Speculation: Acq./Rost. Bldg./Cap/Lines etc. Part LXXIV (Arbitration Season)

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g00n

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from http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2094161
 

SpinningEdge

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Feb 12, 2015
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Williams was one of the worst caps in the playoffs this year. It was a fine signing. Yes, Caps got Oshie but gave up another guy they had in top 6, a top prospect, and a draft pick.

Add Oshie and Williams but lost Green, Brouwer, Fehr, and Ward.... You trying to tell me Caps got better that way? It's a push id say. Top 6 was fine - but once again bottom 6 had to have someone like Richards come in and center. Sorry, but you're not getting secondary scoring with Richards and Beagle centering those lines.

Also, I'm not against some of the moves he has made - it's mainly the moves he hasn't made. He hasn't just went and got a player - a real difference maker. For each person he's added - he's basically given up similar value in return. The only additions without giving up similar roster players have been minor like Weber/Glencross/etc. Things that did nothing.... Or has overpaid big time (over 11 million for Orpik and Nisky).

I just want to see the top guys get real help. Just once. That's all. Eller and Connolly aren't going to lead this Caps team to 3 more series wins this year.... Unless Cals win the lottery - and by now Caps know luck is never on their side.


I'm not trying to be difficult or anyone - and trust me - I wish I did like GMBM and believed in him. My opinion is just that I don't see anything that impresses me or his past work showing me he's really different. Only thing he's done differently than GMGM is overpay for 2 defenders thus far. All other moves like adding Williams is just like adding Ribeiro, etc. I just want so badly to see this team win a cup before Ovi's prime is completely wasted away..... Or at least get closer than 2nd round :(
 
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Langway

In den Wolken
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Copley was hardly a top prospect and they recovered the pick when they moved down a couple spots in the first round. Brouwer had no real business in the Caps top six even if he was more than adequate there for the Blues. The Caps got softer last year and it's still a pretty big issue given that they never adapted towards playing a faster or more skilled game.

Yes, they still need to restructure somewhat. No, it's not really the salary cap limiting what they can do. If they've been prepared to sign Johansson for around $4M or just keep him at arbitration price for a year then there's no excuse. They decide how they're structured and be it personnel or tactics it's still largely a matter of convenience. The projected money given to all of Johansson, Orpik, Orlov and Winnik could be put to better use. That's most likely over 20% of the cap between those four players.

Not CBOing Laich was maybe MacLellan's biggest mistake in not being sufficiently gangsta.
 

hockeyfan88

Registered User
Dec 14, 2015
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The fact people still put all the blame on GMBM's shoulders and give Trotz a free pass is mind blowing to me.

And I disagree: having a real structured forward corps can be the difference, as long as the coach plays his hand correctly.
 

Stewie G

Needed more hitting!
Oct 19, 2009
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Williams was one of the worst caps in the playoffs this year. It was a fine signing. Yes, Caps got Oshie but gave up another guy they had in top 6, a top prospect, and a draft pick.

Add Oshie and Williams but lost Green, Brouwer, Fehr, and Ward.... You trying to tell me Caps got better that way? It's a push id say. Top 6 was fine - but once again bottom 6 had to have someone like Richards come in and center. Sorry, but you're not getting secondary scoring with Richards and Beagle centering those lines.

Also, I'm not against some of the moves he has made - it's mainly the moves he hasn't made. He hasn't just went and got a player - a real difference maker. For each person he's added - he's basically given up similar value in return. The only additions without giving up similar roster players have been minor like Weber/Glencross/etc. Things that did nothing.... Or has overpaid big time (over 11 million for Orpik and Nisky).

I just want to see the top guys get real help. Just once. That's all. Eller and Connolly aren't going to lead this Caps team to 3 more series wins this year.... Unless Cals win the lottery - and by now Caps know luck is never on their side.


I'm not trying to be difficult or anyone - and trust me - I wish I did like GMBM and believed in him. My opinion is just that I don't see anything that impresses me or his past work showing me he's really different. Only thing he's done differently than GMGM is overpay for 2 defenders thus far. All other moves like adding Williams is just like adding Ribeiro, etc. I just want so badly to see this team win a cup before Ovi's prime is completely wasted away..... Or at least get closer than 2nd round :(
I don't think we're going to agree here. You are using hindsight and judging results and not process for the most part.
 

Ridley Simon

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Feb 27, 2002
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Williams was one of the worst caps in the playoffs this year. It was a fine signing. Yes, Caps got Oshie but gave up another guy they had in top 6, a top prospect, and a draft pick.

