Add One Past Oiler To The Current Roster

[Fourier]

I've noticed a lot of the narratives in choosing Gretzky over the other options are far more focused on producing points as opposed to making us cup contenders.

Gretzky was the #1 reason the Oilers became a dyansty. It ws not even close for the #2 reason. He was a great playoff player as well. The best of all time. He was also a +90 in 120 playoff games. That's like being a +65 over a full season worth of playoff games. If you want to know what he was like in clutch situations watch the last two games of the '87 Canada Cup. What he did agianst one of the best teams ever assembled is quite remarkable.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

Gretzky was the #1 reason the Oilers became a dyansty. It ws not even close for the #2 reason. He was a great playoff player as well. The best of all time. He was also a +90 in 120 playoff games. That's like being a +65 over a full season worth of playoff games. If you want to know what he was like in clutch situations watch the last two games of the '87 Canada Cup. What he did agianst one of the best teams ever assembled is quite remarkable.

How far do you think prime Gretz and McDrai can carry this current roster?

 

[Fourier]

How far do you think prime Gretz and McDrai can carry this current roster?

If you added a prime Gretzky this current team is a contender and close to a favourite. He was simply that good. Of course this is under the assumption that you didn't have to fit Gretzky in on the cap which would mean a total restructure.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

If you added a prime Gretzky this current team is a contender and close to a favourite. He was simply that good. Of course this is under the assumption that you didn't have to fit Gretzky in on the cap which would mean a total restructure.

I'm sure prime Gretz will work his magic with this current roster but I somehow doubt we'll be cup contenders in comparison to teams that already have a complete roster. You have to factor in other teams that's able to add in their own former greats. Its only fair they do the same thing.

Colorado - Forsberg, Sakic, Roy
Pens - Lemieux, Jagr
Winnipeg - Selanne, Tkachuk, Hawerchuk
St. Louis - Pronger, MacInnis, Hull
Boston - Orr, Bourque, Thomas
NYI - Bossy, Trottier, Potvin
NYR - Messier, Leetch, Richter
Vancouver - Bure, Sedin twins, Linden

 

[Fourier]

I'm sure prime Gretz will work his magic with this current roster but I somehow doubt we'll be cup contenders in comparison to teams that already have a complete roster. You have to factor in other teams that's able to add in their own former greats. Its only fair they do the same thing.

Colorado - Forsberg, Sakic, Roy
Pens - Lemieux, Jagr
Winnipeg - Selanne, Tkachuk, Hawerchuk
St. Louis - Pronger, MacInnis, Hull
Boston - Orr, Bourque, Thomas
NYI - Bossy, Trottier, Potvin
NYR - Messier, Leetch, Richter
Vancouver - Bure, Sedin twins, Linden

The Oilers won 5 cups, 4 with Gretzky. If that team had stayed together they may have won 7 or 8. But people forget how young the Oliers were when they started to make noise. That 81 team that ripped apart a still very good Montreal team was led by a 19 year old Gretzky. Kurri was an unknown rookie. Messier was in the dog house as often as not. They had no one close to the level of the current McDavid/Drasiatl duo early onThey became great because Gretzky was just that good. He was the guy who brought everyone to a new level.

Of the teams you mention think Pittsburgh, Colorado and Boston are the only teams that I would worry about. A prime Lemieux with Crosby and Malking would be a huge challenge, but Crosbly and Malikn are definietly on the downside of thire careers, as is Letang. While McDavid and Draisaitl are entering their prime. Colorado with a prime Roy would be a prety formidable team. And any tem with a prime Bobby Orr is an issue. (Orr is the only one of these guys I never saw live in his prime, but I still feel that way.)

 

[brentashton]

Defence wins championships.

 

[Pointteen]

I'm not sure Coffey was better at his peak than Pronger.
Pronger added a completely different dimension and I think his peak was higher than Lidstrom and Bourque.

Pronger is literally the ONLY Dman to win the Hart Trophy after Orr.
He carried a team centered by Horcoff and Stoll to a game within the cup.

