Player Discussion #92 Jonathan Drouin

[Belial]

Once again replying to one of my posts out of context , the onus was to prove that we tend to exaggerate the potential of our prospects. It's a common theme , that was what I was replying to , I never said anything about the prospects listed being comparable to Drouin. Whether it's a bust who we thought had top 6 potential or a guy we thought could be a star but ended up being a journeyman NHLer , the logic applies to all prospects.

Do you disagree with my premise that the Habs board (among I'm sure many boards on HF) , tend to exaggerate with the potential of our prospects? Did you not read the Poehling thread? Next Kesler , number 1 C material , could make the NHL as soon as next year...

Your perception of Drouin is just plain wrong.

Prospect? What? Come on...

You can be sceptical and that's alright but you're severely underestimating this kid and what he can do on the ice.

And I don't understand why are you doing this, to be honest...

 

[CauZuki]

I'll retort with the follow up question again.

aren't you one of the posters who despite liking the trade, laments the fact we lost a "blue chip prospect" in Sergachev?

If so, how do you reconcile that, with what you just wrote above?

If we overrate potential, how can you lament the fact we traded a player with potential, for an established "youngster"?

Once again, if you aren't one of the posters who argued against the trade because of the inclusion of Sergachev, I apologize in advance.

I was and still am on the "I like this trade" side , since we got a more proven offensive player who is still very young. I just wasn't happy with giving up Sergachev and a pick when we held all the leverage , perhaps a discussion for another time.

Your perception of Drouin is just plain wrong.

Prospect? What? Come on...

You can be sceptical and that's alright but you're severely underestimating this kid and what he can do on the ice.

And I don't understand why are you doing this, to be honest...

How am I understimating him by tempering my expectations?

I see people saying he has top 5 scoring potential , he is going to takeover the league , that he has hands similar to 66 , more spectacular than Malkin , 70+ points is the bare minimum...

My reaction have always ended with , I like him as a player , I think he will very good part of our core and Bergevin did a good job in acquiring him.(although I wasn't super happy with us adding a pick , but that's not really material to this discussion)

I welcome you to quote me and bring up these instances where I was overly critical of Drouin?

 

[417]

I was and still am on the "I like this trade" side , since we got a more proven offensive player who is still very young. I just wasn't happy with giving up Sergachev and a pick when we held all the leverage , perhaps a discussion for another time.

Seems like the perfect time to have this discussion, don't you think?

Here you are, cautioning Habs fans over overrating prospects and extending that thought to Drouin, who isn't actually a prospect.

Yet on the other hand, you're not happy with giving up a prospect, for an actual proven player.

Do you not see the contradiction there?

There's something very odd about you standing on one leg telling people to temper their expectations on prospects...yet standing on the other lamenting the fact we lost a prospect, for a proven player.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If he plays as a top six centre the whole season, never taken off the position during a slump, never benched for risky plays, gets a chance to win defensive zone face-offs, I don't really care what his point totals are (unless they are really low).

All I wanted with Chuck's development was a chance to play centre without worrying about making a mistake. If Drouin gets that shot, I'll be very happy. He doesn't have to put up 60-70 points. If he can stick at centre and not look embarrassing in the role in the playoffs, it'll be a success to me.

Good points you bring up for sure. Galchenyuk was definitely given a short stick multiple times. I think both MT and CJ had issues with his compete level vs making mistakes. Sometimes Galchenyuk just don't move his feet and relies on his stick handling and that got him in trouble. He needs to move his feet in tight pressure situations to create separation IMO. Something Drouin does very well and I'm hoping Galchenyuk learns a few things.

 

[CauZuki]

Seems like the perfect time to have this discussion, don't you think?

Here you are, cautioning Habs fans over overrating prospects and extending that thought to Drouin, who isn't actually a prospect.

Yet on the other hand, you're not happy with giving up a prospect, for an actual proven player.

Do you not see the contradiction there?

My issue was more with adding the pick than losing Sergachev , I think potential for potential it's a wash.

I don't think we should have to add a pick because :

- Defensive blue chip prospects are traditionally worth more than their equivalent forwards. (See: Hall/Johansen)
- Drouin had known issues with reporting and being disgruntled (which does impact value).
- Yzerman was very close to losing a good roster player to Vegas and needed to trade Drouin for a good asset that was draft exempt.
- Drouin was unsigned RFA at the time of the trade.
- Yzerman didn't have the cap space to re-sign Drouin without making a cap dump type trade.
- The rumoured ask for Drouin for over a year now has been a mobile LD with huge potential , nobody was biting.

