Salary Cap: A lump of Cole will be Love and Joy to some team on a Daley basis

[Shady Machine]

Kessel played very well (30+ goals in regular season and point per game in the playoffs) with Marc Savard when Savard was the guy the plays ran through. Its something he can do. Its just a huge transition from what he's been doing in Toronto for years.

He's a scorer. Nights where he doesn't score, he's likely not going to look very good. But he absolutely is getting better here. Just like the rest of the team, Kessel's scoring is becoming more and more consistent as the season goes on.

Sorry, but the second part isn't true. He has put up almost identical points with MJ vs Sully.

 

[Hossa die Waldfee]

Sorry, but the second part isn't true. He has put up almost identical points with MJ vs Sully.

I guess he is talking about the last ~15 games. Not the entire time with Sully. Feels like Kessel scoring (many assists) came with the Hagelin acquisition. I won't give him flack while he is playing with a fourth line center and I did like their play with Malkin. We could compensate Bonino's injury very well because Fehr could play 3rd line center very well, but imo we can't compensate a Geno injury while Bonino is hurt. Bonino imo has the offensive smarts to play top 6 center for a while, but nobody else on the team, besides the two obvious choices.

 

[Shady Machine]

I guess he is talking about the last ~15 games. Not the entire time with Sully. Feels like Kessel scoring (many assists) came with the Hagelin acquisition. I won't give him flack while he is playing with a fourth line center and I did like their play with Malkin. We could compensate Bonino's injury very well because Fehr could play 3rd line center very well, but imo we can't compensate a Geno injury while Bonino is hurt. Bonino imo has the offensive smarts to play top 6 center for a while, but nobody else on the team, besides the two obvious choices.

That's probably fair. When your center depth is decimated, that definitely impacts your ability to score. The frustrating part with Kessel is that he continues to miss grade A scoring chances that a guy with his talent is expected to finish.

We have been complaining about stone hands Dupuis and grandfather Kunitz missing chances set up by Sid and Geno. When you get a Kessel, you expect an increased production over a Dupuis and Kunitz. Right now he is on pace for 19 ES goals. That's Dupuis level production with a less all around game for $7MM.

Obviously his PP production is part of why he is paid the big bucks too, but that hasn't been overly impressive either.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That's probably fair. When your center depth is decimated, that definitely impacts your ability to score. The frustrating part with Kessel is that he continues to miss grade A scoring chances that a guy with his talent is expected to finish.

That's because he has to actually catch passes on the reg, now. Including all of these chances he's bonering up. He's used to basically carrying the mail on his own. You can't catch passes with a stick that has the consistency of a microwaved Twizzler.

This is part of the reason I've been preaching patience. It's gonna be a huge adjustment. But as simplistic as it sounds... it can only improve so much if you are working with ******** equipment. Regardless of how "comfortable" you are with it. Both Crosby and Malkin put a lot of pace on their passes. Particularly through traffic and on the powerplay. Hell... most good playmakers around the league do the same.

 

[Shady Machine]

That's because he has to actually catch passes on the reg, now. Including all of these chances he's bonering up. He's used to basically carrying the mail on his own. You can't catch passes with a stick that has the consistency of a microwaved Twizzler.

This is part of the reason I've been preaching patience. It's gonna be a huge adjustment. But as simplistic as it sounds... it can only improve so much if you are working with ******** equipment. Regardless of how "comfortable" you are with it. Both Crosby and Malkin put a lot of pace on their passes. Particularly through traffic and on the powerplay. Hell... most good playmakers around the league do the same.

Maybe I need to go back and watch Kessel play in Toronto more. I remember hearing "dude can't 1 time a puck" but I don't recall fans constantly complaining about his ability to catch a pass and shoot. Plus, he worked really well with one of the better playmakers of the past 15 years in Marc Savard. Did Savard just pass marshmallows to Phil? It's really confusing.

I absolutely agree that he needs to be open to changing his stick on the PP, at least.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

It's weird how puck hogging and never getting the puck on net can produce 80 points in a season. Can we at least pretend to be objective with him? He's been pretty disappointing here, but let's at least acknowledge that he has talent and has shown it in the past.

I'm talking about what he's done on this team this year. Being almost completely one-dimensional is fine when you're putting up those points, but he's not. I could care less if that's all he does if he was pushing 40 goals (not an unrealistic number on this team either for those that want to downplay his inefficiencies (not you)).