Add Oshie and Williams but lost Green, Brouwer, Fehr, and Ward.... You trying to tell me Caps got better that way? It's a push id say. Top 6 was fine - but once again bottom 6 had to have someone like Richards come in and center. Sorry, but you're not getting secondary scoring with Richards and Beagle centering those lines.

Also, I'm not against some of the moves he has made - it's mainly the moves he hasn't made. He hasn't just went and got a player - a real difference maker. For each person he's added - he's basically given up similar value in return. The only additions without giving up similar roster players have been minor like Weber/Glencross/etc. Things that did nothing.... Or has overpaid big time (over 11 million for Orpik and Nisky).

I just want to see the top guys get real help. Just once. That's all. Eller and Connolly aren't going to lead this Caps team to 3 more series wins this year.... Unless Cals win the lottery - and by now Caps know luck is never on their side.


I'm not trying to be difficult or anyone - and trust me - I wish I did like GMBM and believed in him. My opinion is just that I don't see anything that impresses me or his past work showing me he's really different. Only thing he's done differently than GMGM is overpay for 2 defenders thus far. All other moves like adding Williams is just like adding Ribeiro, etc. I just want so badly to see this team win a cup before Ovi's prime is completely wasted away..... Or at least get closer than 2nd round :(

Like I said. You are angry and won't see any other logic.

There's a salary cap. I'm sure you've heard of it. I guess they should have tried to get Okposo to agree to Eller's salary slot? You always ignore the salary cap.

How can GMBM have been there,but not responsible for Trotz? That's just plain wrong. He was one of the main recruiters of Barry....and was part of why Ted gave him the job. Go read articles about it.

So...along with not signing Okposo for 4m a year....should GMBM have traded for Weber or Subban? Maybe using Orpik or something?

Or have not signed Laich to that anchor contract, that prohibited any real adds last summer or last season? (Oh wait. That was George)

Let see what the MaJo and Orlov situations turn in to. Or is the off season over already?

And you are alone, find me one more legitimate poster that thinks Brian is the same as George, and that their reigns are the same.
 

Ridley Simon

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The fact people still put all the blame on GMBM's shoulders and give Trotz a free pass is mind blowing to me.

And I disagree: having a real structured forward corps can be the difference, as long as the coach plays his hand correctly.

Trotz has not gotten a free pass, in fact Brian called him out on it. (But this discussion is Brian v George, not Barry v George)

George had 17years. New guys have had what time frame again?
 

Ridley Simon

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
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Copley was hardly a top prospect and they recovered the pick when they moved down a couple spots in the first round. Brouwer had no real business in the Caps top six even if he was more than adequate there for the Blues. The Caps got softer last year and it's still a pretty big issue given that they never adapted towards playing a faster or more skilled game.

Yes, they still need to restructure somewhat. No, it's not really the salary cap limiting what they can do. If they've been prepared to sign Johansson for around $4M or just keep him at arbitration price for a year then there's no excuse. They decide how they're structured and be it personnel or tactics it's still largely a matter of convenience. The projected money given to all of Johansson, Orpik, Orlov and Winnik could be put to better use. That's most likely over 20% of the cap between those four players.

Not CBOing Laich was maybe MacLellan's biggest mistake in not being sufficiently gangsta.

Copley was 4th G at best, in the system....to your point.

I didn't like any of the high priced FA's this year, so "missing" out on them was no real loss (I like Demers deal). We have yet to see how the MaJo and Orlov situation unfold. If they get them at realistic numbers, then perhaps a trade can happen. I'm not sure who...in trade that were moved....would have made much sense for Caps?

Would have been Carlson to get Weber or Subban...and added salary

Would have been Carlson or Alzner to get Hall.

Didn't have room to sign Yandle or Goligoski.

No room for Okposo, Nielson, Stamkos, Lucic, or any of the other 6m forwards.

What other deals were made that the Caps should have been involved in? I'm sure I'm missing something as I'm doing this off the top of my head. Serious question.
 

hb12xchamps

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Dec 23, 2011
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Pennsylvania
I don't get the hate for GMBM?

He has constantly identified team needs and addressed those needs.

-Needed an upgrade on defense in year one? Signs Niskanen and Orpik
-Wants to shake up the top 6? Signs Williams to less than he probably could have gotten from other teams on the market and dumps Brouwer+ for Oshie and then regains part of that + by trading down at the draft.
-He let Mike Green walk knowing he wouldn't be worth the money he got on the open market. Very smart move as he sucked ass for Detroit last year.
-Laich's contract anchoring down the team? Dumps him at the TDL for a pretty good deal for both sides.
-3C needs an upgrade? Spends assets that aren't going to help the team now and gets Lars Eller. Plus, he signed Richards for a nothing contract in season, although it didn't work out.

