Salary Cap: A lump of Cole will be Love and Joy to some team on a Daley basis

[Nakawick]

So two players we traded have gone on waivers.

 

[joeyjake5]

Scuderi on waivers. Do we put in a claim?

Maybe trade him for the next Daley?

NO, NO. If there is a hockey God, he should force Shero to claim scuds.

 

[SEALBound]

NO, NO. If there is a hockey God, he should force Shero to claim scuds.

Maatta and Dumoulin both need security blankets. And we need leadership.

 

[joeyjake5]

If shero claims him, the devils will have their " piece ".

 

[Riptide]

Both you and jaded seem to be fine with 25 goals. I have no idea why either of you are fine with that. 25 goals for a mostly one dimensional winger should not cost $7MM. It just shouldn't. For Phil to live up to that contract, he needs to be potting 35 goals and 65+ points.

What % of those are on the PP? Because he's no longer the trigger man like he was in Toronto. Again, we need to move past the numbers and look at what he should provide in the playoffs - and that's another highly skilled offensive forward that teams cannot ignore. Someone who can create offense and make plays with the best in the league - and players like that cost money.

So no, I'm not going to freak out and ***** if he scores less than 35 goals here on a regular basis - because ultimately what we're looking for out of him is to create more space for his center. And he doesn't have to be scoring to do that - as long as he's scoring enough to force the other teams to respect him, then we're still coming out ahead even if he's only scoring 25 goals a season.

 

[Riptide]

I understand the thought process, but I guess I'll believe it when I see it. I haven't seen Kessel beat too many guys one on one. It's all come down to blowing past someone. The playoffs tend to be less wide open, so it may be a challenge for Hags and Kessel to get free. Hopefully they can exploit some match ups and with quick transition one of them can blow the zone for chances.

That's the joy of it though - they don't 'need' to get free. Just them doing what they're doing with speed will create additional time and space for their center. That's not something Neal could do on a regular basis.

 

[Riptide]

If he goes to the AHL, how does that affect the salary Pittsburgh retained?

I have no clue what they'll do with him. If they send him to the AHL or if someone claims him, we'll still be covering 1/3 of his total cap. His 1-way deal means he gets his $3.375 salary regardless of what league he is in.

The fact that it's not a 2 way deal doesn't really matter. He has an NHL contract with a 3.375m cap hit (usually the only players that get 2 way deals are not making much money, in which case you're talking more about the 950k credit then salary retention and all that).

Any player who's cap hit is over 950k and is sent to the minors, the team gets 950k deducted and the rest counts towards that teams cap (eg player has a 1.5m cap hit and is sent to the minors - player still counts for 550k towards the cap). For CHI in this example, PIT is retaining 30% (1.1m). So if he's not claimed (doubt it), even if he's in the minors he'll still count for 1.25m against the cap for this season.

In an ideal world CHI would either buy him out this summer (we'd have a penalty of 600k and 300k - iirc). Otherwise it wouldn't surprise me to see CHI try and trade him while retaining salary. Wouldn't save them much, but could save them a bit.

Yes but doesn't the cap change a bit if he is waived and sent down? I forget how much we would have saved on his cap had we waived him, so do we see any of those "savings"?

No. Only CHI would see those savings. PIT will be on the hook for 1.1m this year and next regardless of what happens to him or what league he's in - unless he's bought out. Then we see 30% of the buyout penalty (and pay 30% of the money).

 

[Shady Machine]

The playoffs were less wide open when he was there with Boston and Toronto too though, and he made it work. He was also excellent in the Olympics. I just don't believe that he has gotten worse at hockey. I trust his last month where he's scored 10 in 12 more than the 3/4 of the season before that because 10 in 12 is more in line with the player he has been for about a decade.



It would be nice. But if he doesn't, even in this year's playoffs, I would still expect him to come in and be a great hockey player for us next year. If we want to win this year, you're right. We need him to produce to win. But if we have to wait until next season for that to really happen, so be it. A full mediocre season here won't be enough to convince me he can't work here.

