Speculation: Acq./Rost. Bldg./Cap/Lines etc. Part LXXIV (Arbitration Season)

[hockeykicker]

Good Lord are we making a big deal over a discussion, about a 4th rounder/fringe NHL'er picking another team.

We have little else to discuss IMO.

Sure, we are suddenly now hoping he's no more than a Chris Bourque, but until there is something better to talk about, why not discuss the wasted 5 years of time and effort on the kid?

We are not talking 5 days or 5 months. 5 years is worth a few posts, isn't it? It's not all about when a guy was drafted.

But if it's true that he signed with Pitt because it's his favorite team and a dream for him how are the caps at fault? for all we know he never wanted to sign with the caps even if they gave him everything in the world

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

to be clear, Trotz is talking about training camp lines. he is saying he wants galiev and connolly to play with the 4 best players in camp. no chance winnik is the scratch most nights.

One can hope. Don't like Winnik

 

[g00n]

Sure, but the organization doesn't rest entirely on Trotz. What you see is the combined effort of the head coach, assistants, scouts etc. And that's just within the Capitals' organization, you also have the staff from the Bears and other affiliates working in concert with the Capitals' staff.

Yes...I know...obviously. But again, the question is what have ANY of that group done to develop offensive talent among forwards...together or one their own ??

 

[Devil Dancer]

Shouldn't Trotz get some credit for Kuznetsov's growth from 14-15 to 15-16? Or are we going to chalk all of that up to getting used to the NHL game?

He didn't exactly tear up the KHL in his last season there.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Good Lord are we making a big deal over a discussion, about a 4th rounder/fringe NHL'er picking another team.

We have little else to discuss IMO.

Sure, we are suddenly now hoping he's no more than a Chris Bourque, but until there is something better to talk about, why not discuss the wasted 5 years of time and effort on the kid?

We are not talking 5 days or 5 months. 5 years is worth a few posts, isn't it? It's not all about when a guy was drafted.

When people try and use it as some indictment against the regime, then yes....it's overkill. Guy (with zero ties to DC) goes and plays for his favourite team, and now the Caps/Trotz can't develop forwards talent?

You don't see that as sensationalism, to a massive degree?

"DiPauli signs with hated Pens.... 'Trotz would ruin my career, he's a talent killer!!!' -- claims a shook up Thomas, amid a throng of scouts and agents. 'The fact that I was this close to being a part of that organization is terrifying' continues Thomas, 'look what they did to Connor Carrick, he was a STAR before signing there...and now he's a LEAF!!!....that could have been me!!!' (Thomas breaks down sobbing and whimpering as his family takes him away to a back room)

That should be the headline story on the National Inquirer's hockey section.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Yes...I know...obviously. But again, the question is what have ANY of that group done to develop offensive talent among forwards...together or one their own ??

To be fair...the Trotz piece can just as easily be laid at the feet of Poile (in Nash) as it does on him. Who did Poile draft/develop in 20 years in DC? I think Gartner predated him....so that leaves Bondra, and??? I'm sure there is someone, but the list is not long.

Poile has always equaled Defense. Always.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Shouldn't Trotz get some credit for Kuznetsov's growth from 14-15 to 15-16? Or are we going to chalk all of that up to getting used to the NHL game?

He didn't exactly tear up the KHL in his last season there.

Yeah, Trotz deserves some credit for that, but the expectations for Kuzy were always high. He was an elite prospect, the best prospect outside of NA after Tarasenko's departure. Kuzy always had the potential to be an elite NHL player, he just had to use his skill adequately.

Kuzy was plagued with injuries in his last KHL season, his numbers in the KHL did not reflect the level at which he was playing. He was not among the top scorers of the league, but the goals he scored and the plays he made were outrageous. It's hard to ruin such a talented prospect.

 

[RandyHolt]

...

'Trotz would ruin my career, he's a talent killer!!!' -- claims a shook up Thomas, amid a throng of scouts and agents.

That should be the headline story on the National Inquirer's hockey section.

Post of the month candidate

 

[txpd]

To be fair...the Trotz piece can just as easily be laid at the feet of Poile (in Nash) as it does on him. Who did Poile draft/develop in 20 years in DC? I think Gartner predated him....so that leaves Bondra, and??? I'm sure there is someone, but the list is not long.

Poile has always equaled Defense. Always.

Didnt Poile draft Gustafsson and Pivonka? Its clear that Poile has a knack with defensemen. Stevens and Hatcher and Weber and Suter and Josi among others.

Had their been a Mitch Korn for his goaltending with the Capitals they might have won several Cups during his tenure. The only time they had anything like an elite level goalie before Kolzig was one partial season of an aging Mike Liut and they went to the conference finals with him.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Didnt Poile draft Gustafsson and Pivonka? Its clear that Poile has a knack with defensemen. Stevens and Hatcher and Weber and Suter and Josi among others.

