Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXX

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Ward's offense is nice but if you're going to pay for goals, I'd much rather go after real talent for the second line (Vanek/Gaborik/Stastny) and get someone like Ott or Fiddler for the third line.

A lot depends on whether we're going to live another year under the tyranny of handedness.

I want no part of Vanek at 7x8 if that's what he's going to command as rumored.

Agree with your second point.

 

[Capitlols]

not distorting your words.

the caps have a bevy of needs. trading a ward as a pending ufa would bring back 2nd tier picks and prospects. assets that would fall into the chris brown category perhaps. at best. chris brown and a 3rd will often times turn out to be nothing. so you are still letting him walk for nothing only you are doing it one season early.

all gm's don't think alike. am I wrong? you are saying you think he should be traded to manage assets correctly and thinking there are gm's that wont see that and overpay for the player you are selling?

I am not trying to be combative. maybe I am not getting my point across the right way. if trading a player that is a pending ufa is what a competent gm would do, don't you expect that the other gm's know that?

Joel Ward isn't Martin Erat. Erat has demanded trades from two different teams in two years, his play deteriorated, and he doesn't have the playoff resume Ward does. That is a pretty terrible comparable.

You never know if there is a GM out there who might think they're a Joel Ward away from serious contention and overpay for him, kind of like what GMGM did in the off-season for Ward.

I'd like a plan. Don't make the same mistake with Semin, Fleischmann, Green, etc.. Make a decision on if the player should be part of the team moving forward, if not, trade him and get some value. Who cares if other GM's know that? It doesn't mean they won't give you value and I'm not saying be desperate and trade him for the sake of it, see what's out there.

 

[txpd]

the capitals traded fleischmann for hannan.
the capitals kept semin to make the playoffs.

essentially what you are saying is that the capitals as a playoff contender should operate as the dallas stars did with ribeiro. they were not going to sign him, so they moved him with a year left on his deal for a good prospect and a draft pick. is that what you are suggesting?

in advance I would remind you that trades like that almost always result in a step backward for the current team.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

the capitals traded fleischmann for hannan.
the capitals kept semin to make the playoffs.

essentially what you are saying is that the capitals as a playoff contender should operate as the dallas stars did with ribeiro. they were not going to sign him, so they moved him with a year left on his deal for a good prospect and a draft pick. is that what you are suggesting?

in advance I would remind you that trades like that almost always result in a step backward for the current team.

The Caps should evaluate each situation independently. In the case of Semin, the team was highly flawed and thus never getting anywhere in the playoffs, so they should have traded him.

 

[Capitlols]

the capitals traded fleischmann for hannan.
the capitals kept semin to make the playoffs.

essentially what you are saying is that the capitals as a playoff contender should operate as the dallas stars did with ribeiro. they were not going to sign him, so they moved him with a year left on his deal for a good prospect and a draft pick. is that what you are suggesting?

in advance I would remind you that trades like that almost always result in a step backward for the current team.

When his value was low.
Let him walk for nothing, to a division rival(at the time) no less.

Being a "playoff contender" encompasses a lot of teams and doesn't mean much, is that the end goal now? I'm saying they need to retool and find value where appropriate. Losing Ward would hardly devastate this team if 1) They get good value in return or 2) the top 6 steps it up.

I would remind you for the reference you used, the Dallas Stars, it worked out well for them. Eakin is a productive player and a key player in their playoff run. Ribeiro wasn't going to be in their plans going forward. You act as if trading Ward = rebuild, you can still get a player to contribute along with other pieces.

 

[hb12xchamps]

I wonder what the market would be for Ward. I don't think he would fetch would Ribeiro did but you never know with some of these GM's

 

[Hivemind]

If all he's been allowed to be is a 4th line banger in the NHL, is it terribly surprising that's all he's shown so far? I'm one of Fehr's biggest fans, so if he's not centering the 3rd line, I'd be fine with him at 2RW. If that happens, and one/both of Brouwer and Ward are still here, the logical move is Wilson to Hershey, which makes their decision to keep him in DC this year rather baffling.