If he sucks in this year's playoffs, why would you be confident that he will be great next year?

 

[Shady Machine]

Back to the actual deadline talk and not Kessel talk, I'm surprised with how quiet everything has been so far. There was the Phaneuf for scraps deal last week, but that is all that has happened both in rumors and actual trades. I don't know why it's so quiet right now.

So many teams are in the playoff hunt still. In the east, all but 4 are within 6 points of a wildcard spot and all but 3 in the West. Of the 7 left, only Edmonton, Buffalo, Columbus, and Toronto can claim the tanking angle to their fan base. Those teams are going to want to wait until close to the deadline to make their moves.

I agree the rumors are kind of lacking, but parity is the reason.

 

[Shady Machine]

What % of those are on the PP? Because he's no longer the trigger man like he was in Toronto. Again, we need to move past the numbers and look at what he should provide in the playoffs - and that's another highly skilled offensive forward that teams cannot ignore. Someone who can create offense and make plays with the best in the league - and players like that cost money.

So no, I'm not going to freak out and ***** if he scores less than 35 goals here on a regular basis - because ultimately what we're looking for out of him is to create more space for his center. And he doesn't have to be scoring to do that - as long as he's scoring enough to force the other teams to respect him, then we're still coming out ahead even if he's only scoring 25 goals a season.

I said in another post that he's on pace for 19 ES goals. That's lower than his Toronto averages.

As for 'creating space' for his centers without producing, you would need to see a material increase in someone's production to actually measure that. So far, we haven't seen it. I'm giving a critical analysis of what we've seen of Phil so far, not what he is capable of doing. Until he does it, it's okay to be critical of him.

I never said freak out and ***** by the way. I said 25 goals would be a disappointment. I mean, I guess if he had 25 goals and 40+ assists, I'd be happy enough, but not 25 goals, 50ish points.

 

[Riptide]

I said in another post that he's on pace for 19 ES goals. That's lower than his Toronto averages.

Sure it is. But again, he's no longer the player that the offense flows through, and that is going to affect his point totals. Personally I'm not going to get too worked up about his production, as I want to see how it translates in the playoffs.

And even if he has a poor playoffs, the bigger emphases will be on next season and beyond.

 

[chethejet]

If Scuderi is bought out this summer, the Pens who are on the hook for close to 1.1 million will get a 30% reduction on the cost of carry correct? So all in all, the Pens still are paying for the Daley at least two more years after this year. Cole has to go in the off season and no way the Pens can keep both. Pens need to clean up things as to the cap room. Kunitz, Cole for sure. JR needs to quit signing roster fillers for 2 and 3 million. Need to play the younger guys and develop depth with in the organization.

 

[BeautiPhil]

My issues with Phil thus far have been his inability to handle passes, his tendency to peel outside along the boards and take a weak bad angle shot as opposed to storming the middle or using his speed to challenge on go by a defender. He isnt playing like the Kessel I've seen before, and it is frustrating. I'm willing to have some patience but he needs to figure things out before next years deadline for sure.

I really want to see him with Crosby though, and really exhaust all possibilities with him.

 

[BeautiPhil]

If Scuderi is bought out this summer, the Pens who are on the hook for close to 1.1 million will get a 30% reduction on the cost of carry correct? So all in all, the Pens still are paying for the Daley at least two more years after this year. Cole has to go in the off season and no way the Pens can keep both. Pens need to clean up things as to the cap room. Kunitz, Cole for sure. JR needs to quit signing roster fillers for 2 and 3 million. Need to play the younger guys and develop depth with in the organization.

We don't have good young talent to develop since we piss away draft picks on rentals every year.

 

[Shady Machine]

Sure it is. But again, he's no longer the player that the offense flows through, and that is going to affect his point totals. Personally I'm not going to get too worked up about his production, as I want to see how it translates in the playoffs.

And even if he has a poor playoffs, the bigger emphases will be on next season and beyond.

