A 32 team league.

[T_Cage]

i dunno about expasiopn. I would rather see some contraction and maybe a "second division" for the teams that dont make the cut plus some hockey-deserving cities (something better than the AHL, but without an NHL-sized budget)

 

[syr14]

i don't see salt lake city being discussed as a possible market. it seems like that would be a decent market with just an nba team there now, could they support an NHL team?

 

[Major4Boarding]

Of course I made up the conversation, to make a point that you obviously got, and how would you know who I may or may not have come within twelve feet of?. Tampa got its franchise ONLY because Phil Esposito didnt quibble over the 50Mil, and why would he have?, it wasnt his dough. Thats Phil all over. Always someone elses turn to pick up the tab.



Well, if your in Florida, then Im quite certainj you've learned how to deal with us annoyingly passive-aggressive Canadians by now. Its quite likely every second neighbour youve got down there is from Trenton, Red Deer, Carelton Place, Timmins, Barrie...... Taking forever to make their minds up in the bread section of the local Safeway, whether to pay by cash or debit, the usual.

Actually, Travelers... Cheques

Actually, I have extended family in Mississauga and the Maritimes. Love my seasonal neighbours. We have tons to talk about

Spot on about Pappa Phil btw, Killion.

I think I need to slightly clarify my earlier post. In my opinions about the available talent vs. diluted talent, I'm not advocating because I feel there's an abundance that it means that justifies expansion. Sorry in advance if some that was the case.

 

[LadyStanley]

i don't see salt lake city being discussed as a possible market. it seems like that would be a decent market with just an nba team there now, could they support an NHL team?

Need arena and owner first. (NBA arena has weird set up for hockey -- that's too small for NHL)

 

[obsenssive*]

So you're saying that Canadian owners are incompetent and incapable of reasoning for themselves? It was evil Americans that lied to them about the expansion, namely to dilute the Canadian content because Americans hate Canadians?

yes. anybody who approves American expansion in TamPa Bay, Anaheim, Atlanta (twice), Sunrise, and Glendale is obviously stupid, or being subverted or coerced some how. No person with any intelligence would even seriously consider it.

And I never said Americans hate Canadians. Americans disregard Canadians. There's a big difference. I can explain to you in detail with facts and evidence about how American media, popular culture, general education, politics, and academia are invariably largely ignorant of the world and heavily self-centered. As a result the NHL has been negatively effected by, and continues to be threatened by American bias.

 

[Shawa666]

Seattle and Portland, Oregon have been ad inifniteum discussed numerous times HERE----neither has a suitable arena nor economic support to build said arena.... it's one of the reasons why Sacramento is having issues w/ ARCO/PBP BEING OUTDATED....

It's what cost Seattle its pro basketball franchise now in OKC....

as for Austin, etc.... how do you propose franchises not own or operate their affiliates such as Texas is to Dallas, Milwaukee to Nashville.....

Houston is majority owned is it not by Minnesota.........

Winnipeg has the Moose now but what happens if TNSE bites but doesn't acquire a franchise in which it will likely cost them their current franchise.....

Quebec: see Sacramento, Portland, Seattle, no arena, and even if an arena is built, is there enough of a fanbase that can support two franchises in the same city when the affiliate isn't Montreal but the fanbase supports a junior franchise as Quebec does w/ its Remparts and as Atlantic Canada has shown since the mid 90s beginning w/ Halifax.... same goes for Hartford, despite Baldwin's gimmickry w/ the Rangers AHL rebranding, you likely would've seen a Seattle (and did) scenario there although it took a year to build RBC

Southern Ontario hits both MLSE, Ottawa and Buffalo depending on how you slice that.

TOO MUCH VOLATITY has cost us, leagues, and even in some cases, teams, either running into trouble that the leagues have to step in to keep them afloat or as Fresno & Augusta showed a few years ago, were gone mid-season putting doubt into the credibility of the ECHL

Re: Quebec, the arena will be finished in 2015. It's been sealed an signed last month

 

[Mike in MN]

I've been a long time supporter of a 32 team NHL by 2015 (and MLB too...). I even like MoreOrr's unbalanced divisions as a temporary setup - it helps my thoughts on a 34 team league by 2024, and finally a 36 team league by 2030.

Expansion, talent wise is doable as long as it's done slooooowly. Population growth needs a chance to keep up. Remember, fifty years ago people thought baseball was nearly maxed out at 16 teams. By the eighties, 24 team leagues seemed to be the max. Populations grow, small cities grow into new markets. Sixty years ago, who could have imagined Phoenix and Miami growing into what they are today?

That's not to say league size is infinitely expandable. The NFL and NBA are likely capped at 32 teams. The NHL could go bigger only because of its Canadian markets.

So here's my hair-brained ideas: Add Winnipeg and Quebec soon, then eventually one more in Canada and three more in the States...

 

[Seanconn*]

yes. anybody who approves American expansion in TamPa Bay, Anaheim, Atlanta (twice), Sunrise, and Glendale is obviously stupid, or being subverted or coerced some how. No person with any intelligence would even seriously consider it.