Just because you're on the 4th line doesn't mean you can't show off offensive promise. He's had 70 games to show some offensive spark, and we've seen what, four or fiive powermoves (half of which he lost the puck on) and a single good one-timer so far? He's not even causing the havoc in front of the net that a player of his build and playstyle is supposed to. There have been opportunities with players like Erat, Laich, Kuznetsov, and Fehr on the line with him. Kuznetsov made himself noticed almost immediately, despite only getting 4th line minutes, and is directly responsible for one of Wilson's few good offensive plays all season. Wilson has just continued to hit and fight.

A lot of people have this hard-on for Wilson as the next Lucic. There's no guarantee he's going to be that player, and forcefeeding him top six minutes in the NHL is certainly not guaranteed to translate into the production required from that position. His offensive game should have been allowed to continue to develop in the OHL, and hopefully he's given some opportunities in the AHL next season, especially with Chris Brown in the fold to take over the 4RW position.

 

[g00n]

What rookie 4th liners are lighting it up this year?

 

[FloridaCap]

With regards to Wilson:

He honestly showed enough potential for me in finishing off that amazing pass by Kuznetsov a week or two back. How many players on our team would have either failed to lift the puck and bomb it off of Lack's pads, put it right in the goalie's chest, or sent it wide? Hell, some may have even bobbled the puck and lost it.

That play was so refreshing to see because somebody actually FINISHED a nice pass. Lifted the puck, and went top shelf. NOBODY does that on this team. It's infuriating. Our defense is so bad this year that we often see opponent's shooting from the slot, and almost every time they are lifting the puck and making the goalie make a save. For us, we just slide the puck into their pads. It feels like every player on our team, sans-Ovechkin, is using a flat stick.

 

[EroCaps]

With regards to Wilson:

He honestly showed enough potential for me in finishing off that amazing pass by Kuznetsov a week or two back. How many players on our team would have either failed to lift the puck and bomb it off of Lack's pads, put it right in the goalie's chest, or sent it wide? Hell, some may have even bobbled the puck and lost it.

That play was so refreshing to see because somebody actually FINISHED a nice pass. Lifted the puck, and went top shelf. NOBODY does that on this team. It's infuriating. Our defense is so bad this year that we often see opponent's shooting from the slot, and almost every time they are lifting the puck and making the goalie make a save. For us, we just slide the puck into their pads. It feels like every player on our team, sans-Ovechkin, is using a flat stick.

Dude, you're seeing what you want to see with Wilson. That was a nice shot, but nothing special. I like the intangibles he brings, but his offensive game is third line at best and he'll be fortunate to be more than a role player. It was a waste of a 1st rd pick IMO.

It's just like McPhee to overdraft a fighter as the league shifts away from fighting. He's always building the team that won the Cup last year rather than building the one that will take the future.

 

[txpd]

When his value was low.
Let him walk for nothing, to a division rival(at the time) no less.

Being a "playoff contender" encompasses a lot of teams and doesn't mean much, is that the end goal now? I'm saying they need to retool and find value where appropriate. Losing Ward would hardly devastate this team if 1) They get good value in return or 2) the top 6 steps it up.

I would remind you for the reference you used, the Dallas Stars, it worked out well for them. Eakin is a productive player and a key player in their playoff run. Ribeiro wasn't going to be in their plans going forward. You act as if trading Ward = rebuild, you can still get a player to contribute along with other pieces.

1. the stars were not going to make the playoffs. they were rebuilding. are you suggesting the caps should throw in the towel on the playoffs for next year now?

2. ward is not ribeiro, a hard to find 2c with a track record of production. you think ward brings a cody eakin? what is your definintion of good value?

 

[Hivemind]

What rookie 4th liners are lighting it up this year?

You don't stay on the 4th line if you light it up. Wilson has done nothing to earn his way off the 4th line. Kuznetsov, on the other hand, did. Chris Brown has two points in four games on the 4th line. Guys like Patrick Maroon, Michael Raffl, and Justin Fontaine have earned their minutes by producing on lower lines.

 

[txpd]

Dude, you're seeing what you want to see with Wilson. That was a nice shot, but nothing special. I like the intangibles he brings, but his offensive game is third line at best and he'll be fortunate to be more than a role player. It was a waste of a 1st rd pick IMO.