So your expectation when Pittsburgh acquired him was that his point production would go down? Maybe down from his 80 point seasons, but down from last year?

 

[Shrimper]

Watch the Devils claim him

 

[Riptide]

If Scuderi is bought out this summer, the Pens who are on the hook for close to 1.1 million will get a 30% reduction on the cost of carry correct? So all in all, the Pens still are paying for the Daley at least two more years after this year. Cole has to go in the off season and no way the Pens can keep both. Pens need to clean up things as to the cap room. Kunitz, Cole for sure. JR needs to quit signing roster fillers for 2 and 3 million. Need to play the younger guys and develop depth with in the organization.

If he's bought out, Pittsburgh will pay 30% of whatever the buyout is and be hit with 30% of the buyout penalty. If I recall correctly the buyout is 1.8m and 900k. So PIT would be hit with ~600k and 300k.

Honestly I'm not seeing him get bought out this summer - unless he specifically has a NMC that prevents him from going to the minors, CHI can bury him in the minors for a ~1.2m hit next season and be done with it. Little point in buying him out and being hit with the same ~1.2m this year and 600k next year. But it would probably be in our best interest if he was bought out - as a 300k hit for that 2nd year is nothing.

 

[SEALBound]

Sure it is. But again, he's no longer the player that the offense flows through, and that is going to affect his point totals. Personally I'm not going to get too worked up about his production, as I want to see how it translates in the playoffs.

And even if he has a poor playoffs, the bigger emphases will be on next season and beyond.

I don't believe there was an expectation to see his production drop. If anything, I'd bet there was an expectation to see it rise give his two center options.

If management was okay with seeing production go down then I believe we targeted the wrong guy.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't believe there was an expectation to see his production drop. If anything, I'd bet there was an expectation to see it rise give his two center options.

If management was okay with seeing production go down then I believe we targeted the wrong guy.

Exactly. Well said. If you are paying your top 2 centers 9MM a piece, you don't acquire a 7MM winger whose production will drop while playing with those centers. Instead, you bring in a 3-4MM winger that will produce like a 5-6MM guy with Sid or Geno.

I highly doubt JR and Co got Kessel and thought "well as long as he puts up 50 points..."

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Only on this board can you be scoffed at for wanting a guy that usually scores 30+ goals to score 30+ goals. With two of the best centers in the world.

 

[Riptide]

So your expectation when Pittsburgh acquired him was that his point production would go down? Maybe down from his 80 point seasons, but down from last year?

No, I expected him to produce more - at least in the 30/60+ range. But then I expected our entire team to produce more then it did under MJ. I'm just saying that it's not the end of the world if he's not producing that, as long as he's doing things that allow his center/line to succeed.

Has he been better lately? Yes. And while it coincides with Hagelin arriving, there was a piece that DK did a few weeks ago that said that someone in management pulled Kessel aside and give him **** for his whimsical ways, and that after that his play improved.

 

[Riptide]

Exactly. Well said. If you are paying your top 2 centers 9MM a piece, you don't acquire a 7MM winger whose production will drop while playing with those centers. Instead, you bring in a 3-4MM winger that will produce like a 5-6MM guy with Sid or Geno.

I highly doubt JR and Co got Kessel and thought "well as long as he puts up 50 points..."

The problem with those 3-4m guys is that they will do little to assist Crosby/Malkin in the playoffs. They're not going to create much time/space for them and they're not regularly going to be making plays for their lines. I mean we've all *****ed about KCD for years for those exact reasons - and that's exactly what Crosby had - two 3-4m wingers who produced like a 5-6m guy for several years. Then did nothing in the playoffs when Crosby was shutdown.

 

[Riptide]

Anyway, someone post up a new thread.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Has he been better lately? Yes. And while it coincides with Hagelin arriving, there was a piece that DK did a few weeks ago that said that someone in management pulled Kessel aside and give him **** for his whimsical ways, and that after that his play improved.

He's been producing about the same. He had 7 shots against Carolina and his goal was much needed. That's the exception though. Other than that game it's been the usual from him.