With all these factors going for him it shouldn't have cost our best prospect and a pick. Would have been happier with Sergachev for Drouin straight up since all the points mentioned negate any difference of value between the two. My bigger issue with Bergevin is how he handled every other move from that point forward.

 

[417]

My issue was more with adding the pick than losing Sergachev , I think potential for potential it's a wash.

I don't think we should have to add a pick because :

- Defensive blue chip prospects are traditionally worth more than their equivalent forwards. (See: Hall/Johansen)
- Drouin had known issues with reporting and being disgruntled (which does impact value).
- Yzerman was very close to losing a good roster player to Vegas and needed to trade Drouin for a good asset that was draft exempt.
- Drouin was unsigned RFA at the time of the trade.
- Yzerman didn't have the cap space to re-sign Drouin without making a cap dump type trade.
- The rumoured ask for Drouin for over a year now has been a mobile LD with huge potential , nobody was biting.

With all these factors going for him it shouldn't have cost our best prospect and a pick. Would have been happier with Sergachev for Drouin straight up since all the points mentioned negate any difference of value between the two. My bigger issue with Bergevin is how he handled every other move from that point forward.

It's a conditional draft pick...if Sergachev makes the Bolts, and is as good as you seem to think he is, then it's a 1 for 1 swap.

The reason why a pick was added, and you should actually be THRILLED Bergevin managed to make it a conditional one, is because proven NHL talent that is 21-22yrs old > prospects.

Now i'll let you off the hook because it's clear, you have no interest in addressing your contradiction.

I'll take that as a silent admission that you don't like certain elements of the trade, because of the GM who did it thus by extension, Drouin has to suffer for it.

Odd way to be a fan...but it's not my place to tell you what to do

 

[CauZuki]

It's a conditional draft pick...if Sergachev makes the Bolts, and is as good as you seem to think he is, then it's a 1 for 1 swap.

The reason why a pick was added, and you should actually be THRILLED Bergevin managed to make it a conditional one, is because proven NHL talent that is 21-22yrs old > prospects.

Now i'll let you off the hook because it's clear, you have no interest in addressing your contradiction.

I'll take that as a silent admission that you don't like certain elements of the trade, because of the GM who did it thus by extension, Drouin has to suffer for it.

Odd way to be a fan...but it's not my place to tell you what to do

I did not suggest or imply this at all , as I mentioned was quite happy with the trade , as it was a clear sign of going in the right direction.

Defenceman traditionally take longer to develop and by the time Sergachev is ready to make a real impact I don't believe our veteran core will still be at it's peak. Acquiring Weber shortens our window , trading Sergachev adds a young player ready to contribute for a D prospect with an equal amount of potential. It's the Radulov move that made me irate with Bergevin , as it clearly showed that our objective isn't fielding the best team possible. However I don't want to open that can of worms as I've discussed it endlessly.

In short :

- Acquires Weber = Win now
- Trade Sergachev = Win now (with less risk than the Weber trade since Drouin is still very young)
- Signs Price to an expensive deal = Win now (or do we think our chances will get better with Price entering his 30s while carrying a top 3 NHL goalie cap hit)
- Let a good UFA walkaway = ???

Profit?

 

[417]

I did not suggest or imply this at all , as I mentioned was quite happy with the trade , as it was a clear sign of going in the right direction.

Defenceman traditionally take longer to develop and by the time Sergachev is ready to make a real impact I don't believe our veteran core will still be at it's peak. Acquiring Weber shortens our window , trading Sergachev adds a young player ready to contribute for a D prospect with an equal amount of potential. It's the Radulov move that made me irate with Bergevin , as it clearly showed that our objective isn't fielding the best team possible. However I don't want to open that can of worms as I've discussed it endlessly.

In short :

- Acquires Weber = Win now
- Trade Sergachev = Win now (with less risk than the Weber trade since Drouin is still very young)
- Signs Price to an expensive deal = Win now (or do we think our chances will get better with Price entering his 30s while carrying a top 3 NHL goalie cap hit)
- Let a good UFA walkaway = ???

Profit?

You've shifted the conversation away from it's intended purpose...and we both know why.

Now as for windows, I don't believe in a handful of players determining an entire teams window.

So best not to delve into that topic...but if you want to revisit what you've tried to put aside, I'd be more than willing to engage again.

