Alain Vigneault Named Head Coach Part 2

[deadhead]

AV's problem in NY was simple, talent.
He took over a team with a solid young core, but crap on defense other than McDonagh - Girardi, Staal, Stralman, Moore, Klein.
His centers were Stepan, 33 year old Brad Richards and Brassard his first season.
And got them to the playoffs 4 years, including the SC Finals.

The league didn't "catch up" to him, the Ranger talent pipeline was empty due to bad picks and trades when he took over.
Four years later, that caught up to him as Lundqvist aged.
Stepan, Zuc, Nash (32), Zibanejad, Hayes, Kreider, Miller, Fast, Vesey were his top 9 forwards
His defense, McDonagh, Girardi, Brendan Smith, Holden, Skjei and Staal.

Notice the Rangers have done zilch since they fired AV, even after signing Panarin and trading for Trouba, the problem was talent, not coaching.
Just enough talent not to make the playoffs, this year they got lucky in the lottery.

 

[Starat327]

They didn’t have Hart the last 8 years. AV didn’t really coach anything per say. No time outs when Montreal took us off our game and play to their speed. Some good challenges (1?), some really bad challenges (I didn’t see the replay...).
Very poor player decisions, poor overuse of garbage players in general and overplaying them too boot.
“Frost wasn’t ready”, I’ll concede that just for arguments sake, but even unready he’s still a better player than grant or Thompson. Ghost sitting out the majority of the playoffs. Not benching Sanheim to wake him up.
The ever persistent dump and chase, but then Hayes would casually skate it on a few times a night showing it can be done.
We’re up a goal guys!, let’s all stand in front of Hart and let them rack up the shots. No we’re winning, we don’t need to play offense anymore.
Hey I know we haven’t had a power play goal in what, four hundred and seventy three attempts, let’s stay the course.

It wasn’t AV that got us to a game 7 of the second round, it was Hart.

This guy gets it.

 

[Striiker]

Not on the AV hate train yet. Playoffs were bad. But do not, DO NOT, say Hakstol was better. That is simply not true. All this Hakstol talk is giving me PTSD.

I need a drink

He absolutely is.
He does everything Hakstol did, plus more. The only reason people don’t want to accept it is because the team won more this year, but that’s not because of him.

Only difference is AV has a better roster and less excuse. Otherwise you can go down the checklist

-obsession with unskilled plugs
-inability to trust skilled young players
-horrible system
-horrible player usage
-horrible lines
-horrible pairs
-selective “accountability“
-shell after leading
-obsession with defense and low scoring games
-indifference towards puck possession
-inability to adjust
-incompetent coaches challenges (x3)
-Im sure theres stuff I’m forgetting that others could mention

And then add on “severely underusing star players”, “healthy scratching top players for multiple games”, and “completely ruined the PP” as things even Hakstols stupid ass didn’t do.

 

[deadhead]

Every coach we've had the last two decades sucked.
Even though AV went to the SC Finals with two different teams, Berube won a Cup with St Louis, Lavi won in Nashville . . .

Exactly who is a good coach?
Sullivan - looked great as long as he had hot playoff goalies and Sidney and Malkin, now he locks like warmed over dog shit.
Q - looked great with great young talent in Chicago, looks like a retread in Florida
Cooper - looked great taking advantage of the new rules, got steamrollered in the playoffs last year, now he looks great moving away from the smurfs with a bigger, more physical team.

Not sure coaches make this huge difference, but every team that loses, the fans blame the HC, until the next HC does worse (see Quinn in NY following AV).

 

[Hurricane28]

I don't have time to go through this point by point but this is recency bias. Hakstol was freaking terrible. Sanheim, who is now a staple in the top 4, couldn't get on the ice with Hakstol. TK was moved around the lineup to where he couldn't succeed and often benched in third periods. And the previous regime likely messed up Gostisbehere trying to play a game he didn't.

The system worked for 80% of the year when they were a fun to watch wagon.

Player usage was fine up until the postseason. Lineup construction was fine as well. And don't say Frost should've been in the lineup. He shouldn't have. He's not ready. He has enormous potential but he's not ready.

They were a menace to play against holding leads for most of the season up until this round. Prior to the Islanders debacles, they were 7-0 when scoring first in the bubble. They were also top 10 in scoring during the regular season, and weren't focused on playing low scoring games.

Yeah, I know I know I'm mentioning regular season a lot. But its a larger sample size on what actually happened with this team. And in a year with an unprecedented three month break and a postseason played in a whole new environment, its not surprising to see what happened.