 

[Ugene Magic]

Kessel has been avoiding the hard areas, and he looked great when the team is healthy and he gets to take advantage of a well oiled machine, but when he is counted on to be one of the hedges getting a lot of attention he picks spots and gets ridden to the outside the rest of the time.

He is after all, in the same front that Sid/Geno are in when they had nobody helping at all.

Hagelin, Geno, Kessel will be just fine. The team will be just fine when healthy, and they'll go on another tear.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Kessel has been avoiding the hard areas, and he looked great when the team is healthy and he gets to take advantage of a well oiled machine, but when he is counted on to be one of the hedges getting a lot of attention he picks spots and gets ridden to the outside the rest of the time.

He is after all, in the same front that Sid/Geno are in when they had nobody helping at all.

Hagelin, Geno, Kessel will be just fine. The team will be just fine when healthy, and they'll go on another tear.

When has he looked great? I mean a game here and there sure, but he looks deadly when he's given a wide berth. Other than that it's an inconsistent smattering of nifty plays that don't show themselves nearly often enough in my opinion. Most games I'm just left wanting more.

 

[SEALBound]

It's weird how puck hogging and never getting the puck on net can produce 80 points in a season. Can we at least pretend to be objective with him? He's been pretty disappointing here, but let's at least acknowledge that he has talent and has shown it in the past.

I'm good with that. He is good and can produce and has every right to have a youtube highlight video showing them.

I'll never argue that he isn't a good player. I will continue to argue that I don't believe he's the "right" player for what we need. Sid is tough to find chemistry with and him with Malkin it is so-so-make-it-work-because-you're-both-all-stars.

I'm glad he's here but it doesn't mean I believe he's the best fit nor are we getting the most out of him, nor are we putting him in a position for him to give us his best.

 

[Ugene Magic]

When has he looked great? I mean a game here and there sure, but he looks deadly when he's given a wide berth. Other than that it's an inconsistent smattering of nifty plays that don't show themselves nearly often enough in my opinion. Most games I'm just left wanting more.

He's done well (producing) when the team is doing well as a whole. Everyone gets better situations when everyone does well. Those games when Hagelin got here -1 game where they were real bad.

When you start having games like that, teams will have no answer for their speed and skill.

Geno/Fehr went down, and they were not the same other then Crosby still going for a bit.

They all reap the rewards throughout.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

He's done well (producing) when the team is doing well as a whole. Everyone gets better situations when everyone does well. Those games when Hagelin got here -1 game where they were real bad.

When you start having games like that, teams will have no answer for their speed and skill.

I do agree with that part. He and Hagelin skate well together and I think Hagelin kinda forces Phil to skate to his potential when he busts up ice. They just need a center to make it all possible. I'm just still not sure I see the prime chances needed for Kessel to reach the numbers that are reasonable to expect here with our centers. I'm not talking 50 goals or anything crazy, but 35 for what we're paying him should be the going rate. 30-32 should be an off year, and this year should be his worst as a Penguin by far.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I do agree with that part. He and Hagelin skate well together and I think Hagelin kinda forces Phil to skate to his potential when he busts up ice. They just need a center to make it all possible. I'm just still not sure I see the prime chances needed for Kessel to reach the numbers that are reasonable to expect here with our centers. I'm not talking 50 goals or anything crazy, but 35 for what we're paying him should be the going rate. 30-32 should be an off year, and this year should be his worst as a Penguin by far.

I get wanting 35 goals, but transition season to a new team and he only did 25 last season, (which is all I really expected this season) but unless everything goes perfect (it hasn't) he isn't going to get to lofty totals.

There's nothing wrong with having held back expectation anymore then higher ones, but there is reality of the situation he was put in. That didn't favor him to be his best.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm talking about what he's done on this team this year. Being almost completely one-dimensional is fine when you're putting up those points, but he's not. I could care less if that's all he does if he was pushing 40 goals (not an unrealistic number on this team either for those that want to downplay his inefficiencies (not you)).

That's fine I just think you exaggerated his deficiencies. He does more than what you said. But yeah, the ultimate point is he needs to get the puck to the net more and bury the chances he is getting.

 

[Gold Diamond]

That's because he has to actually catch passes on the reg, now. Including all of these chances he's bonering up. He's used to basically carrying the mail on his own. You can't catch passes with a stick that has the consistency of a microwaved Twizzler.

This is part of the reason I've been preaching patience. It's gonna be a huge adjustment. But as simplistic as it sounds... it can only improve so much if you are working with ******** equipment. Regardless of how "comfortable" you are with it. Both Crosby and Malkin put a lot of pace on their passes. Particularly through traffic and on the powerplay. Hell... most good playmakers around the league do the same.