 

[Adriatic]

In short :

- Acquires Weber = Win now
- Trade Sergachev = Win now (with less risk than the Weber trade since Drouin is still very young)
- Signs Price to an expensive deal = Win now (or do we think our chances will get better with Price entering his 30s while carrying a top 3 NHL goalie cap hit)
- Let a good UFA walkaway = ???

Profit?

Profit?? That's your issue. This team has been spending to the cap since the cap was put in place. You think letting Radulov walk was done because they wanted some profit. My gawd people!!!

 

[CauZuki]

You've shifted the conversation away from it's intended purpose...and we both know why.

Now as for windows, I don't believe in a handful of players determining an entire teams window.

So best not to delve into that topic...but if you want to revisit what you've tried to put aside, I'd be more than willing to engage again.

All I have to say is do you think without prime Weber/Price our team is better or equivalent to Edmonton's core before McDavid and acquiring D help (Larsson and company).

Meaning do you prefer a core with (judged at the time of core existing) :

2017

- Pacioretty
- Drouin
- Galchenyuk
- Gallagher
- Lekhonen
- Danault
- Shaw

vs

2015/16

- RNH
- Hall
- Eberle
- Yakupov
- Klefbom
- Draisatl
- Nurse


Remind me where that talented core finished in 2015-2016 even with rookie McDavid?

The point being you can't negate the impact of solid D/goaltending and Edmonton is the poster child for it doesn't matter who you have on offense , if you don't invest in D/G you'll be stuck at the bottom for years. I'm scared of Habs potential without replacing a prime Price/Weber , we literally have nothing similar in the pipeline with bad odds of drafting similar quality players.

If you don't think we are in our window now that those key pieces are in their 30's I don't know what to say...

Injuries take their toll as players age , natural regression (we are after-all talking about athletes) and the fact that the stats show that players don't perform as well as they enter their 30's.
Doesn't mean our players will become bums but for the salary we are committing to these players and having them signed until their late 30's at that price , you better bet we are living or dying with these two.

 

[417]

All I have to say is do you think without prime Weber/Price/Pacioretty our team is better or equivalent to Edmonton's core before McDavid and acquiring D help (Larsson and company).

Meaning do you prefer a core with (judged at the time of core existing) :

2017

-Drouin
-Galchenyuk
-Gallagher
-Lekhonen
-Danault
-Shaw

vs

2015/16

- RNH
- Hall
- Eberle
- Yakupov
- Klefbom
- Draisatl


Remind me where that talented core finished in 2015-2016 even with rookie McDavid?

The point being you can't negate the impact of solid D/goaltending and Edmonton is the poster child for it doesn't matter who you have on offense , if you don't invest in D/G you'll be stuck at the bottom for years. I'm scared of Habs potential without replacing a prime Price/Weber , we literally have nothing similar in the pipeline with bad odds of drafting similar quality players.

If you don't think we are in our window now that those key pieces are in their 30's I don't know what to say...

I seriously have no clue how we've gotten to discussing this.

 

[Captain Mountain]

All I have to say is do you think without prime Weber/Price our team is better or equivalent to Edmonton's core before McDavid and acquiring D help (Larsson and company).

Meaning do you prefer a core with (judged at the time of core existing) :

2017

-Pacioretty
-Drouin
-Galchenyuk
-Gallagher
-Lekhonen
-Danault
-Shaw

vs

2015/16

- RNH
- Hall
- Eberle
- Yakupov
- Klefbom
- Draisatl


Remind me where that talented core finished in 2015-2016 even with rookie McDavid?

The point being you can't negate the impact of solid D/goaltending and Edmonton is the poster child for it doesn't matter who you have on offense , if you don't invest in D/G you'll be stuck at the bottom for years. I'm scared of Habs potential without replacing a prime Price/Weber , we literally have nothing similar in the pipeline with bad odds of drafting similar quality players.

If you don't think we are in our window now that those key pieces are in their 30's I don't know what to say...

Isn't Edmonton (who honestly haven't been all that well managed by Chia) the only team of those two with a "core" defenceman? And Talbot is a pretty good goalie in his own right. Edmonton has problems (mostly tied to bad contracts and bad trades), but McDavid is good enough to cover a lot of stuff up.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Look at who he was playing with at the end of last year.

https://leftwinglock.com/line-combi...m=tampa-bay-lightning&strength=EV&gametype=GD

Guys like Killorn, Gourde and point were playing above him. Even with guys hurt he was stuck on the third line.

https://leftwinglock.com/line-combi...m=tampa-bay-lightning&strength=EV&gametype=10

It was a well known fact that cooper disliked him.