5 pages later and this is it.

we would be unstoppable with Pronger playing 30 minutes a night.

 

[Pointteen]

This clip doesn’t do the Cleary hit justice because of Maltby afterwards. I’ll look for it.


Edit:




Maltby came for revenge and just slowed down Cleary again. A nothing play, but it ties up two of them while we’re quick up the other way.
30 minutes of Pronger would make Mike Smith look like a viable 1B.

 

[Hockey Know it all]

5 pages later and this is it.

we would be unstoppable with Pronger playing 30 minutes a night.

lmao hahaha. He was not better at his peak than lidstrom bro come on.

 

[Pointteen]

lmao hahaha. He was not better at his peak than lidstrom bro come on.

Fair.

okay, I agree with that post except for the better than Lidstrom part.
Pronger’s a substantially better fit here. The toughness factor.
Pronger Bear
Klefbom Nurse
Russell Barrie

if Prongs could make Marc-Andre Bergeron into a top pairing defender then imagine what he makes Bear look like.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

The Oilers won 5 cups, 4 with Gretzky. If that team had stayed together they may have won 7 or 8. But people forget how young the Oliers were when they started to make noise. That 81 team that ripped apart a still very good Montreal team was led by a 19 year old Gretzky. Kurri was an unknown rookie. Messier was in the dog house as often as not. They had no one close to the level of the current McDavid/Drasiatl duo early onThey became great because Gretzky was just that good. He was the guy who brought everyone to a new level.

Of the teams you mention think Pittsburgh, Colorado and Boston are the only teams that I would worry about. A prime Lemieux with Crosby and Malking would be a huge challenge, but Crosbly and Malikn are definietly on the downside of thire careers, as is Letang. While McDavid and Draisaitl are entering their prime. Colorado with a prime Roy would be a prety formidable team. And any tem with a prime Bobby Orr is an issue. (Orr is the only one of these guys I never saw live in his prime, but I still feel that way.)

That wouldn't be possible as a small Canadian market team. I mean sure we got the cup in 1990 after Gretz left but the team couldn't afford to keep the core players and blew them up after the season. Also Gretz's move to LA was important for the growth of the game in the US.

I'm sold on what prime Gretz brings to the table. I'm aware of the cups we've won LOL. But this current roster is far from competing for the cup even with him. I'm talking specifically about the defence and goalie position. Both question marks. We're likely to sink with those position and prime Gretz can't fix those.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

lmao hahaha. He was not better at his peak than lidstrom bro come on.

Disagree, Pronger at his best was WAY better than Lidstrom.
Lidstrom had the better career, and a lot more consistency.

You're telling me you would honestly trade Lidstrom for Pronger in that 06 Series?

Also where is Lidstrom's Hart?


BTW, I picked Pronger purely out of team need.


Minority opinion, but I still sorta feel like Gretzky would still put up 200 points in todays game. He would shred defensive systems to bits.

 

[thadd]

I was really.... REALLY tempted to go with Coffey, but Pronger moves the puck well and makes the goalie's job a helluva lot easier.

 

[Arpeggio]

Disagree, Pronger at his best was WAY better than Lidstrom.
Lidstrom had the better career, and a lot more consistency.

You're telling me you would honestly trade Lidstrom for Pronger in that 06 Series?

Also where is Lidstrom's Hart?


BTW, I picked Pronger purely out of team need.


Minority opinion, but I still sorta feel like Gretzky would still put up 200 points in todays game. He would shred defensive systems to bits.

If you think Gretzky would score 200 points how are you picking pronger? With Gretzky scoring 200 points you’re probably adding 100 goals minimum to the current team with one player.

Anyone who’s taking pronger over Gretzky is seriously lacking appreciation for how good Gretzky was haha, I can’t believe this is still a tied vote.