This isn't a defense of his coaching this series, which I agree, wasn't great. But step off the ledge, because AV is not nearly as bad as this board says. It could be a lot worse. It was a lot worse with Hakstol.

 

[Hurricane28]

Every coach we've had the last two decades sucked.
Even though AV went to the SC Finals with two different teams, Berube won a Cup with St Louis, Lavi won in Nashville . . .

Exactly who is a good coach?
Sullivan - looked great as long as he had hot playoff goalies and Sidney and Malkin, now he locks like warmed over dog shit.
Q - looked great with great young talent in Chicago, looks like a retread in Florida
Cooper - looked great taking advantage of the new rules, got steamrollered in the playoffs last year, now he looks great moving away from the smurfs with a bigger, more physical team.

Not sure coaches make this huge difference, but every team that loses, the fans blame the HC, until the next HC does worse (see Quinn in NY following AV).

I would argue that coaching does make a difference, and seeing the difference between Hakstol and AV has shown that. AV is a guy whose been around the league a long time, plus they added a lot of experience to the assistant coaching pool.

Now, the Flyers made some changes but for the most part, the core of the team from the last years of Hak to now is relatively unchanged. And in a year, they were on pace for a 20-25 point improvement. Some of that can be attributed to the additions and progression of the young players, but bringing in AV and a veteran coaching staff had a lot to do with that.

 

[Striiker]

I don't have time to go through this point by point but this is recency bias. Hakstol was freaking terrible. Sanheim, who is now a staple in the top 4, couldn't get on the ice with Hakstol. TK was moved around the lineup to where he couldn't succeed and often benched in third periods. And the previous regime likely messed up Gostisbehere trying to play a game he didn't.

The system worked for 80% of the year when they were a fun to watch wagon.

Player usage was fine up until the postseason. Lineup construction was fine as well. And don't say Frost should've been in the lineup. He shouldn't have. He's not ready. He has enormous potential but he's not ready.

They were a menace to play against holding leads for most of the season up until this round. Prior to the Islanders debacles, they were 7-0 when scoring first in the bubble. They were also top 10 in scoring during the regular season, and weren't focused on playing low scoring games.

Yeah, I know I know I'm mentioning regular season a lot. But its a larger sample size on what actually happened with this team. And in a year with an unprecedented three month break and a postseason played in a whole new environment, its not surprising to see what happened.

This isn't a defense of his coaching this series, which I agree, wasn't great. But step off the ledge, because AV is not nearly as bad as this board says. It could be a lot worse. It was a lot worse with Hakstol.

The playoffs are what matter most, so if he's semi-competent in the regular season (he really wasn't, but lets pretend) and becomes worse than Hak in the postseason (which he was)... he's worse than Hak.

Most importantly, this isn't a one time thing, this is an established pattern you guys were warned about by Rag fans and other people who paid attention when he was their coach.

Many of you are blinded by the regular season record and give him credit for it, for some random reason. His system was fine in the regular season but outside of that all the same problems existed as they did in the playoffs. The players deserve the credit, not the horrible staff.

 

[Hurricane28]

The playoffs are what matter, so if he's semi-competent in the regular season (he really wasn't, but lets pretend) and becomes worse than Hak in the postseason (which he was)... he's worse than Hak.

Sorry, I'm just not buying he was worse than Hakstol in the playoffs. Yeah the team was worse, but watching that Flyers team vs. Washington was excruciatingly painful. That was the most boring hockey I've ever watched. Pittsburgh series shouldn't have gone 6, but again, worse team.

 

[Striiker]

Sorry, I'm just not buying he was worse than Hakstol in the playoffs. Yeah the team was worse, but watching that Flyers team vs. Washington was excruciatingly painful. That was the most boring hockey I've ever watched. Pittsburgh series shouldn't have gone 6, but again, worse team.

That's because the roster was worse and we were playing much better teams.

AV had a ton more to work with, against worse teams, and we ended up with equally as bad series.

I'm not defending Hakstol at all. AV just managed to one-up him over the past month.

 

[Lindberg]

AV is a bad coach. He clearly doesn't understand how to manage the game, that the PP wasn't working, how and when to challenge a goal, and isn't a good evaluator of on ice talent.

 

[kudymen]

Not going to comment on other things now, but.. I don't understand how a head coach can be content with these things about the PP (and the person responsible for it) over a longer time period:

putrid numbers, (lack of) adjustments in game, (lack of) adjustments between games, personnel choices, display, contrast (in either quality of play or effectiveness) to opposition.

