both the Iowa Cubs and Iowa Wild are successful. These things work consistently, what makes you think putting a team within our own state lines plenty accessible to our fan base would be different? Are you gonna tell me a Devils branded team in Rangers territory is a better gamble than rebranding them within the state somewhere?

 

[Triumph]

Oh right, that explains why the Capitals affiliate in the middle of Pennsylvania is the most popular and successful AHL franchise. That explains why the WBS Penguins survive where they are, why the BSens were embraced in Binghamton, both the Iowa Cubs and Iowa Wild are successful. These things work consistently, what makes you think putting a team within our own state lines plenty accessible to our fan base would be different? Are you gonna tell me a Devils branded team in Rangers territory is a better gamble than rebranding them within the state somewhere?

I can't even tell what you are arguing here. Hershey is way away from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, Wilkes-Barre is a long way away from Philadelphia, and the Iowa Cubs and Iowa Wild are in Iowa, a state without any major league team at all. These cities all have long histories of minor league affiliation, either with baseball or hockey, some of which have switched affiliates constantly. Meanwhile you're arguing in favor of bringing an AHL team into New Jersey, a state with very sharply drawn professional allegiances at the major league level. Are you genuinely arguing that because these teams succeed in these relative backwaters that a team can't help but succeed closer to their parent club? Is that really the argument? If so, it's even worse than I thought.

I would've been in favor of rebranding the A-Devils both when they were brought back to Albany and now with this move to Binghamton. I don't like keeping the Devils name.

 

[thecoffeecake]

There is only like 3 arenas in NJ that can seat more 2,000 people -- Prudential Center, the Trenton Arena, and Boardwalk Hall. Trenton could possibly work if it wasn't branded the Devils. Atlantic City has too much of a transient population to likely support a team as well.

There really is no suitable arena in NJ for AHL hockey.

Off topic, but where exactly are you hearing AC has a transient population? Aside from part time summer populations on the rest of Absecon Island and Brigantine, I'm not sure I'd believe anywhere in the area has much of a transient population. Are you citing that from somewhere?

 

[New Jersey Devils]

Bring back the Boardwalk Bullies!!

 

[Devils Dominion]

I can't even tell what you are arguing here. Hershey is way away from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, Wilkes-Barre is a long way away from Philadelphia, and the Iowa Cubs and Iowa Wild are in Iowa, a state without any major league team at all. These cities all have long histories of minor league affiliation, either with baseball or hockey, some of which have switched affiliates constantly. Meanwhile you're arguing in favor of bringing an AHL team into New Jersey, a state with very sharply drawn professional allegiances at the major league level. Are you genuinely arguing that because these teams succeed in these relative backwaters that a team can't help but succeed closer to their parent club? Is that really the argument? If so, it's even worse than I thought.

I would've been in favor of rebranding the A-Devils both when they were brought back to Albany and now with this move to Binghamton. I don't like keeping the Devils name.

They absolutely should not be using "Devils" in Binghamton.
We've seen that movie fail before twice in Lowell & Albany (And in Trenton too in the ECHL).

They should use a unique name, and have the Devils logo on shoulder patches, just like they did with the River Rats in the 90s.

Give the Bingo fans a unique name that they can call their own.
Their fans will identify and root for their players and prob even follow them up to the NHL when they become Devils.

The "Devils" name unfortunately will alienate a lot of Bingo area fans who already are fans of NHL rival teams such as the Rags.

The Devils name and logo is iconic at the NHL level, it should be not be used in the AHL.

 

[thecoffeecake]

I can't even tell what you are arguing here. Hershey is way away from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, Wilkes-Barre is a long way away from Philadelphia, and the Iowa Cubs and Iowa Wild are in Iowa, a state without any major league team at all. These cities all have long histories of minor league affiliation, either with baseball or hockey, some of which have switched affiliates constantly. Meanwhile you're arguing in favor of bringing an AHL team into New Jersey, a state with very sharply drawn professional allegiances at the major league level. Are you genuinely arguing that because these teams succeed in these relative backwaters that a team can't help but succeed closer to their parent club? Is that really the argument? If so, it's even worse than I thought.