This. Kessel has to adjust his game to get away from the style he played while with the Laffs. Paul Martin was awful here for a time, then rededicated himself to playing the right way, and was pretty great after that.

This is what Phil Kessel has to do in the coming seasons.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well we can blame MJ till the cows come home but Sid woke up, Letang woke up, now it's PKs turn.

Sorry, but the second part isn't true. He has put up almost identical points with MJ vs Sully.

Look at Kessel since adding Hagelin vs before that. He's not Sidney Crosby. His waking up won't be lighting the world on fire. But he's got something like 10 in 12.

Again, this is a guy on his 4th coach in a year trying to transition from being the guy his entire offense ran through to a guy trying to be a secondary wing for the first time since his sophomore season with Marc Savard. And he put up over 30 goals and was a PPG playoff player in that situation.

I am still of the opinion that we don't need 40 goals for Kessel to be worth his cost. I just want him to be a threat even when a team throws everything to shut down Sid and Geno. That's something we haven't had since Hossa. I honestly don't expect Kessel to outproduce what Neal did here in the regular season, but I do expect him to produce when it matters unlike Neal. If he can't do that by next playoffs then I will be ready to say Kessel isn't doing what we need him to do. But right now I think it is still way too early to say that.

This is a huge transition for him, and all of the time under MJ was basically wasted time in that regard. He started the real transition to what we want him to be when Sullivan took over. A month or so after that and he started producing at a 60+ point pace again.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm good with that. He is good and can produce and has every right to have a youtube highlight video showing them.

I'll never argue that he isn't a good player. I will continue to argue that I don't believe he's the "right" player for what we need. Sid is tough to find chemistry with and him with Malkin it is so-so-make-it-work-because-you're-both-all-stars.

I'm glad he's here but it doesn't mean I believe he's the best fit nor are we getting the most out of him, nor are we putting him in a position for him to give us his best.

That's totally fair and I probably agree. Saad would have been a better fit (not saying that was a realistic possibility).

 

[Ugene Magic]

Look at Kessel since adding Hagelin vs before that. He's not Sidney Crosby. His waking up won't be lighting the world on fire. But he's got something like 10 in 12.

Again, this is a guy on his 4th coach in a year trying to transition from being the guy his entire offense ran through to a guy trying to be a secondary wing for the first time since his sophomore season with Marc Savard. And he put up over 30 goals and was a PPG playoff player in that situation.

I am still of the opinion that we don't need 40 goals for Kessel to be worth his cost. I just want him to be a threat even when a team throws everything to shut down Sid and Geno. That's something we haven't had since Hossa. I don't expect Kessel to outproduce Neal in the regular season, but I do expect him to produce when it matters unlike Neal. If he can't do that then I will be ready to say Kessel isn't doing what we need him to do. But right now I think it is still way too early to say that.

That is a great point. When it matters.

 

[Shady Machine]

I get wanting 35 goals, but transition season to a new team and he only did 25 last season, (which is all I really expected this season) but unless everything goes perfect (it hasn't) he isn't going to get to lofty totals.

There's nothing wrong with having held back expectation anymore then higher ones, but there is reality of the situation he was put in. That didn't favor him to be his best.

Both you and jaded seem to be fine with 25 goals. I have no idea why either of you are fine with that. 25 goals for a mostly one dimensional winger should not cost $7MM. It just shouldn't. For Phil to live up to that contract, he needs to be potting 35 goals and 65+ points.

 

[Ugene Magic]

That's totally fair and I probably agree. Saad would have been a better fit (not saying that was a realistic possibility).

I don't think you'll get many that disagree with that, I'd love to have gotten, Saad.

 

[Riptide]

Was it put out there which 8 teams Phil listed to which he would accept a trade?

Boston, philly, Rangers, Penguins????

Montreal, Philly, NYR, PIT, Boston, Minny, LA, CHI.

 

[Shady Machine]

Look at Kessel since adding Hagelin vs before that. He's not Sidney Crosby. His waking up won't be lighting the world on fire. But he's got something like 10 in 12.

Again, this is a guy on his 4th coach in a year trying to transition from being the guy his entire offense ran through to a guy trying to be a secondary wing for the first time since his sophomore season with Marc Savard. And he put up over 30 goals and was a PPG playoff player in that situation.