How is he supposed to produce more when he played with guys who were black hole offensively most of the time.

And i would look at his PP stats more then his EV strength stats. When he plays with talented players he produces, when he doesnt its a bit hairy. Playing with a guy like pacioretty or galchenyuk will allow him to produce more at 5 on 5

Where's the TOI? And Drouin wasn't productive at even strength, so its not entirely unjustified. As for PP vs. EV, EV generally has less variance year over year. And its a completely different game state. Guys like Gagner are amazing on the PP and putrid at EV. The skills are not perfectly transferable.

 

[CauZuki]

I seriously have no clue how we've gotten to discussing this.

I'm saying Weber and Price are two big pieces for which you are not giving enough credit. As they age , they will still carry 25% of our cap while not adding as much value. This is the definition of a window an amount of time that is ripe for winning. Do you think Habs are more likely to win as these two age while carrying the same cap hit? Do you think we have anybody in the pipeline that comes close to their impact on the ice?
Do you not see the amount of teams that hold on to stars well past their prime until they have to face themselves in the mirror and succumb to rebuilding?
Did you not see how our team performed when Price was out? (maybe it's not an accurate representation but it's still very scary , especially when teams like Pittsburgh seem to have no issues handling Crosby or Malkin's injuries).

I'd like to at least attempt to address these concerns , before you throw out the notion of a window.

 

[VinceHabs]

Profit?? That's your issue. This team has been spending to the cap since the cap was put in place. You think letting Radulov walk was done because they wanted some profit. My gawd people!!!

Underpants gnome reference?

 

[417]

I'm saying Weber and Price are two big pieces for which you are not giving enough credit. As they age , they will still carry 25% of our cap while not adding as much value. This is the definition of a window an amount of time that is ripe for winning. Do you think Habs are more likely to win as these two age while carrying the same cap hit? Do you think we have anybody in the pipeline that comes close to their impact on the ice?
Do you not see the amount of teams that hold on to stars well past their prime until they have to face themselves in the mirror and succumb to rebuilding?
Did you not see how our team performed when Price was out? (maybe it's not an accurate representation but it's still very scary , especially when teams like Pittsburgh seem to have no issues handling Crosby or Malkin's injuries).

I'd like to at least attempt to address these concerns , before you throw out the notion of a window.

You offset that by having key contributors on ELC's

As I've often mentioned, a teams "window" isn't tied to individual players...

Rather tied to the performance of an entire management staff to make astute trades/signings AND probably most importantly, performing at the draft table, regardless of where you pick.

 

[CauZuki]

You offset that by having key contributors on ELC's

As I've often mentioned, a teams "window" isn't tied to individual players...

Rather tied to the performance of an entire management staff to make astute trades/signings AND probably most importantly, performing at the draft table, regardless of where you pick.

Nice dodge , not all players are created equal or cut from the same cloth as Weber/Price.

I can't believe you think this team can contend with the current roster + a mid 30's Price/Weber just by leveraging ELC...You are basically praying we draft some stud with late 1st round picks for this scenario to be even remotely possible.

 

[417]

Nice dodge , not all players are created equal or cut from the same cloth as Weber/Price.

I can't believe you think this team can contend with the current roster + a mid 30's Price/Weber just by leveraging ELC...You are basically praying we draft some stud with late 1st round picks for this scenario to be even remotely possible.

Wow after the epic dodging job you just went through, you have the audacity to say I'm dodging you when all I did was actually address the post you made??

I'm STILL waiting for you to address the contradiction you made....

As for the rest of your post...that's not what I'm arguing. I didn't say draft a stud late, not at all...

Example - Arturri Lehkonen was drafted in the 2nd round, I think he's already or will shortly be considered a core player.

He's on ELC...

What I said, is you offset having Price/Weber taking a large chunk of your cap BY HAVING KEY CONTRIBUTORS ON ELC.

Nowhere did I state, as you've stated I did, that "we have to pray to draft studs in late in the 1st round".

Get all your strawmen out of the way now...when you're done, let's see if we can continue this conversation

 

[417]

After reading the last few pages, I don't think you should be calling out anyone for dodging the issue(s)...

Imagine my shock after reading that

 

[CauZuki]

After reading the last few pages, I don't think you should be calling out anyone for dodging the issue(s)...

Yeah how dare I state that I think some should temper their expectations for Drouin. I'm such a dodger.

You guys are right , potential top 5 in points , dekes likes Lemieux/Malkin and top 3 exciting player in the league.