And I never said Americans hate Canadians. Americans disregard Canadians. There's a big difference. I can explain to you in detail with facts and evidence about how American media, popular culture, general education, politics, and academia are invariably largely ignorant of the world and heavily self-centered. As a result the NHL has been negatively effected by, and continues to be threatened by American bias.

and 2 of those teams have won the cup.

 

[Fugu]

yes. anybody who approves American expansion in TamPa Bay, Anaheim, Atlanta (twice), Sunrise, and Glendale is obviously stupid, or being subverted or coerced some how. No person with any intelligence would even seriously consider it.

And I never said Americans hate Canadians. Americans disregard Canadians. There's a big difference. I can explain to you in detail with facts and evidence about how American media, popular culture, general education, politics, and academia are invariably largely ignorant of the world and heavily self-centered. As a result the NHL has been negatively effected by, and continues to be threatened by American bias.

I'd leave out the academia. Last time I checked, they were still putting out more research/publications than anyone else.

Don't know what to tell you about the rest of it. Obviously you seem to believe that bias is a one-way street.

 

[leoleo3535]

and 2 of those teams have won the cup.

Phoenix could win the cup as well.
It does not mean it is a good hockey market.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I've been a long time supporter of a 32 team NHL by 2015 (and MLB too...). I even like MoreOrr's unbalanced divisions as a temporary setup - it helps my thoughts on a 34 team league by 2024, and finally a 36 team league by 2030.

Expansion, talent wise is doable as long as it's done slooooowly. Population growth needs a chance to keep up. Remember, fifty years ago people thought baseball was nearly maxed out at 16 teams. By the eighties, 24 team leagues seemed to be the max. Populations grow, small cities grow into new markets. Sixty years ago, who could have imagined Phoenix and Miami growing into what they are today?

That's not to say league size is infinitely expandable. The NFL and NBA are likely capped at 32 teams. The NHL could go bigger only because of its Canadian markets.

So here's my hair-brained ideas: Add Winnipeg and Quebec soon, then eventually one more in Canada and three more in the States...

I just can't see the league being able to handle 36 teams. One, you have very few leverage when you have only a handful of cities afterwards that you can use when you need something from the region. Two, I think the league can handle adding 40-46 more players with two teams but not almost 150 players. It's not out of the realm of possibility over the course of 50 years but within the next 10 to 20, no way. Three, the biggest issue that will plague a large expansion going forward is the willingness for public support to fund arenas necessary to have a pro sports team. Canada has a well-established disinterest in funding arenas with taxpayer money. In America, that is becoming more and more similar due to the recession. Until that attitude changes and America re-emerges economically into some growth, adding teams past a couple teams is not a smart idea.

Winnipeg and Quebec City should be 1 and 2 in line for the next available team, be it expansion or relocation. But in this economy and the player pool available to them, I wouldn't go past that.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Phoenix could win the cup as well.
It does not mean it is a good hockey market.

If Phoenix won the Cup and had solid ownership to keep the team there, they would succeed as a market. You can't expect fans to show up after six years of suck that is mixed in with a lockout and a bankruptcy/fear of relocation hovering over the franchise.

 

[Fugu]

Let me ask a question.


What is so "magical" about the number 32?



Or should we change the NHL's name to the National Copycat League?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Let me ask a question.


What is so "magical" about the number 32?



Or should we change the NHL's name to the National Copycat League?

I don't think there's anything "magical" about 32. But when you expand, you expand in even numbers to maintain balance. If they want to keep it at 30, that would be great too. I just think that if the league wants to appease the Canadian crowd, they will eventually have to expand or lose their American footprint to some degree. I don't think there will be two teams available to relocate to Canada so expansion seems logical or just keep Canadians mad...their choice obviously. lol

 

[leoleo3535]

If Phoenix won the Cup and had solid ownership to keep the team there, they would succeed as a market. You can't expect fans to show up after six years of suck that is mixed in with a lockout and a bankruptcy/fear of relocation hovering over the franchise.

You don't dump a hockey franchise into a non hockey market and hope that in a few years the team will win the Stanley Cup thus fans will jump on board.

As we know it can take 10, 20, 30 ,40 years for a cup.
6 years is nothing and either is the 15 or so they have been in the desert.

In a hockey market the fans will be there regardless of a cup.

 

[MoreOrr]

Let me ask a question.


What is so "magical" about the number 32?



Or should we change the NHL's name to the National Copycat League?

Absolutely nothing, Fugu, absolutely nothing. But it is "more".

Oh, and for those who want 4 Divisions of 8 teams each, it divides nicely.

 

[Killion]

But it is "more".

Ive always believed "less is more" Orr.
Id like less teams & less regular season games.

 

[KevFu]

I'm pro-32 teams. Because

(a) I want more teams in Canada - WIN / QUE.
(b) I also want a team in Houston
(c) The salary cap dilutes talent more than job opportunities. Veterans get priced out in cap era, this would provide them with more mid-range jobs. Maybe fewer of the guys who went KHL would bolt if there was more paying jobs available.
(d) I think it could solve some travel/schedule inequities.
(e) I think it would make hockey fan in general happy if we have teams in HOU, QUE and WIN.

my ideal would be four division of eight rather than eight divisions of four, but I'd understand if they used eight divisions for scheduling.