Had their been a Mitch Korn for his goaltending with the Capitals they might have won several Cups during his tenure. The only time they had anything like an elite level goalie before Kolzig was one partial season of an aging Mike Liut and they went to the conference finals with him.

Negative on Gustafsson. Yes on Pivonka. He didn't draft Carpenter either.

Pivonka and Erat are 2 more that come to mind. Legwand too, right? (Really high up).

Point is Poile didn't draft offense well, at all. And still doesn't. So can't really tell where Trotz falls on that piece?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

599 pt Pivonka is hardly worth bragging over....at least as some sort of developmental ribbon.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

599 pt Pivonka is hardly worth bragging over....at least as some sort of developmental ribbon.

Pivonka had 3 70+ point seasons, that's worth bragging over. Not bad at all for a 3rd round pick. Regardless, Pivonka was over 20 years ago, the Caps development system and philosophy changed a lot since the 90s.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Pivonka had 3 70+ point seasons, that's worth bragging over. Not bad at all for a 3rd round pick. Regardless, Pivonka was over 20 years ago, the Caps development system and philosophy changed a lot since the 90s.

3 70pt seasons was nothing to brag about in 90-93. I saw his entire career, and was a big fan, but again, nothing to brag about if you're Poile IMO.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

3 70pt seasons was nothing to brag about in 90-93. I saw his entire career, and was a big fan, but again, nothing to brag about if you're Poile IMO.

Okay, whatever. You'll struggle to find great players drafted by the Caps after the 1st round. When you get in the late rounds of the draft, sometimes you are lucky to draft a guy like Datsyuk. More often than not, you draft a nobody who plays in a minor league his entire life without getting a crack at making the NHL.

 

[RandyHolt]

What are the guidelines to grade the development of prospects?

Perhaps something around games played / round drafted; bonus points for undrafted YOUNG players that forged out careers. Subtracting for can't miss prospects seems wise. We cannot and will not credit George for developing Ovi

Penalizing heavy for early 1st round busts seems to have a place in all this; all data compared to other teams. All sorted by regime.

 

[Stewie G]

That sounds dangerously close to Fancystats territory. Can't be havin' any more of that nonsense 'round these parts.

Edit to add:

For balance, needs to include "Beverages Banned" and "Cliches/Interview" stats.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Any draftee that makes the NHL roster has been developed IMO. To what extent and how you measure that is the big question.

Do 1st rounders count less in the eyes of those who believe Trotz hasn't developed anyone in his career?

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

What matters is that we have a lot of success drafting late in the 1st round, which means we will be able to draft good prospects for as long as we keep competing for a Cup in the Ovechkin era.

 

[txpd]

Ovechkin. If he is mentally unprepared or uninterested. If he is screwing up by being a selfish or tunnel vision player, we blame that on coaching and management. Right? We certainly have in the past.

If we blame them for him having issues, why are they not given credit for him maturing and growing his game and having a good attitude under difficult circumstances and becoming a better leader?

Management has put quality players with him that give him the best chance to succeed. Coaching have built schemes that allow him to maximize his best skills. They dont get credit for that?

Personally, I think a player that applies his skills with the level of emotion that Ovechkin does and who has been terribly disappointed and broken hearted by failures of the past and seems to only try harder must earn credit for his bosses for keeping him pointed in the right direction.

Do we really really not give the Caps credit for trading to get a pick and taking Carlson and then growing Carlson into a legit 1D with a late 1st pick? Do we not credit them for not rushing Alzner and growing him into a successful top 5 pick level player? Do we not give them credit for having the balls to select Kuznetsov and then having the patience to let him run his course?

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Ovechkin. If he is mentally unprepared or uninterested. If he is screwing up by being a selfish or tunnel vision player, we blame that on coaching and management. Right? We certainly have in the past.

If we blame them for him having issues, why are they not given credit for him maturing and growing his game and having a good attitude under difficult circumstances and becoming a better leader?

Management has put quality players with him that give him the best chance to succeed. Coaching have built schemes that allow him to maximize his best skills. They dont get credit for that?

Personally, I think a player that applies his skills with the level of emotion that Ovechkin does and who has been terribly disappointed and broken hearted by failures of the past and seems to only try harder must earn credit for his bosses for keeping him pointed in the right direction.

Do we really really not give the Caps credit for trading to get a pick and taking Carlson and then growing Carlson into a legit 1D with a late 1st pick? Do we not credit them for not rushing Alzner and growing him into a successful top 5 pick level player? Do we not give them credit for having the balls to select Kuznetsov and then having the patience to let him run his course?

Yes, that's all part of development. Ovechkin was misguided by the previous coaching staffs.

He was fine under Hanlon, he was the most dynamic rookie I've ever seen.
Under BB, he was allowed to do whatever he wanted. He became the top scoring threat in the NHL, winning awards every year and he was the most feared player in the NHL. He wasn't ready to be a leader right away, and he wasn't committed to playing a two-way game.
Hunter didn't trust him, and Ovechkin reached the lowest point of his career in 2012.
Under Oates, he found his scoring touch again, but he was playing on the wrong side and his defensive game became an issue.