The core players being McPhee's is a weak argument because he amassed that core over years and the advice of the staff that is still in place in Washington. GMBM hasn't had that amount of time yet and he hasn't drafted nearly as high as a lot of those "core" McPhee picks were.
 

twabby

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Mar 9, 2010
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GMBM has made many good moves but let's not pretend he's flawless either. He grossly overpaid for Orpik (which has limited roster flexibility to this day) and his trade deadlines have been less than ideal. I'd like to see him be more aggressive during the season if any holes need to be filled.
 

Langway

In den Wolken
Jul 7, 2006
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Didn't have room to sign Yandle or Goligoski.

No room for Okposo, Nielson, Stamkos, Lucic, or any of the other 6m forwards.

What other deals were made that the Caps should have been involved in? I'm sure I'm missing something as I'm doing this off the top of my head. Serious question.
They had room if they wanted to make it. They seemingly chose value and a speculative buy low 3C add in Eller to use their free space on and are content to bring back the rest of the roster plus Connolly and maybe a rookie winger if they earn it. We'll see what happens with 90 and 9 but it's setting up to be MacLellan's quietest off-season to date.

As far as free agents go Stempniak looks like quality value. I think Hudler could be as well, although there were some concerning trends last season. He was battling a groin injury and that's tough for a smaller guy that isn't going to overpower people.

Ultimately I think it's the blueline that's still pretty questionable when it comes to being Cup level. They're banking on experience making the difference when that's a tough hill to climb in short order. Plus, their ongoing general hockey sense and consistency issues. A splashier sequence of personnel moves wouldn't have solved that but I'd like a bit more urgency. Maybe that waits until next summer. They're kind of running out of time in being able to shift pieces around correctly without ending up having to bank on guys Vrana and Bowey to come through and make a difference on the cheap.
 

Alexander the Gr8

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May 2, 2013
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GMBM has done his job for me. Letting Green go was the right thing to do, so was trading Brouwer for Oshie. Ward was replaced with Williams, they're worth roughly the same. Only Fehr wasn't properly replaced, but now he has been with the addition of Eller. He traded Laich, and I think he'll end up dumping Winnik somewhere to get a massive upgrade in the lineup at the TDL.

He overpaid for Orpik but it was at a time during which our defense was horrible beyond Carlson and Alzner. Nisky is worth his contract. Many Ds in his price range aren't as good as him. He did a fine job replacing Carlson when he was injured. He was very good in the playoffs, didn't score but solid as a rock defensively.

Signed Holtby to a sweet deal, and he has emerged as the league's best this year. It's up to Trotz and the players to get the job done, it's that simple. On paper, we should be able to win more games than we have in the playoffs.
 

Devil Dancer

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Jan 21, 2006
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Outside of Orpik, my only problem with GMBM is his drafting, and I could be wrong about that in the long term, since his picks haven't had time to play out yet.

I'd like to see him leverage Samsonov rather than keeping him in-house for the long term. I'm still annoyed with that pick, along with the Walker debacle.
 

hockeykicker

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Dec 3, 2014
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Outside of Orpik, my only problem with GMBM is his drafting, and I could be wrong about that in the long term, since his picks haven't had time to play out yet.

I'd like to see him leverage Samsonov rather than keeping him in-house for the long term. I'm still annoyed with that pick, along with the Walker debacle.

does he even draft? thought mahoney did that
 

Ridley Simon

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Feb 27, 2002
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They had room if they wanted to make it. They seemingly chose value and a speculative buy low 3C add in Eller to use their free space on and are content to bring back the rest of the roster plus Connolly and maybe a rookie winger if they earn it. We'll see what happens with 90 and 9 but it's setting up to be MacLellan's quietest off-season to date.

As far as free agents go Stempniak looks like quality value. I think Hudler could be as well, although there were some concerning trends last season. He was battling a groin injury and that's tough for a smaller guy that isn't going to overpower people.

Ultimately I think it's the blueline that's still pretty questionable when it comes to being Cup level. They're banking on experience making the difference when that's a tough hill to climb in short order. Plus, their ongoing general hockey sense and consistency issues. A splashier sequence of personnel moves wouldn't have solved that but I'd like a bit more urgency. Maybe that waits until next summer. They're kind of running out of time in being able to shift pieces around correctly without ending up having to bank on guys Vrana and Bowey to come through and make a difference on the cheap.

Kinda yes, kinda no. Only if he wanted to jettison MaJo. Or a combo or Orlov and Winnik. Or Orpik in some manner.