 

[29Beast97Mode]

I'm not entirely sure about gretz in today's nhl tbh. Not fast enough and not physical enough. But at the same time obviously he can see the game the best on the planet. Kind of a tough call

 

[Fourier]

That wouldn't be possible as a small Canadian market team. I mean sure we got the cup in 1990 after Gretz lwhere eft but the team couldn't afford to keep the core players and blew them up after the season. Also Gretz's move to LA was important for the growth of the game in the US.

I'm sold on what prime Gretz brings to the table. I'm aware of the cups we've won LOL. But this current roster is far from competing for the cup even with him. I'm talking specifically about the defence and goalie position. Both question marks. We're likely to sink with those position and prime Gretz can't fix those.

If you want a justification for my claim I would say this. An excellent predictor of wins is goal differential. Adding a prime Gretzky to the Oilers could easily add +40-50 on the goal differential side. In 1984-85 Gretzky was a plus 98 while in 55 games Mark Messier was a +8. Gretzky through his prime was between a +60 and a +98. During that same perod Messier ranged from a plus 8 to a plus 40. That tells you a lot about how much a prime Gretzky could control the play. A team can't score if they never have the puck in your end. So let's say that Gretzky would add a plus 30 5 vs 5. He easily adds anothe 10 on the differential side from the pp, sh and from playing 3 on 3 shinney. That takes last year's Oilers to a plus 48 team which is right in the ballpark of Tampa and Boston. And I think that this is conservative.

For me the Oilers goaltending is often under rated. It's not stellar but the teandem last year was certainly league average. This team is missing a Paul Coffey of course, but I also think the defense is better that they get credit for and is the strength of their prospect pool.

As far as the small market stuff is concerned I think that this is also over stated The issue was not team revenue. In the 80's the Oilers actually had one of the highest local revenue streams in the NHL at a time where local revenues were the dominant source of revenue for a team. The issue was that Pocklington used the Oilers as an ATM machine to keep him afloat while all of his other business ventures tanked. Ironically Gretzky was bought by an owner that was essentailly operating the same sort of shell game as the Puck was before he sold Gretzky. Had they had an owner with Katz's financial stability back then I think that they could have kept that team together at least into the early 90's. Reember, until 1990 teh Leafs were owned by Harold Ballard. It wasn't until around 92-93 that you started to see big money team really start to assert themselves. And again, what is ironic in this is that the catalyst for most of this inflation was Pocklington's mismanaging of the Oilers.

 

[Fourier]

I'm not entirely sure about gretz in today's nhl tbh. Not fast enough and not physical enough. But at the same time obviously he can see the game the best on the planet. Kind of a tough call

Gretzky was a lot faster than he is credited with being. But even with his speed he'd still be one of the best skaters in the game. His agility was off the charts. I doubt the physical issue would be a factor at all.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

Gretzky was a lot faster than he is credited with being. But even with his speed he'd still be one of the best skaters in the game. His agility was off the charts. I doubt the physical issue would be a factor at all.

In an era where players used training camp to start getting in shape for the season.

 

[GMofOilers]

I'm not entirely sure about gretz in today's nhl tbh. Not fast enough and not physical enough. But at the same time obviously he can see the game the best on the planet. Kind of a tough call

that’s what they said in 1978 also.

 

[tardigrade81]

Remember Ryan Stone? Man he was terrible....:

anyway it would be Gretzky

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

If you want a justification for my claim I would say this. An excellent predictor of wins is goal differential. Adding a prime Gretzky to the Oilers could easily add +40-50 on the goal differential side. In 1984-85 Gretzky was a plus 98 while in 55 games Mark Messier was a +8. Gretzky through his prime was between a +60 and a +98. During that same perod Messier ranged from a plus 8 to a plus 40. That tells you a lot about how much a prime Gretzky could control the play. A team can't score if they never have the puck in your end. So let's say that Gretzky would add a plus 30 5 vs 5. He easily adds anothe 10 on the differential side from the pp, sh and from playing 3 on 3 shinney. That takes last year's Oilers to a plus 48 team which is right in the ballpark of Tampa and Boston. And I think that this is conservative.