NYI, NYR, PHI, NJ | BOS, OTT, MON, QUE
BUF, TOR, PIT, DET | WASH, TB, FLA, CAR
CHI, MIN, STL, CBJ | ATL, DAL, HOU, NASH
LA, ANA, SJ, COL | VAN, EDM, CAL, WIN

 

[danishh]

my issue with 4x8 rather than 8x4 is that owners like winning things. 8 division championship banners a year is better for the league than 4. The stanley cup is really really hard to win. The conference championship is really hard to win. Teams need to be winning SOMETHING in order to keep the fanbase engaged. 8 division championships likely means at least one per decade per team, which can help soften the blow of not winning the cup for decades at a time.



@ladystanley, who suggested that moving toronto out of the NE would be unimaginable, i point to the fact that Toronto has only been with Ottawa/Montreal/Buffalo/Boston since 1998, and that toronto hasnt been in the same division as any of them since 1980 when they joined the norris.

Montreal and Ottawa dont need Toronto in the same division to have a rivalry with them. Toronto doesnt need them for anything either. Travelling leafs fans will be replaced with locals who are suddenly able to purchase tickets to those leafs games in Ottawa and Buffalo. They will still have rivalries due to geography and, if they stay within the same conference, playoff battles would likely increase in probablility.

 

[MoreOrr]

Ive always believed "less is more" Orr.
Id like less teams & less regular season games.

So I should be "LessOrr".

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'll take two new teams.
One in Winnipeg.
One in Quebec
Move the Yotes to Seattle.
Done Detroit to the East.

Go with 4 eight-team conferences
Return to a Divisional Playoff System.
Watch REAL rivalries return.

Pay me millions for my brilliance.

 

[Seanconn*]

according to Wikipedia the Rose Garden in Portland seats 18,000 for ice hockey.


how is that not NHL ready? ? ?

 

[Killion]

yes. anybody who approves American expansion in TamPa Bay, Anaheim, Atlanta (twice), Sunrise, and Glendale is obviously stupid, or being subverted or coerced some how. No person with any intelligence would even seriously consider it.

And I never said Americans hate Canadians. Americans disregard Canadians. There's a big difference. I can explain to you in detail with facts and evidence about how American media, popular culture, general education, politics, and academia are invariably largely ignorant of the world and heavily self-centered. As a result the NHL has been negatively effected by, and continues to be threatened by American bias.

Allllrighty then Deslrae. Man Alive do you ever know how to step in it. First. Expansion. Atlanta, Tampa, Miami, Phoenix & Anaheim. Of that 5, the only one that I have a problem with is Miami, Tampa hopefully turning the corner with Vinik after years of insanity at the ownership level. As for the Panthers, the rivalry with Tampa that it was supposed to predicate has never happened for 2 reasons;

1) The Panthers Suck & the operations a joke; their arena is in the middle of nowhere, bordering on everglades, smack dab in the middle of Alligator Ally. Indeed, you may be able to drive right up to its front doors in an airboat if so inclined.

2) Really, not one person in Tampa could give two figgs about Sunrise, much less the Panthers, fewer still apparently in Sunrise/Miami Dade proper. A local anomaly & inside joke that apparently neither Phil Esposito, nor anyone else with the Bolts organization bothered to mention to anyone at league level let alone to the new owners in Sunrise. But hey, thanks for the cheque.

As for Anaheim? Disney Corporation & a natural rivalry with LA & San Jose.
Phoenix?. 15 years of being used as the emotional hook in a long con by 3 seperate owners.
Atlanta?. Litigious dysfunctional ownership, dyslexic Don Waddel... All you need to know.

Now, regards the rest of your post?. Are you writing (or written already) a thesis on the subject?. MA or PHD?. Just the kind of thing guaranteed to land you a Tenured position here in Canada at any number of our fine & truly enlightened post secondary institutions. Have you considered giving an Oral Presentation to the students & faculty at maybe the University of Michigan or Ohio State?. Im sure they'd be very interested to learn from you that they all live insular, self absorbed lives. How this attitude allowed 30 billionaires to ride rough shod through Quebec, Hamilton, Saskatoonio & Winnipeg, ripping the game of hockey away from the arms & bosom of Mother Canada to be carted off to places where ice should only be allowed to exist in a glass.

 

[Killion]

So I should be "LessOrr".

That works 4me. He was simplicity itself out there. Even his wind-up on the slapshot was barely knee high. Quick, simple, accurate. Nothing (like too many teams & reg. season games, the trapezoid, rink board advertising etc etc etc etc) excessive. Straight to the point.

 

[kdb209]

according to Wikipedia the Rose Garden in Portland seats 18,000 for ice hockey.


how is that not NHL ready? ? ?

Because it's owned by a guy who hasn't been interested in sharing it with his NBA toy.

If Paul Allen had wanted a team, he almost certainly would have gotten one in the early or late 90s expansions. On the whole Allen has showed an antipathy for the NHL - although rumor has it he was kicking the tires in Phoenix at the time Burke sold the franchise to Ellman.