Should he have? Dunno, maybe. MaJo out would have allowed an Okposo (sans Eller). Does MaJo + Eller = Okposo + 1.5 player? That's a good Q. Depends on Eller, it would seem.

How much of Okposo was Tavares. How much of Lucic was his centers.

Rest of said FA forwards were Eriksson, Backes, Radulov, Ladd. All 6m or so. Nielson was 5.25. So trade those for MaJo and Eller, and add a Stempniak.

Is that better?
 

Hivemind

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does he even draft? thought mahoney did that
Nobody outside the organization is precisely sure how the Capitals draft board functions, and who gets the final say. We do know Mahoney had a lot of sway and we do know that George was the one who pulled the trigger on any draft trades (although interviews imply he certainly took advice from Mahoney when considering pick/prospect value).

That being said, George should get credit for getting Mahoney and putting him in a position to succeed, even if you don't believe GMGM had any say on the draft board itself. Mahoney wasn't exactly a seasoned pro at the time he was hired, he only had three years of scouting experience in Buffalo before Washington hired him to be the director of amateur scouting. McPhee convinced Ted to allow him to bring in a new scout, and made a good pick when he did it. Then around the time of the firesale/rebuild, he convinced Ted to allow him to invest more into the scouting department, and you can see pretty much immediately results. The Caps' draft fortunes improved dramatically around that time when compared to their misses in 2000/2001/2003 and lukewarm draft in 2002.

It's probably a good thing that Leonsis/MacLellan promoted Mahoney to assistant GM. Otherwise McPhee could have poached Mahoney by offering him an AGM job in Vegas. Now McPhee can't offer him any more than a lateral move, which the Capitals have no real obligation to allow Mahoney to interview for (assuming Mahoney is still under contract).
 

Holtbyisms

Matt Irwin is a legit talent
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I always get a kick out of when people start talking salary cap and assuming we could have had player X instead of what we have. Not all UFA's want to come to DC.
 

Langway

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http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/hoc...capitals?_ga=1.260154253.128926864.1410032569
The Capitals were rumored to offer Sanford some guaranteed time in the NHL next season as extra incentive to sign.
Interesting little detail there. I don't think they could even promise the same for DiPauli and it's probably not realistic to unconditionally guarantee that to Sanford either. But it goes to show the leverage these college players have as they inch closer to the free agent option.

Yes, not all UFA want to come to Washington but if you take yourself out of the running it's impossible to know. I'm not saying this UFA class was great overall but UFA inflation has dampened down the past two years. The LW group in particular wasn't great but they did have some options if they wanted to change the mix to a greater extent. They restricted themselves to a Connolly level signing from the outset it seems with a very specific and cheap shortlist. It suggests they're content seeing 90 through for another season and not much else happening. As much as they want to hold the line on 90's contract, they also allotted for it to the point where kicking it down the road another year is acceptable. They still have another, oh, eight months or so to finalize the roster for the next run but for now a lot rides on Eller breaking out and strides made by their youth.
 

Ridley Simon

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http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/hoc...capitals?_ga=1.260154253.128926864.1410032569

Interesting little detail there. I don't think they could even promise the same for DiPauli and it's probably not realistic to unconditionally guarantee that to Sanford either. But it goes to show the leverage these college players have as they inch closer to the free agent option.

Yes, not all UFA want to come to Washington but if you take yourself out of the running it's impossible to know. I'm not saying this UFA class was great overall but UFA inflation has dampened down the past two years. The LW group in particular wasn't great but they did have some options if they wanted to change the mix to a greater extent. They restricted themselves to a Connolly level signing from the outset it seems with a very specific and cheap shortlist. It suggests they're content seeing 90 through for another season and not much else happening. As much as they want to hold the line on 90's contract, they also allotted for it to the point where kicking it down the road another year is acceptable. They still have another, oh, eight months or so to finalize the roster for the next run but for now a lot rides on Eller breaking out and strides made by their youth.

True. But we are also "forgetting" that the team was a hairs breadth away from ECF and probably SCF (not to mention regular season juggernaut).

Not a lot more needs to happen for them to be in a really good spot, regardless. And frankly the next "on fire hot" team just needs to come through another division to allow progress. Pittsburgh will most likely not repeat their "roll", as most teams don't, and teams will also figure out to play them better.

Caps need to hold their level of play, with some upticks, to really be hard to beat. Frankly, they are already hard to beat....but its shades of gray now, as to where it ends up.

And back to your original premise, pre Draft/UFA moves, is that much of the changes may just need to come from Trotz and the way they attack the game. If that happens, it probably won't matter a lick what MaJo, Eller, or Orlov do.