I'll credit Trotz for making Ovechkin one of the most complete players in the NHL, as well as becoming a better leader, doing all the little things that helps the Capitals win, on top of his goal scoring prowess.

I'll credit Korn for turning Holtby into the Vezina winner and the best/second best goaltender in the NHL in less than two seasons after a horrible 2014 campaign.

A lot of teams would kill to have our coaching staff.

 

[txpd]

Prior was a pretty strong goalie coach and developed three pretty good goaltenders in a row. I am not sure Holtby doesnt get to where he is now with Prior as his coach. I give Kolzig credit for saving Holtby from Oates. I give Korn credit for finishing the refining.

Its Oates that drives me crazy. Costing the team Prior and nearly costing them Holtby.

 

[Langway]

Management isn't going to get real credit until they reach a Conference Final for once. Having Ovechkin for a decade and not doing so does not reflect well on anyone. Not breaking a GOAT is not an accomplishment. The pieces are mostly in place...and yet no one should be surprised if they can't figure it out again and again given how difficult it has been for them.

Something in this apparent plateau of theirs needs to change. They can't swap out a couple depth forwards and hope problem solved. There's a mental and perhaps development component that seems very elusive and their approach generally seems a bit behind the times. All of which is not to say that management doesn't have their successes because they certainly do. They're a competitive franchise, just one with a history of disappointing when it matters most (and at this point that's about all that matters). It's all about getting over the hump and short of doing so everything else is open to be called into question.

 

[txpd]

i see. When saying that the management and coaches of the Caps cant develop players they cant take credit for developing any good players because they havent made a conference final?

Ovechkin isnt a good player because he hasnt won a cup and Carlson and Holtby arent really good players because the Caps have failed to make a CF?

Failure at drafting and developing is the Oilers. Not the Capitals. Yea, the Caps have not been a complete success. Yet, they have been good enough to give the team a reasonable to quality chance to win a Cup every year since 07 08. Ask Oiler fans or Calgary fans Minnesota fans or Islanders fans if they would take that.

This season. The Caps have a legit shot to win the Cup. Carlson is good. Holtby is good. Hell Johansson is good. So are Alzner and Schmidt and Beagle. All players that the Caps have developed.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

i see. When saying that the management and coaches of the Caps cant develop players they cant take credit for developing any good players because they havent made a conference final?

Ovechkin isnt a good player because he hasnt won a cup and Carlson and Holtby arent really good players because the Caps have failed to make a CF?

Failure at drafting and developing is the Oilers. Not the Capitals. Yea, the Caps have not been a complete success. Yet, they have been good enough to give the team a reasonable to quality chance to win a Cup every year since 07 08. Ask Oiler fans or Calgary fans Minnesota fans or Islanders fans if they would take that.

This season. The Caps have a legit shot to win the Cup. Carlson is good. Holtby is good. Hell Johansson is good. So are Alzner and Schmidt and Beagle. All players that the Caps have developed.

I agree, just because we have failed in the post season doesn't mean we aren't good at developing and drafting. I don't see any relationship between the two. Development and drafting isn't the reason why the Capitals fail time and time again. Most players have been developed correctly and could not have been much better than they are now.

 

[Langway]

All of which is not to say that management doesn't have their successes because they certainly do.

Only one person requires quoting recent posts for not apparently reading them. No one is saying they're a train wreck like Edmonton and need to start over. But I have made the Iginla in Calgary comparison before and Ovechkin has a much better supporting cast than that. You'd be hard-pressed to find as good a team as this to not get so far, just based off of 1W/1C/2C/1G. 1D is maybe not truly dominant enough but, c'mon, the pieces are mostly in place. Their near-term chances are very much on the backs of their youth's development--Kuznetsov, Burakovsky, Wilson, Orlov and Schmidt--and them breaking through to put them over the top. Add Connolly and Vrana to that list should additional scoring-line presence be needed over Wilson or due to injury. They're all developmental imperatives and that's mostly the reality of the cap era (made more pronounced by one fairly big mistaken contract).

Consistently crumbling at big stages can't be disregarded. Those are the ultimate moments of truth and they've consistently been tight and seemingly ill-prepared to handle the pressure or intensity. As pros, big moments like that shouldn't sneak up on them so consistently. Their drafting alone puts them in an incredible position to be a very strong regular season team and a perennial contender on paper. But the developmental aspect is crucial and, yes, the ultimate referendum is in them getting over that hump. Everything short of that is nice window dressing but it isn't the ultimate goal. They have said as much what their focus is and it's on them to prepare and execute accordingly. Making meaningful mental headway toward that ultimate goal is about all that matters. The groundwork can be laid in the regular season but that's about all it's useful for. I doubt if you'd ask the core group they'd disagree. Their successes are apparent and something they can draw confidence from but it's always the cutting edge challenges that define an organization. They've been a bit stuck and it's on everyone to help surpass that and achieve more.