It's just like McPhee to overdraft a fighter as the league shifts away from fighting. He's always building the team that won the Cup last year rather than building the one that will take the future.

so...what do you like about the caps?

 

[FloridaCap]

Dude, you're seeing what you want to see with Wilson. That was a nice shot, but nothing special. I like the intangibles he brings, but his offensive game is third line at best and he'll be fortunate to be more than a role player. It was a waste of a 1st rd pick IMO.

It's just like McPhee to overdraft a fighter as the league shifts away from fighting. He's always building the team that won the Cup last year rather than building the one that will take the future.

The waste of a first round pick lies in picking somebody you never intended to use, trade him for a washed up veteran, and end up getting a C-level prospect out of the whole thing.

The kid is 19, and you're already putting an arbitrary "ceiling" on him? Sure, he doesn't have filthy hands or a shot like Semin, but nobody expected that from him. He can skate, he can hit, he can fight, and he has enough skill to hang on a top-6 line without looking like an ECHL player like Volpatti.

Regarding the draft, the only players picked after him that look to be any good so far are Olli Maatta and Tomas Hertl. The jury is still out on both of them. You can't possibly put ceilings on kids who are under 20-years-old and have barely gotten their feet wet in the league yet.

You can do a hell of a lot worse in the first round than picking a kid who is already among the leaders in hits while not getting a chance to shine offensively. He played like 3 games with Kuznetsov and that was one of our best lines.

 

[Stewie G]

Just because you're on the 4th line doesn't mean you can't show off offensive promise. He's had 70 games to show some offensive spark, and we've seen what, four or fiive powermoves (half of which he lost the puck on) and a single good one-timer so far? He's not even causing the havoc in front of the net that a player of his build and playstyle is supposed to. There have been opportunities with players like Erat, Laich, Kuznetsov, and Fehr on the line with him. Kuznetsov made himself noticed almost immediately, despite only getting 4th line minutes, and is directly responsible for one of Wilson's few good offensive plays all season. Wilson has just continued to hit and fight.

A lot of people have this hard-on for Wilson as the next Lucic. There's no guarantee he's going to be that player, and forcefeeding him top six minutes in the NHL is certainly not guaranteed to translate into the production required from that position. His offensive game should have been allowed to continue to develop in the OHL, and hopefully he's given some opportunities in the AHL next season, especially with Chris Brown in the fold to take over the 4RW position.

I'm sorry, but Erat and Laich are not shining stars when it comes to bringing out the best in others. I'm very curious what his most frequent linemate %s are.

We saw a good play from Wilson when he was paired with a good offensive player. Imagine that.

 

[Hivemind]

I'm sorry, but Erat and Laich are not shining stars when it comes to bringing out the best in others. I'm very curious what his most frequent linemate %s are.

We saw a good play from Wilson when he was paired with a good offensive player. Imagine that.

Fontaine has been putting up solid numbers with Matt Cooke and Kyle Brodziak. Not exaclty offensive studs. Chris Brown has two points in four games playing with the same type of linemates as Tom Wilson has all season (it's not as if Penner or Wilson are "shining stars when it comes to bringing out the best in others"). Wilson has shown a handful of offensive plays all season. A good play every ten games or so is doesn't qualify you to move up the line-up. That's Matt Hendricks territory.

Attempting to justify Wilson's offensive potential based off a single play created by Kuznetsov is laughable.

 

[g00n]

You don't stay on the 4th line if you light it up. Wilson has done nothing to earn his way off the 4th line. Kuznetsov, on the other hand, did. Chris Brown has two points in four games on the 4th line. Guys like Patrick Maroon, Michael Raffl, and Justin Fontaine have earned their minutes by producing on lower lines.

Those are coaching decisions. Just like playing a role as a 4th line g00n has become an apparent coaching decision for Wilson.

Maroon is 25 years old, Wilson is 19. Maroon has 9 career NHL goals. That's not comparable at all and that's not lighting it up.

