Salary Cap: A lump of Cole will be Love and Joy to some team on a Daley basis

[Shady Machine]

It's not just *being fine with it,* it's about not setting up lofty expectations when circumstance out weighs it happening. Moving forward I do expect him to hit 30+ as soon as next season when things are more define for him and comfort levels are really high.

That's fine. I agree there were some lofty expectations put on Phil from the media. NHL.com was talking about 50 goals. That's almost unheard of today and Phil has never even put up 40. Those were too high of expectations. That said, I don't think it was unreasonable to expect him to beat his near career low pace last year.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I'm fine with patience, but I don't know why a 12 game sample size is more important than than the previous 15 under Sullivan. Yes Hagelin helps, but it's not like Phil didn't have plenty of opportunity with great players earlier this year.

Hey maybe him and Hags will keep tearing it up together. Time will tell. All I'm saying is it's okay to acknowledge he has been disappointing while still being willing to give it time.

As for production, sure if he can get 50 points in the regular season and then become a scoring machine in the playoffs, no one will care. I just doubt he has a switch like that. Realistically, he needs to be a 65+ point winger to be worth that contract.

That was like getting another dose of big transition. the 12 is showing how fast the transition went. 15<<12 is a very small timeline to get the most out of anyone. MJ had how many games without a huge spike anywhere?

We all have to bet things will do well when it comes time for it all to matter. They have a TDL and remaining games to put something together.

I think we all agree we really liked what we saw before Geno/Fehr went down.

 

[Shady Machine]

Fair or not, there are heavy expectations of Kessel. It's because of his past accomplishments, as well as his contract situation. For this team to be paying a guy ~$7M/yr until forever, he had damn well better be scoring more than 25 goals. I'd venture to say 30's the absolute bare minimum we should be expecting from a guy of Kessel's caliber and salary. If that's not realistic or possible because of the "fit," then it was a mistake to trade for him.

I'd give him until the end of the season to figure things out. If he's still plodding along when the season finally ends, I'd be very worried. I don't think he's going to carry a ton of value either (poor performance on a team with two elite centers and a power play that should be dynamite, plus his contract), so flipping him if you don't think it's gonna get any better would suck.

Right and the thing is, it's not like he isn't getting in position for good opportunities. I get the adjustment period of moving from a primary puck carrier to more of a complimentary puck carrier and finisher, but the frustrating part is he isn't burying the prime chances he is getting set up for. At least not at the rate you'd expect for an elite goal scorer.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Both you and jaded seem to be fine with 25 goals. I have no idea why either of you are fine with that. 25 goals for a mostly one dimensional winger should not cost $7MM. It just shouldn't. For Phil to live up to that contract, he needs to be potting 35 goals and 65+ points.

Because I think he'll be good enough in the playoffs to make up for it. Let me clarify along with what I said above.

I think Neal was a better compliment to Geno in full throttle. If a team couldn't handle Geno, Neal was a better triggerman for him than kessel ever will be. In the regular season, you play a lot more games where Geno can do that, so Neal was incredibly effective in the regular season. But when you can slow Geno down, Neal was doubly slowed down. In the playoffs, Geno is more likely to be slowed down, and thus Neal wasnt very effective for us in the playoffs. When he did, it was in bursts in those games Geno could dominate.

With kessel, I don't think he is as effective as Neal with full throttle Geno. The lack of one timer is the issue. But honestly, I don't care. In those games, we generally can win with a bit less effective wing. But when Geno slows down I think kessel can keep on scoring. In a playoff series, slowing Geno down will be a huge risk now because it probably means they don't cover kessel as well as they should. And as we've seen, kessel and hagelin are dangerous without Geno being involved at all. That's something we haven't had with sid or Geno since hossa. And I think it's more valuable than 10 or 15 regular season goals.

Basically, I think kessel can score at a 30 goal pace and keep that going into the playoffs. Neal could score at a 40 goal pace and then score at a 10-15 goal pace in the playoffs. Kessel won't need to flip a switch come playoff timr, he just needs to not fall apart.

I also think kessel will improve in the regular season, but that's a different point altogether.

 

[Shady Machine]

Because I think he'll be good enough in the playoffs to make up for it. Let me clarify along with what I said above.

I think Neal was a better compliment to Geno in full throttle. If a team couldn't handle Geno, Neal was a better triggerman for him than kessel ever will be. In the regular season, you play a lot more games where Geno can do that, so Neal was incredibly effective in the regular season. But when you can slow Geno down, Neal was doubly slowed down. In the playoffs, Geno is more likely to be slowed down, and thus Neal wasnt very effective for us in the playoffs. When he did, it was in bursts in those games Geno could dominate.