I would've been in favor of rebranding the A-Devils both when they were brought back to Albany and now with this move to Binghamton. I don't like keeping the Devils name.

What you're arguing is that there is causation between the affiliated parent club and local allegiances to major professional sports teams in the area of a major-minor team in regards to how a team is supported. Hershey does an excellent job supporting the Bears despite local allegiances at the NHL level belonging to rival (albeit, not as "rival" as Devils/Flyers/Rangers). Hershey's distance from Philadelphia and Pittsburgh has no effect on how loyal fans are in that area to either team they support (I don't know specifically in Hershey who that is, but I know it isn't the Capitals); their allegiance to either the Flyers or Penguins hasn't affected their support for a team "constantly shuttling players" back and forth to Washington, at least not significantly. This is also true in a place like Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, a Penguins affiliate, where the local allegiances I'm guessing are split between the Flyers and Rangers (just based on knowing the Yankees/Phillies split up there). Again, in Iowa I don't know exactly who the major professional allegiances belong to, although I'm pretty sure it's mostly Chicago fans based on taking a train through Iowa one time, but either way, AAA level teams are supported in Iowa from different sports markets, again denting the argument that major professional allegiances has such an impact on major-minor support that teams can't survive in places their parent club isn't popular. It just isn't the case.

This argument of distance from major professional sports is entirely separate from your original point that affiliation matters greatly in regards to support for major-minor franchises.

The Binghampton Devils, entrenched in Rangers country, will be shuttling players back and forth from Newark. Based on your original point, the BDevils, regardless of what we call it, will not work.

And also a separate point, the BlueClaws have plenty of families that go, yes, but the area is huge on baseball, and people in Yankees and Mets and Phillies gear pack the park every night for the baseball. It's not a typical A-ball environment; a lot of teams in the SAL are similar.

 

[Triumph]

What you're arguing is that there is causation between the affiliated parent club and local allegiances to major professional sports teams in the area of a major-minor team in regards to how a team is supported. Hershey does an excellent job supporting the Bears despite local allegiances at the NHL level belonging to rival (albeit, not as "rival" as Devils/Flyers/Rangers). Hershey's distance from Philadelphia and Pittsburgh has no effect on how loyal fans are in that area to either team they support (I don't know specifically in Hershey who that is, but I know it isn't the Capitals); their allegiance to either the Flyers or Penguins hasn't affected their support for a team "constantly shuttling players" back and forth to Washington, at least not significantly. This is also true in a place like Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, a Penguins affiliate, where the local allegiances I'm guessing are split between the Flyers and Rangers (just based on knowing the Yankees/Phillies split up there). Again, in Iowa I don't know exactly who the major professional allegiances belong to, although I'm pretty sure it's mostly Chicago fans based on taking a train through Iowa one time, but either way, AAA level teams are supported in Iowa from different sports markets, again denting the argument that major professional allegiances has such an impact on major-minor support that teams can't survive in places their parent club isn't popular. It just isn't the case.

This argument of distance from major professional sports is entirely separate from your original point that affiliation matters greatly in regards to support for major-minor franchises.

The argument of distance is the entire argument. Everywhere you've named is a long way away from any major league team. So sure, they get that team on cable television, but the thing they can see live, without taking a day trip? It's minor league sports. That is just not true in this part of the country, and it's not true for any sport in this part of the country. This is a major league area. We've seen minor league baseball repatriate the region in the last 20 years, but it hasn't always been successful, either. In addition, college football and basketball are unpopular here relative to their popularity in most other parts of the country.

The Binghampton Devils, entrenched in Rangers country, will be shuttling players back and forth from Newark. Based on your original point, the BDevils, regardless of what we call it, will not work.