Raffl is also 25 years old. He has 9 goals this year in 59 games. Would that be lighting it up if it were Wilson?

Fontaine is 26 years old, with 13 goals in 56 games.


So again, what ****ing 19 year old rookies are taking the league by storm with scoring and finesse on a 4th line somewhere? What would Caps fans be saying about Wilson if he were putting up those numbers in 6 or 7 years?

 

[ChibiPooky]

Wilson was never going to move from the 4th line unless Ovechkin, Brouwer, or Ward got injured.

 

[Liberati0n*]

You don't stay on the 4th line if you light it up. Wilson has done nothing to earn his way off the 4th line. Kuznetsov, on the other hand, did. Chris Brown has two points in four games on the 4th line. Guys like Patrick Maroon, Michael Raffl, and Justin Fontaine have earned their minutes by producing on lower lines.

Did you watch Chris Brown's goal? Wilson was to Brown as Kuznetsov had been to him. The goal was gift-wrapped because of Wilson's great persistence on the forecheck.

I don't think Wilson should be in the top-six next year or something, but your minimization of his flashes comes off as just as biased as the beating of the Lucic drum.

 

[Hivemind]

Those are coaching decisions. Just like playing a role as a 4th line g00n has become an apparent coaching decision for Wilson.

Maroon is 25 years old, Wilson is 19. Maroon has 9 career NHL goals. That's not comparable at all and that's not lighting it up.

Raffl is also 25 years old. He has 9 goals this year in 59 games. Would that be lighting it up if it were Wilson?

Fontaine is 26 years old, with 13 goals in 56 games.


So again, what ****ing 19 year old rookies are taking the league by storm with scoring and finesse on a 4th line somewhere? What would Caps fans be saying about Wilson if he were putting up those numbers in 6 or 7 years?

Way to completely miss the point, and then add multiple additional qualifiers to your " so again" that was not there previously.

Wilson has shown nothing offensively, even when playing with offensive-oriented linemates. Multiple other young players have produced offensively on the 4th line, whether it be on the Capitals (Kuznetsov, Brown) or elsewhere. Most of them have moved up the line-up as a result.

Fontaine, Raffl, and Maroon were three quick examples of players who have earned offensive responsibility on their teams by playing well. All of them have significantly more points (in addition to goals) than Wilson. Putting up 13 goals with guys like Brodziak and Cooke is showing a lot more than Wilson has shown. Playing well enough to enable your team to trade Dustin Penner for scraps is showing a lot more than Wilson has shown. Becoming a player that can shuffle up and down the line-up without an issue to plug holes and find chemistry is showing a lot more than Wilson has shown. None of those players were handed a cushy gig, they earned them with quality play and superior produciton when compared to Tom Wilson. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Even a guy like Nathan MacKinnon started behind Duchene and Stastny on his team's depth chart, and has earned increased ice time.

Tom Wilson's play style is not a "coaching decision." It's how he's always played. He was a banger in Plymouth, he was a banger in the pre-season, and he's a banger now. The coaching staff has put players with offensive skill and territorial possession ability on the 4th line at various points. Volpatti and Latta have been benched in favor of guys like Wellman, Stoa, and Deschamps. If anything, it's clear the coaching staff wants more than just checking and fighting from the 4th line. Wilson hasn't provided that, nor has he shown any indication of significant untapped offensive potential or an inclination to change his game. If we wanted offensive production from Wilson, he should have stayed in Plymouth where he could learn to pick his spots and play with the puck.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Here's the beating of the Lucic drum.

 

[Capitlols]

1. the stars were not going to make the playoffs. they were rebuilding. are you suggesting the caps should throw in the towel on the playoffs for next year now?

2. ward is not ribeiro, a hard to find 2c with a track record of production. you think ward brings a cody eakin? what is your definintion of good value?

Yes, because losing Ward is like losing a 1st line C. Stop the exaggerations already. Trading Ward is hardly throwing in the towel for the playoffs, if they go that route.

I never compared Ward to Ribeiro(or Erat, you did), you threw out the Stars as comparable as if trading Ribeiro was some sort of failure.

Good value would be either getting a solid defender or center, or a package of picks/prospects which would give them extra cap space to get help where they need it.