 

[Hurricane28]

That's because the roster was worse and we were playing much better teams.

AV had a ton more to work with, against worse teams, and we ended up with equally as bad series.

I'm not defending Hakstol at all. AV just managed to one-up him over the past month.

I just disagree. I generally liked what I saw from him this year. They went from a dumpster fire to a top 4 team in the East. 25+ point improvement wasn't out of the question if the season finished in full. Yeah, they made some improvements to supplement the core, and young players progressed a bit, but I think you have to give some credit to the coaching staff after the disaster that was the past three seasons.

I saw progress, now they just have to build on it. If they come out next year and are back to being a bubble team and aren't comfortably in the playoff picture, then yeah we have problems. I said it yesterday that its conference finals at a minimum next year or else you make changes and then I'll get on the anti-AV train.

 

[Striiker]

I just disagree. I generally liked what I saw from him this year. They went from a dumpster fire to a top 4 team in the East. 25+ point improvement wasn't out of the question if the season finished in full. Yeah, they made some improvements to supplement the core, and young players progressed a bit, but I think you have to give some credit to the coaching staff after the disaster that was the past three seasons.

I saw progress, now they just have to build on it. If they come out next year and are back to being a bubble team and aren't comfortably in the playoff picture, then yeah we have problems. I said it yesterday that its conference finals at a minimum next year or else you make changes and then I'll get on the anti-AV train.

I don't see why you would.

This season was also a disaster from the coaches, except we had a better roster which blinded people to their mistakes.

Giving them credit for this year would be like giving Hakstol credit for 2017-2018.

 

[Embiid]

Fletcher is a mediocre GM..that is where my focus will be. Flyers better win a cup in the next 5 years....it is pathetic that they are approaching a half century of no championship. We have bad luck along the way but also a lot of wasted years due to poor FO. And I do not want to hear about Clarke being a good GM (especially from people who were toddlers or 10 years old) ...he was not!

 

[Hurricane28]

I don't see why you would.

This season was also a disaster from the coaches, except we had a better roster which blinded people to their mistakes.

Giving them credit for this year would be like giving Hakstol credit for 2017-2018.

Again, I disagree. Even with the 98 point season that year, they were playing relatively a similar style of our favorite "Hakstol hockey". This year, it was a different Flyers team than what I saw the previous 5 years. They played faster, more up tempo. Controlled more games. It was a huge improvement from last year where our top players and defensemen felt like they were skating in mud and hanging on for dear life in games.

 

[Striiker]

Again, I disagree. Even with the 98 point season that year, they were playing relatively a similar style of our favorite "Hakstol hockey". This year, it was a different Flyers team than what I saw the previous 5 years. They played faster, more up tempo. Controlled more games. It was a huge improvement from last year where our top players and defensemen felt like they were skating in mud and hanging on for dear life in games.

Right, my point is that a roster can carry bad coaches, so the teams success this year doesn't mean the coaches weren't horrible. We know teams can be successful with awful coaches, especially when the roster that carried Hakstol was much weaker than this one.

Look, I'm not saying you have to hate AV. I'm just pointing out that it would be a contradiction to praise him but then bash Hakstol, given the fact that they're basically twins. Their lists of flaws are nearly identical.

 

[Hurricane28]

Right, my point is that a roster can carry bad coaches, so the teams success this year doesn't mean the coaches weren't horrible. We know teams can be successful with awful coaches, especially when the roster that carried Hakstol was much weaker than this one.

Look, I'm not saying you have to hate AV. I'm just pointing out that it would be a contradiction to praise him but then bash Hakstol, given the fact that they're basically twins.

I don't think they're twins at all. One is an emotionless tree that has now been the head or assistant coach of multiple underachieving teams while the other has been to two Cup finals with two different teams and in his first year was the head coach of a Flyers team that advanced further than any team in the previous 8 years.

Also think the young players as a whole took a bigger step this year than in any Hakstol years.

I think we also disagree in how much the rosters had an impact during each tenure. While AV no doubt has the better roster, I don't think the gap between Hakstol's best team and AV's best team is THAT large. The core is relatively the same. The roster is just better supplemented. And I don't think a better supplemented roster is worth 25 more points in the standings this year. This season also was without Lindblom and Patrick as well. And while the young players advancement was able to withstand it, if they got a full season of those guys, they were likely even better. Not to mention Grant and Thompson wouldn't be here either if they were healthy.