The Binghamton Devils are a long way away from New York City. If you listen to the people who actually know the area, they're saying that the city has a long tradition of minor league hockey. I wish the franchise rebranded but so be it.

And also a separate point, the BlueClaws have plenty of families that go, yes, but the area is huge on baseball, and people in Yankees and Mets and Phillies gear pack the park every night for the baseball. It's not a typical A-ball environment; a lot of teams in the SAL are similar.

Again, it's an A-ball franchise, and also the separation of leagues helps a bit too. Philadelphia's team is not a rival with the New York Yankees.

 

[DatBoyJPP]

They absolutely should not be using "Devils" in Binghamton.
We've seen that movie fail before twice in Lowell & Albany (And in Trenton too in the ECHL).

They should use a unique name, and have the Devils logo on shoulder patches, just like they did with the River Rats in the 90s.

Give the Bingo fans a unique name that they can call their own.
Their fans will identify and root for their players and prob even follow them up to the NHL when they become Devils.

The "Devils" name unfortunately will alienate a lot of Bingo area fans who already are fans of NHL rival teams such as the Rags.

The Devils name and logo is iconic at the NHL level, it should be not be used in the AHL.

The reason the Devils failed a lot in the AHL is because Lou put out a bunch of talentless teams that no one wanted to watch. It has nothing to do with the team name

 

[thecoffeecake]

You've made this point elsewhere and it wasn't good there either. The Lakewood BlueClaws are an A-ball team. No one cares about regional associations with an A-ball team. You can't rebrand an AHL team to be anything what it is - the equivalent of a AAA team which constantly sees players shuttled to and from the NHL parent club.

Tri, this was your original argument that I was addressing. The fact that we live in a pro sports area or minor league sports do better further from major markets wasn't your point until you argued after I countered your argument here. Focus up.

Yes, you're right that this is definitely a pro sports area, but that doesn't mean minor league sports don't work here. A lot of teams have failed, but again, teams like the BlueClaws are evidence that it can succeed wildly here. The Boardwalk Bullies drew as well as the Albany Devils and Binghampton Senators when they were around, and that was for an ECHL team. None of what you are saying holds up.

Another incorrect point about Lakewood. Everyone in the area embraces them; Mets fans, Yankees fans, Phillies fans. Head out to a game and you see more Mets stuff than anything these last few years (besides BlueClaws apparel). I have never heard a Mets fan say that they don't support the BlueClaws because they are a Phillies affiliate. If they were the Lakewood Phillies, that would be a totally different story, because like Binghampton people have said, they aren't going to buy merchandise branded from a rival team.

 

[Colin226]

yes, a lot actually. I also lived 20 minutes from Trenton and will be buying a house in Bucks County about 15 minutes from the Sun Center. I know the area well.

Just my 2 cents here.. I went to TCNJ and I never felt like the Flyers were the dominant team in the area. To me, it felt like a 40% Devils, 40% Flyers, and 20% Rangers split overall - give or take 5% to any one group. Always a good amount of Devils fans waiting for the train north at Hamilton Station, with a couple Rangers fans if they were playing. At the local bars, they'd have either the Devils or Flyers on TV depending on who was playing (or which was the better match up). Alstarz in Bordentown (just south of Trenton) always had the Devils on TV before we got there. And the bars/restaurants in the area didn't have up Flyers/Philly stuff all around like you see a lot in south jersey.

During the last lockout, my wife and I went to the Trenton Titans home opener and it was a very even crowd. People were starved for hockey so it brought a lot of folks out.

Atlantic City though, I fully agree, is Flyers country. They don't get Devils games on TV and it's much easier to go to Philly games there. It helps that Mercer County gets both NY and Philly stations so it creates a more even split.

 

[Devils Dominion]

Tri, this was your original argument that I was addressing. The fact that we live in a pro sports area or minor league sports do better further from major markets wasn't your point until you argued after I countered your argument here. Focus up.