With kessel, I don't think he is as effective as Neal with full throttle Geno. The lack of one timer is the issue. But honestly, I don't care. In those games, we generally can win with a bit less effective wing. But when Geno slows down I think kessel can keep on scoring. In a playoff series, slowing Geno down will be a huge risk now because it probably means they don't cover kessel as well as they should. And as we've seen, kessel and hagelin are dangerous without Geno being involved at all. That's something we haven't had with sid or Geno since hossa. And I think it's more valuable than 10 or 15 regular season goals.

I also think kessel will improve in the regular season, but that's a different point altogether.

I understand the thought process, but I guess I'll believe it when I see it. I haven't seen Kessel beat too many guys one on one. It's all come down to blowing past someone. The playoffs tend to be less wide open, so it may be a challenge for Hags and Kessel to get free. Hopefully they can exploit some match ups and with quick transition one of them can blow the zone for chances.

 

[Ugene Magic]

That's fine. I agree there were some lofty expectations put on Phil from the media. NHL.com was talking about 50 goals. That's almost unheard of today and Phil has never even put up 40. Those were too high of expectations. That said, I don't think it was unreasonable to expect him to beat his near career low pace last year.

A lot of things have to go right. It just hasn't.

That doesn't mean he isn't being who he is. I look forward to seeing if he can be here then casting him off due to a transitional season. That next season is where we'll see if he's worth holding onto.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Right and the thing is, it's not like he isn't getting in position for good opportunities. I get the adjustment period of moving from a primary puck carrier to more of a complimentary puck carrier and finisher, but the frustrating part is he isn't burying the prime chances he is getting set up for. At least not at the rate you'd expect for an elite goal scorer.

I don't really mind that he's not cashing in. That kinda stuff hits everyone from time to time. My issue is that he still looks out of sorts on the ice. He's not pushing the play like he should be when he's got the puck. He's holding onto the puck too long and getting his shots/passes blocked. He's not using his speed nearly well enough, he's not backing off defenders and making space for himself and his linemates. Then there's the issue of his inability to accept a hard pass, or take a one-timer--two very important aspects of a winger on a line with Sid or Geno.

That's what I'm concerned about. Maybe it eventually goes away, maybe it doesn't. Do we have the luxury of paying ~$7M/yr and waiting to see? I mean, I guess we don't really have a choice now.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I understand the thought process, but I guess I'll believe it when I see it. I haven't seen Kessel beat too many guys one on one. It's all come down to blowing past someone. The playoffs tend to be less wide open, so it may be a challenge for Hags and Kessel to get free. Hopefully they can exploit some match ups and with quick transition one of them can blow the zone for chances.

That's when you have lines doing it rather then a single line doing it will tire teams out. They'll be backing off and really putting the nail in their coffin if they do.

Now if a team comes along and can hold their blue-line it's anyone's game from there.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm fine with patience, but I don't know why a 12 game sample size is more important than than the previous 15 under Sullivan. Yes Hagelin helps, but it's not like Phil didn't have plenty of opportunity with great players earlier this year.

Hey maybe him and Hags will keep tearing it up together. Time will tell. All I'm saying is it's okay to acknowledge he has been disappointing while still being willing to give it time.

As for production, sure if he can get 50 points in the regular season and then become a scoring machine in the playoffs, no one will care. I just doubt he has a switch like that. Realistically, he needs to be a 65+ point winger to be worth that contract.

It doesn't. But its a sign that things are getting better certainly. If he falls back down to where he was, that's obviously a problem. But again, I think people are under-appreciating how big of a transition this is for him. Does that mean he'll for sure figure it out? No. But I think its way too early to say much of anything either way.

The sample I'm really going off of is the rest of his career. He is too good at hockey to not play better than he did for the majority of this season so far.

 

[Shady Machine]

It doesn't. But its a sign that things are getting better certainly. If he falls back down to where he was, that's obviously a problem. But again, I think people are under-appreciating how big of a transition this is for him. Does that mean he'll for sure figure it out? No. But I think its way too early to say much of anything either way.

The sample I'm really going off of is the rest of his career. He is too good at hockey to not play better than he did for the majority of this season so far.