 

[Lord Defect]

Every coach we've had the last two decades sucked.
Even though AV went to the SC Finals with two different teams, Berube won a Cup with St Louis, Lavi won in Nashville . . .

Exactly who is a good coach?
Sullivan - looked great as long as he had hot playoff goalies and Sidney and Malkin, now he locks like warmed over dog shit.
Q - looked great with great young talent in Chicago, looks like a retread in Florida
Cooper - looked great taking advantage of the new rules, got steamrollered in the playoffs last year, now he looks great moving away from the smurfs with a bigger, more physical team.

Not sure coaches make this huge difference, but every team that loses, the fans blame the HC, until the next HC does worse (see Quinn in NY following AV).

Stevens was alright for a hot minute and Lavy was good for his standard 2 to 2 1/2 years.

 

[Lord Defect]

Sorry, I'm just not buying he was worse than Hakstol in the playoffs. Yeah the team was worse, but watching that Flyers team vs. Washington was excruciatingly painful. That was the most boring hockey I've ever watched. Pittsburgh series shouldn't have gone 6, but again, worse team.

Would we have gotten out of the first round with moose as our starter?

 

[Striiker]

I don't think they're twins at all. One is an emotionless tree that has now been the head or assistant coach of multiple underachieving teams while the other has been to two Cup finals with two different teams and in his first year was the head coach of a Flyers team that advanced further than any team in the previous 8 years.

Also think the young players as a whole took a bigger step this year than in any Hakstol years.

I think we also disagree in how much the rosters had an impact during each tenure. While AV no doubt has the better roster, I don't think the gap between Hakstol's best team and AV's best team is THAT large. The core is relatively the same. The roster is just better supplemented. And I don't think a better supplemented roster is worth 25 more points in the standings this year. This season also was without Lindblom and Patrick as well. And while the young players advancement was able to withstand it, if they got a full season of those guys, they were likely even better. Not to mention Grant and Thompson wouldn't be here either if they were healthy.

I don't care about how they act off the ice. I care about their decision making, and in that respect they're twins.

And the gap between the teams is huge... at least before he screwed it up they were. Just Hart alone massively covered for AVs mistakes.

And it wasn't a 25 point improvement. The team had 98 points in Haks last year and this year they paced for 105.

 

[Hurricane28]

I don't care about how they act off the ice. I care about their decision making, and in that respect they're twins.

And the gap between the teams is huge... at least before he screwed it up they were. Just Hart alone massively covered for AVs mistakes.

And it wasn't a 25 point improvement. The team had 98 points in Haks last year and this year they paced for 105.

Comparing last year's disaster to this year. Yeah, Hak wasn't the coach for the entire year but Gordon was a Hak equivalent. Both were terrible.

 

[Strawberry Fields]

I am still not 100% on the **** AV train, but I was completely and utterly disillusioned by his and his staff's choices in the playoffs.

Maybe a solid 60-75%? Somewhere in that range

 

[Striiker]

Comparing last year's disaster to this year. Yeah, Hak wasn't the coach for the entire year but Gordon was a Hak equivalent. Both were terrible.

Right, and AV is right there with them.

In fact, his playoff system was basically a copy of what Gordon runs in the AHL.

But again, my point is that a team can carry bad coaches. They did it with Hak, they did it with AV. Neither of them deserve credit for what the players did in spite of them.

 

[Hurricane28]

Right, and AV is right there with them.

In fact, his playoff system was basically a copy of what Gordon runs in the AHL.

But again, my point is that a team can carry bad coaches. They did it with Hak, they did it with AV. Neither of them deserve credit for what the players did in spite of them.

Why is it when the team is rolling its the players that get all the credit, but when the team is struggling its the coach? Its somewhere in the middle for me. AV didn't have a good series, but the players also didn't play and execute like they did during the round robin and regular season.

 

[Lindberg]

I don't care about how they act off the ice. I care about their decision making, and in that respect they're twins.

And the gap between the teams is huge... at least before he screwed it up they were. Just Hart alone massively covered for AVs mistakes.

And it wasn't a 25 point improvement. The team had 98 points in Haks last year and this year they paced for 105.

Hart saved this team a lot. This team played the worst hockey of any club that I watched this post season.

I hated Hakstol and I'm basically willing to group AV in there as well now. They managed to clean up the PK and then turn the PPs into a complete abysmal mess.

AVs strategy these playoffs didn't change whether they won or lost a game. He seemed content to just plug along when it was clear that changes needed to happen. It was just bad playing every game with a bit of luck to win.