 

[g00n]

Way to completely miss the point, and then add multiple additional qualifiers to your " so again" that was not there previously.

Wilson has shown nothing offensively, even when playing with offensive-oriented linemates. Multiple other young players have produced offensively on the 4th line, whether it be on the Capitals (Kuznetsov, Brown) or elsewhere. Most of them have moved up the line-up as a result.

Fontaine, Raffl, and Maroon were three quick examples of players who have earned offensive responsibility on their teams by playing well. All of them have significantly more points (in addition to goals) than Wilson. Putting up 13 goals with guys like Brodziak and Cooke is showing a lot more than Wilson has shown. Playing well enough to enable your team to trade Dustin Penner for scraps is showing a lot more than Wilson has shown. Becoming a player that can shuffle up and down the line-up without an issue to plug holes and find chemistry is showing a lot more than Wilson has shown. None of those players were handed a cushy gig, they earned them with quality play and superior produciton when compared to Tom Wilson. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Even a guy like Nathan MacKinnon started behind Duchene and Stastny on his team's depth chart, and has earned increased ice time.

Tom Wilson's play style is not a "coaching decision." It's how he's always played. He was a banger in Plymouth, he was a banger in the pre-season, and he's a banger now. The coaching staff has put players with offensive skill and territorial possession ability on the 4th line at various points. Volpatti and Latta have been benched in favor of guys like Wellman, Stoa, and Deschamps. If anything, it's clear the coaching staff wants more than just checking and fighting from the 4th line. Wilson hasn't provided that, nor has he shown any indication of significant untapped offensive potential or an inclination to change his game. If we wanted offensive production from Wilson, he should have stayed in Plymouth where he could learn to pick his spots and play with the puck.

So in other words, you don't really have any real comparables and you have an irrational belief that Wilson is somehow bucking coaching expectations in favor of undproductive goonery, and that the 3 well-paid veterans entrenched above him in Oates' handedness scheme would somehow be demoted if he just produced more like the coaches presumably want him to.

Ok, makes so much sense my head hurts.

 

[EroCaps]

so...what do you like about the caps?

Did you read what I wrote about Wilson? I was fairly generous. He was just overdrafted.

Waxing poetic about one decent wrist shot won't change that opinion.

Your constant knee-jerk defenses have long since clouded your ability to see the team on any real terms.

McPhee is clueless. Oates is their worst coach since Cassidy. If not the last 30 years. The team is built counter to how you build a Cup contender. Their superstar has become increasingly one-dimensional.

They have a handful of young players that would make a nice core group for different management: Carlson, Backstrom, Alzner, Kuznetsov, Burakovsky, Ovy, Orlov.

Hope for that.

 

[Hivemind]

So in other words, you don't really have any real comparables and you have an irrational belief that Wilson is somehow bucking coaching expectations in favor of undproductive goonery, and that the 3 well-paid veterans entrenched above him in Oates' handedness scheme would somehow be demoted if he just produced more like the coaches presumably want him to.

Ok, makes so much sense my head hurts.

If you're going to intentionally be obtuse, why even bother discussing things? I have pretty clearly laid out my case and evidnce to support it, all of which you seem to have ignored or written off without considering. The reason there aren't examples of rookies producing on the 4th line is because it's a terrible place to develop offensive talent. The rookies capable of producing have moved up, and the ones who weren't ready didn't make their NHL rosters. It wasn't just a handful of Caps fans that raised their eyebrows when Wilson remained on the NHL roster, especially when he was only receiving six minutes a game.

What have I said that wasn't true? Tom Wilson loved to make body contact and chase hits in junior hockey, often at the expense of his offense. The coaching staff has put multiple players who don't fit the goon/banger/grinder mold on the 4th line, benching ones who do in the process. Other rookies on the Capitals have produced given 4th line minutes. Other rookies on other teams have moved up their line-ups because they were producing. Heck, Oates has even moved multiple depth wingers to center to get them more playing time (Fehr, Brown, Erat). So, what exactly is the evidence you have that Tom Wilson is some offensive flower who will blossom given more playing time?