For me the Oilers goaltending is often under rated. It's not stellar but the teandem last year was certainly league average. This team is missing a Paul Coffey of course, but I also think the defense is better that they get credit for and is the strength of their prospect pool.

As far as the small market stuff is concerned I think that this is also over stated The issue was not team revenue. In the 80's the Oilers actually had one of the highest local revenue streams in the NHL at a time where local revenues were the dominant source of revenue for a team. The issue was that Pocklington used the Oilers as an ATM machine to keep him afloat while all of his other business ventures tanked. Ironically Gretzky was bought by an owner that was essentailly operating the same sort of shell game as the Puck was before he sold Gretzky. Had they had an owner with Katz's financial stability back then I think that they could have kept that team together at least into the early 90's. Reember, until 1990 teh Leafs were owned by Harold Ballard. It wasn't until around 92-93 that you started to see big money team really start to assert themselves. And again, what is ironic in this is that the catalyst for most of this inflation was Pocklington's mismanaging of the Oilers.

We've established that prime Gretz will take us to the playoffs. I'm not concerned about points or goal differentials LOL

My point is simple: We won't beat out teams like Colorado's current roster (assuming it's Roy or Forsberg) or St. Louis' roster (Pronger) in a playoff format. And those are teams in the West. Tampa, Boston, Pittsburgh, heck maybe Buffalo's roster with prime Hasek might be good enough to be cup contenders now that they have Hall.

 

[Arpeggio]

Gretzky was a lot faster than he is credited with being. But even with his speed he'd still be one of the best skaters in the game. His agility was off the charts. I doubt the physical issue would be a factor at all.

Fourier this is one that we're not gonna win. I don't know what's going on here but Pronger winning this poll is a sign of the end of times.

 

[Fourier]

We've established that prime Gretz will take us to the playoffs. I'm not concerned about points or goal differentials LOL

My point is simple: We won't beat out teams like Colorado's current roster (assuming it's Roy or Forsberg) or St. Louis' roster (Pronger) in a playoff format. And those are teams in the West. Tampa, Boston, Pittsburgh, heck maybe Buffalo's roster with prime Hasek might be good enough to be cup contenders now that they have Hall.

The reason goal differential matters is because NHL rules say that you win if you score more goals than the other team. As far as I know that also applies in the playoffs. The chart below tells you the rank of the last ten cup winners in terms of their rank in GF and GA in the playoffs.

GF	GA
4	3
6	7
1	4
1	5
2	3
3	9
1	4
6	4
3	1
5	1
3.2	4.1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Over the last 5 years here is the regualr season GF rank of teh cup winner.

GF

1

5

24

1

6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And finally, Gretzky was far and away the best playoff player I have ever watched. It's not even close.

 

[Fourier]

Fourier this is one that we're not gonna win. I don't know what's going on here but Pronger winning this poll is a sign of the end of times.

People have a right to their opinions. But I have to say that the fact that this is even close also surprises me.

 

[Smartguy]

The reason goal differential matters is because NHL rules say that you win if you score more goals than the other team. As far as I know that also applies in the playoffs. The chart below tells you the rank of the last ten cup winners in terms of their rank in GF and GA in the playoffs.

GF	GA
4	3
6	7
1	4
1	5
2	3
3	9
1	4
6	4
3	1
5	1
3.2	4.1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Over the last 5 years here is the regualr season GF rank of teh cup winner.

GF

1

5

24

1

6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And finally, Gretzky was far and away the best playoff player I have ever watched. It's not even close.

Im going off the join date of 2017 to say you are likely arguing with someone who has never watched Gretzky actually play a full game. That’s the difference. Anyone on here old enough, or like me watched a lot of classic NHL games, is saying Gretzky and wondering what everyone else is smoking. Anyone voting Pronger probably remembers how good Pronger was in 2006 as one of their fondest hockey memories, which is fine, I just don’t know how you argue against adding the greatest player of all time to your roster, but I stopped arguing that a few pages ago.