I agree with the last part and that's why I'm preaching patience, but it needs to happen soon. We may not even make the playoffs. I know many here think we will, and I do too, but it's not a guarantee. We need Phil to produce now.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I understand the thought process, but I guess I'll believe it when I see it. I haven't seen Kessel beat too many guys one on one. It's all come down to blowing past someone. The playoffs tend to be less wide open, so it may be a challenge for Hags and Kessel to get free. Hopefully they can exploit some match ups and with quick transition one of them can blow the zone for chances.

The playoffs were less wide open when he was there with Boston and Toronto too though, and he made it work. He was also excellent in the Olympics. I just don't believe that he has gotten worse at hockey. I trust his last month where he's scored 10 in 12 more than the 3/4 of the season before that because 10 in 12 is more in line with the player he has been for about a decade.

I agree with the last part and that's why I'm preaching patience, but it needs to happen soon. We may not even make the playoffs. I know many here think we will, and I do too, but it's not a guarantee. We need Phil to produce now.

It would be nice. But if he doesn't, even in this year's playoffs, I would still expect him to come in and be a great hockey player for us next year. If we want to win this year, you're right. We need him to produce to win. But if we have to wait until next season for that to really happen, so be it. A full mediocre season here won't be enough to convince me he can't work here.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I don't really mind that he's not cashing in. That kinda stuff hits everyone from time to time. My issue is that he still looks out of sorts on the ice. He's not pushing the play like he should be when he's got the puck. He's holding onto the puck too long and getting his shots/passes blocked. He's not using his speed nearly well enough, he's not backing off defenders and making space for himself and his linemates. Then there's the issue of his inability to accept a hard pass, or take a one-timer--two very important aspects of a winger on a line with Sid or Geno.

That's what I'm concerned about. Maybe it eventually goes away, maybe it doesn't. Do we have the luxury of paying ~$7M/yr and waiting to see? I mean, I guess we don't really have a choice now.

Nothing wrong with those concerns, but giving up on it during the roughest point of transition is being a bit trigger happy. At that rate doing that constantly will see the team never compete. They'll always be spinning their wheel getting nowhere.

 

[pistolpete11]

Maybe I had the wrong impression of him, but I’ve been very disappointed with Kessel’s playmaking ability. Everyone was talking before the season about how they now have a guy that can create on his own if a team shadows Crosby or Malkin. I’ve seen very little evidence of him creating his own shot or making plays for his linemates. I’ve barely seen evidence of him trying to create something.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

That's the end of that question.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

 

[Empoleon8771]

Back to the actual deadline talk and not Kessel talk, I'm surprised with how quiet everything has been so far. There was the Phaneuf for scraps deal last week, but that is all that has happened both in rumors and actual trades. I don't know why it's so quiet right now.

 

[Asuna]

That's the end of that question.

That's hilarious.

 

[SEALBound]

Scuderi on waivers. Do we put in a claim?

Maybe trade him for the next Daley?

 

[etm124]

If he goes to the AHL, how does that affect the salary Pittsburgh retained?

 

[SEALBound]

Back to the actual deadline talk and not Kessel talk, I'm surprised with how quiet everything has been so far. There was the Phaneuf for scraps deal last week, but that is all that has happened both in rumors and actual trades. I don't know why it's so quiet right now.

To be honest, there hasn't been a lot of talk this year on trades. Don't know if things are more hush hush or if the sources aren't getting the info but there are a lot of trades seemingly out of the blue.

For us alone, Scuderi-Daley and Perron-Hagelin were discussed for months but the trades were a complete surprise to us.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If he goes to the AHL, how does that affect the salary Pittsburgh retained?

It doesn't get changed since he's on a 1-way deal.

 

[SEALBound]

If he goes to the AHL, how does that affect the salary Pittsburgh retained?

This is a good question. I would like to know that as well.

 

[etm124]

It doesn't get changed since he's on a 1-way deal.

So if no one claims him, does CHI carry him as an 8th (or whatever) D on the practice squad?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So if no one claims him, does CHI carry him as an 8th (or whatever) D on the practice squad?

I have no clue what they'll do with him. If they send him to the AHL or if someone claims him, we'll still be covering 1/3 of his total cap. His 1-way deal means he gets his $3.375 salary regardless of what league he is in.

 

[SEALBound]

I have no clue what they'll do with him. If they send him to the AHL or if someone claims him, we'll still be covering 1/3 of his total cap. His 1-way deal means he gets his $3.375 salary regardless of what league he is in.

Yes but doesn't the cap change a bit if he is waived and sent down? I forget how much we would have saved on his cap had we waived him, so do we see any of those "savings"?