Should be fun seeing him get at least 80 points , while I'm sure not even trying that hard.

Wow after the epic dodging job you just went through, you have the audacity to say I'm dodging you when all I did was actually address the post you made??

I'm STILL waiting for you to address the contradiction you made....

As for the rest of your post...that's not what I'm arguing. I didn't say draft a stud late, not at all...

Example - Arturri Lehkonen was drafted in the 2nd round, I think he's already or will shortly be considered a core player.

He's on ELC...

What I said, is you offset having Price/Weber taking a large chunk of your cap BY HAVING KEY CONTRIBUTORS ON ELC.

Nowhere did I state, as you've stated I did, that "we have to pray to draft studs in late in the 1st round".

Get all your strawmen out of the way now...when you're done, let's see if we can continue this conversation

There absolutely was no dodge on my part , you know when you label someone even if it's untrue , 50% of people will believe you?

I told you that my issue was with value , adding a pick to Sergachev. My opinion is that we could have worked it as 1 for 1 deal without giving up anything else , even if it was a conditional pick. ( I gave multiple reasons for this justification , you disagree and that's fine , doesn't make me a dodger)
I never said it negated the traded or that I was even unhappy with the trade. I'd welcome that you go through the initial Drouin acquisition thread my opinion was quite positive.

The only reason I got heavily involved in this thread in the first place was when I was seeing the ridiculous expectations for Drouin and many denying the stats while saying things like "you'll see" and the famous subjective eye test.

So what exactly am I dodging , please remind me?

 

[DangerDave]

I did not suggest or imply this at all , as I mentioned was quite happy with the trade , as it was a clear sign of going in the right direction.

Defenceman traditionally take longer to develop and by the time Sergachev is ready to make a real impact I don't believe our veteran core will still be at it's peak. Acquiring Weber shortens our window , trading Sergachev adds a young player ready to contribute for a D prospect with an equal amount of potential. It's the Radulov move that made me irate with Bergevin , as it clearly showed that our objective isn't fielding the best team possible. However I don't want to open that can of worms as I've discussed it endlessly.

In short :

- Acquires Weber = Win now
- Trade Sergachev = Win now (with less risk than the Weber trade since Drouin is still very young)
- Signs Price to an expensive deal = Win now (or do we think our chances will get better with Price entering his 30s while carrying a top 3 NHL goalie cap hit)
- Let a good UFA walkaway = ???

Profit?

I admit that losing Radulov is going to hurt quite a bit. This would have been a fantastic move if we were able to keep him but you're right that we aren't any better today than we were last year. I'm really hoping MB has a backup plan for all this because it seems we're just spinning tires right now. He's gonna have to get creative or hope that we have surprises at camp.

 

[crosbyshow]

Unbelievable hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMlKrW-Y19U

 

[417]

Yeah how dare I state that I think some should temper their expectations for Drouin. I'm such a dodger.

You guys are right , potential top 5 in points , dekes likes Lemieux/Malkin and top 3 exciting player in the league.

Should be fun seeing him get at least 80 points , while I'm sure not even trying that hard.



There absolutely was no dodge on my part , you know when you label someone even if it's untrue , 50% of people will believe you?

I told you that my issue was with value , adding a pick to Sergachev. My opinion is that we could have worked it as 1 for 1 deal without giving up anything else , even if it was a conditional pick. ( I gave multiple reasons for this justification , you disagree and that's fine , doesn't make me a dodger)
I never said it negated the traded or that I was even unhappy with the trade. I'd welcome that you go through the initial Drouin acquisition thread my opinion was quite positive.

The only reason I got heavily involved in this thread in the first place was when I was seeing the ridiculous expectations for Drouin and many denying the stats while saying things like "you'll see" and the famous subjective eye test.

So what exactly am I dodging , please remind me?

See post #1026, #1028 & #1031

 

[crosbyshow]

Explosion, second effort, hands, vision = Exciting player !!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6LmH_88w4o

 

[CauZuki]

See post #1026, #1028 & #1031

None of those questions apply , since I am not in that category so there is nothing for me to justify. I liked the trade my only nitpick was on adding a pick , which we can disagree on but doesn't change the fact that I wasn't one of the posters that argued that potential mattered with the Sergachev trade since Drouin has imo equivalent potential and is closer to reaching it.

So once again , I repeat can you please provide where I dodged your question? I'm well aware that I can make some extreme claims but I'm not known for not owning up to my arguments.