We'd be very hard pressed to find any teams that wouldn't trade spots with us, right now.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
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True. But we are also "forgetting" that the team was a hairs breadth away from ECF and probably SCF (not to mention regular season juggernaut).

Not a lot more needs to happen for them to be in a really good spot, regardless. And frankly the next "on fire hot" team just needs to come through another division to allow progress. Pittsburgh will most likely not repeat their "roll", as most teams don't, and teams will also figure out to play them better.

Caps need to hold their level of play, with some upticks, to really be hard to beat. Frankly, they are already hard to beat....but its shades of gray now, as to where it ends up.

And back to your original premise, pre Draft/UFA moves, is that much of the changes may just need to come from Trotz and the way they attack the game. If that happens, it probably won't matter a lick what MaJo, Eller, or Orlov do.

We'd be very hard pressed to find any teams that wouldn't trade spots with us, right now.


It's funny how we went from missing the playoffs and many just hoping the change in leadership doesn't make things WORSE... to acting like we're owed a Cup... in 2 years.

Almost making the ECF in the first year, and probably overachieving a bit, really raised expectations.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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It's funny how we went from missing the playoffs and many just hoping the change in leadership doesn't make things WORSE... to acting like we're owed a Cup... in 2 years.

Almost making the ECF in the first year, and probably overachieving a bit, really raised expectations.

Its also funny how with the expectation now in place that the coach that made that jump from missing the playoffs is the reason they havent gotten that owed cup and needs to be fired.
 

Langway

In den Wolken
Jul 7, 2006
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Oh, please. This team has been on the cusp for eight years already. Expectations shouldn't be lowered due to recent mismanagement, esp. given their regular season performances and the rise of Holtby. There is no bigger poster child for coming up short in the playoffs over the past decade than these Washington Capitals.

Ultimately it seems like Trotz just isn't the guy to win a Cup with so you might as well stack as much talent as possible and shake up the team further by introducing new players with different skill sets and habits. If you believe Trotz will figure it out then I guess largely the same cast is fine. Younger players are bound to develop to some extent. But we've seen enough and heard enough subsequently to doubt whether he has that elusive killer instinct either.
 

SpinningEdge

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Feb 12, 2015
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It's funny how we went from missing the playoffs and many just hoping the change in leadership doesn't make things WORSE... to acting like we're owed a Cup... in 2 years.

Almost making the ECF in the first year, and probably overachieving a bit, really raised expectations.

I agree with waht you're saying - but it still sucks now even getting close.

ECF in the first year? Caps didn't make the ECF. They made second rd two years in a row.

We didn't go from being a team that didn't have the talent to make the playoffs. We were terrible under Oates and he was the worst coach possibly ever in the NHL (i know that's exaggerated - but he was awful). Caps didn't make the playoffs because of his bad coaching and front office disasters when trying to add depth under the Caps core players.

Let's not act like GMBM took over a team that wasn't talented and that's why the Caps didn't make the playoffs. He took over a team that had made the playoffs multiple times with Alzner, Carlson, Holtby, Ovi, and Backstrom as the top guys.... same top guys he has now 3 years later.

Caps have missed the playoffs like once over the past 10 or 11 years. GMBM didn't take over a rebuilding team...

Pitt was in danger of not even making the playoffs 7 months ago and ended up winning the Cup b/c front office/coaching adjustments. So yes, 2 years of 2nd rd losses is not something to be happy about when you have what some experts say "the most balanced top to bottom team in the NHL".

Also, things haven't gotten worse - but they certainly haven't gotten better. Sure, having a proven NHL coach in Trotz is nice and the team plays as a team better (and Trotz is great)... and winning a ton in October, November, and December is nice - but the end results haven't been any better at all - and time with the core they've been trying to win with for the better part of a decade is running out. People can say we were close this year and bla bla bla - but we hear that every second rd loss. ALso, if you go back and watch the Pitt/Wash game - Pitt was BY FAR the team that controlled that series. Possession, shots, coaching, their system, etc were all better than the Caps that series.

It's time to win NOW - but we've added Eller and Connolly while losing Chimera.... :banghead:
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
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Its also funny how with the expectation now in place that the coach that made that jump from missing the playoffs is the reason they havent gotten that owed cup and needs to be fired.

I don't think analysis of the coaching is the same as analysis of the roster moves by the GM. You only get a few moves per year for a GM, whereas a coach is making strategy and line decisions constantly for 82+ games per year.

Did the GM address the needs well?

vs

Has the coach been getting the most out of the players and adjusting to the situation?



Two different considerations.
 
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