I am still of the opinion that we don't need 40 goals for Kessel to be worth his cost. I just want him to be a threat even when a team throws everything to shut down Sid and Geno. That's something we haven't had since Hossa. I honestly don't expect Kessel to outproduce what Neal did here in the regular season, but I do expect him to produce when it matters unlike Neal. If he can't do that by next playoffs then I will be ready to say Kessel isn't doing what we need him to do. But right now I think it is still way too early to say that.

This is a huge transition for him, and all of the time under MJ was basically wasted time in that regard. He started the real transition to what we want him to be when Sullivan took over. A month or so after that and he started producing at a 60+ point pace again.

I'm fine with patience, but I don't know why a 12 game sample size is more important than than the previous 15 under Sullivan. Yes Hagelin helps, but it's not like Phil didn't have plenty of opportunity with great players earlier this year.

Hey maybe him and Hags will keep tearing it up together. Time will tell. All I'm saying is it's okay to acknowledge he has been disappointing while still being willing to give it time.

As for production, sure if he can get 50 points in the regular season and then become a scoring machine in the playoffs, no one will care. I just doubt he has a switch like that. Realistically, he needs to be a 65+ point winger to be worth that contract.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Both you and jaded seem to be fine with 25 goals. I have no idea why either of you are fine with that. 25 goals for a mostly one dimensional winger should not cost $7MM. It just shouldn't. For Phil to live up to that contract, he needs to be potting 35 goals and 65+ points.

It's not just *being fine with it,* it's about not setting up lofty expectations when circumstance out weighs it happening. Moving forward I do expect him to hit 30+ as soon as next season when things are more define for him and comfort levels are really high.

 

[SEALBound]

Yes, there is an adjustment period. I don't think anyone can deny that. And he's gone through two of them this year - 1. to the Pens, 2. from MJ to MS. So I get that and I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect struggles...

...to a point. Kessel is getting to that point of "Okay...adjustment forgiveness is starting to be over...you need to start producing like you are paid to produce". He needs to figure out what works best with the team and do that. What makes a player a great player is their ability to take their skill sets and make them work within the parameters of their linemates and team.

Kessel is reminding me a bit of Iginla during him time here. We all expected Iginla to be a driving force here and it was more "Hey, you guys got this. I'm gonna grab a comfy spot right over here and let you guys do your thing. Don't mind me I don't want to get in the way". I'm seeing the same out of Kessel. More "Okay, so I'm on Malkin's line, he's the best in the world, I'll just hang out in the background and help him out a bit".

We need Kessel to be a driving force. The one he is capable of being. He needs to be studying video of Geno and start getting a feel for what Geno likes to do so he can complement that at an all star level. He's not here to be a Kunitz, Dupuis, Neal, etc...he's here to be a major offensive component. So far he has not done that.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Fair or not, there are heavy expectations of Kessel. It's because of his past accomplishments, as well as his contract situation. For this team to be paying a guy ~$7M/yr until forever, he had damn well better be scoring more than 25 goals. I'd venture to say 30's the absolute bare minimum we should be expecting from a guy of Kessel's caliber and salary. If that's not realistic or possible because of the "fit," then it was a mistake to trade for him.

I'd give him until the end of the season to figure things out. If he's still plodding along when the season finally ends, I'd be very worried. I don't think he's going to carry a ton of value either (poor performance on a team with two elite centers and a power play that should be dynamite, plus his contract), so flipping him if you don't think it's gonna get any better would suck.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yes, there is an adjustment period. I don't think anyone can deny that. And he's gone through two of them this year - 1. to the Pens, 2. from MJ to MS. So I get that and I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect struggles...

...to a point. Kessel is getting to that point of "Okay...adjustment forgiveness is starting to be over...you need to start producing like you are paid to produce". He needs to figure out what works best with the team and do that. What makes a player a great player is their ability to take their skill sets and make them work within the parameters of their linemates and team.

Kessel is reminding me a bit of Iginla during him time here. We all expected Iginla to be a driving force here and it was more "Hey, you guys got this. I'm gonna grab a comfy spot right over here and let you guys do your thing. Don't mind me I don't want to get in the way". I'm seeing the same out of Kessel. More "Okay, so I'm on Malkin's line, he's the best in the world, I'll just hang out in the background and help him out a bit".

We need Kessel to be a driving force. The one he is capable of being. He needs to be studying video of Geno and start getting a feel for what Geno likes to do so he can complement that at an all star level. He's not here to be a Kunitz, Dupuis, Neal, etc...he's here to be a major offensive component. So far he has not done that.

Solid post. I agree.