Yes, you're right that this is definitely a pro sports area, but that doesn't mean minor league sports don't work here. A lot of teams have failed, but again, teams like the BlueClaws are evidence that it can succeed wildly here. The Boardwalk Bullies drew as well ,,,,as the Albany Devils and Binghampton Senators when they were around, and that was for an ECHL team. None of what you are saying holds up.

Another incorrect point about Lakewood. Everyone in the area embraces them; Mets fans, Yankees fans, Phillies fans. Head out to a game and you see more Mets stuff than anything these last few years (besides BlueClaws apparel). I have never heard a Mets fan say that they don't support the BlueClaws because they are a Phillies affiliate. If they were the Lakewood Phillies, that would be a totally different story, because like Binghampton people have said, they aren't going to buy merchandise branded from a rival team.

Binghamton

Not Binghampton

 

[Triumph]

Tri, this was your original argument that I was addressing. The fact that we live in a pro sports area or minor league sports do better further from major markets wasn't your point until you argued after I countered your argument here. Focus up.

You're not very good at this. Do you honestly think those aren't my opinions? Where are minor league teams located, historically?

Yes, you're right that this is definitely a pro sports area, but that doesn't mean minor league sports don't work here. A lot of teams have failed, but again, teams like the BlueClaws are evidence that it can succeed wildly here. The Boardwalk Bullies drew as well as the Albany Devils and Binghampton Senators when they were around, and that was for an ECHL team. None of what you are saying holds up.

What are you talking about? The Boardwalk Bullies are gone. They were there for 4 years. Are you really saying that because Atlantic City drew for 2 AHL games 5 years ago that that shows the team could succeed there? Probably.

Another incorrect point about Lakewood. Everyone in the area embraces them; Mets fans, Yankees fans, Phillies fans. Head out to a game and you see more Mets stuff than anything these last few years (besides BlueClaws apparel). I have never heard a Mets fan say that they don't support the BlueClaws because they are a Phillies affiliate. If they were the Lakewood Phillies, that would be a totally different story, because like Binghampton people have said, they aren't going to buy merchandise branded from a rival team.

Terrific. As I explained already, they are an A-ball team that plays a different, far more popular, sport.

 

[thecoffeecake]

You're not very good at this. Do you honestly think those aren't my opinions? Where are minor league teams located, historically?



What are you talking about? The Boardwalk Bullies are gone. They were there for 4 years. Are you really saying that because Atlantic City drew for 2 AHL games 5 years ago that that shows the team could succeed there? Probably.



Terrific. As I explained already, they are an A-ball team that plays a different, far more popular, sport.

I'm arguing your points directly, I'm not trying to assume what your position is or isn't. I don't disagree that minor league sports draw better further from major markets. What I'm arguing is that major league affiliations don't matter as much as you are trying to say they do, and that minor league sports can work in New Jersey.

Very good, baseball is a more popular sport around here, but again, the point I made was that major league affiliation doesn't matter in people supporting the team (because like I said, I've never met a Mets fan who doesn't support a Phillies affiliate because they are a Phillies affiliate). You can address the points I am making directly, or you can keep arguing with yourself.

I never said anything about the ADevils success in Atlantic City. I have no idea what the numbers were like. I remember the games being somewhat full when I went, but I don't recall well enough. But I am saying a lower division of minor league hockey drew well there, so a higher division of minor league hockey is likely to draw well there. It's simple.

In my position, unless it would be a total failure, financially or otherwise, the Devils should have their American affiliate in New Jersey. They shouldn't be splitting hairs over the advantages or disadvantages of being here or there, they should have them here if it works. We as a state invest a lot of money, time, and energy into this team, and we should hold them to returning that investment and in helping grow the game in our state. It's good for the Devils brand in the long term, it's good for young hockey players, hockey fans, good for the battle for relevancy the team faces against other NHL franchises and other professional sports teams, it would be an absolute win for everyone. If the facilities are sub-par, fine, if it would lose the team a lot of money, fine; otherwise it should be here.