7 Game Series 84 Oilers or 02 Wings (All Players in Prime)

[Fred Taylor]

Seriously....

I run the 03-04 Leafs up the pole and no one has mentioned the 90-91 Penguins with Lemieux, Francis, Trottier, Jagr, Murphy, Coffey, Recchi, Mullen, Stevens, Young ....

This "in their Prime" idea hits a home run with this team.

Actually this team may be even better than the 02 Wings.

 

[redbull]

I think many are forgetting just how dominant that Oilers team was.

- They scored almost 100 more goals than the next highest team, finished with 119 pts, next highest 104.
- In the playoffs, the top 13 players with the highest +/- were ALL OILERS.
- they finished the playoffs 15-4 with the last three wins 7-2, 7-2, 5-2
- against, arguably, one of the best teams ever, AND - that's the biggest part of this equation when comparing versus just names on a screen.

And not unlike the Canada Cups, Gretzky alone was uniquely capable of dominating a series, even against the best of the best. And I'd say that Soviet team was easily as good as any NHL team since. Not even close.

Once those Oilers learned how to win, I'd say they were the best team I've ever seen.

I think those Oilers should be left off comparisons vs teams in other eras, they were something special.

 

[seventieslord]

I think many are forgetting just how dominant that Oilers team was.

- They scored almost 100 more goals than the next highest team, finished with 119 pts, next highest 104.
- In the playoffs, the top 13 players with the highest +/- were ALL OILERS.
- they finished the playoffs 15-4 with the last three wins 7-2, 7-2, 5-2
- against, arguably, one of the best teams ever, AND - that's the biggest part of this equation when comparing versus just names on a screen.

And not unlike the Canada Cups, Gretzky alone was uniquely capable of dominating a series, even against the best of the best. And I'd say that Soviet team was easily as good as any NHL team since. Not even close.

Once those Oilers learned how to win, I'd say they were the best team I've ever seen.

I think those Oilers should be left off comparisons vs teams in other eras, they were something special.

doesn't matter. we're not talking about time warping that team in to play the 2002 wings. We're talking about timewarping every player on both rosters to their prime, and then playing a series. There is no doubt that the better collection of "all-time" players was on the Red Wings. The 84 Oilers featured a great collection of players, and most of them were already in their prime so they don't get much better under this silly exercise (their 6 "key" players were pretty much at their best right then). The Red Wings feature an impressive collection of players who were past their prime (Yzerman, Shanahan, Larionov, Robitaille, Hull, Duchesne, Chelios, Hasek, technically Fedorov even if his age doesn't indicate it) and not there yet (Datsyuk, Avery).

The only players who were between 24 and 31 and played a significant role for the team were Lidstrom, Holmstrom and the Grind Line)

 

[LightningStorm]

Actually this team may be even better than the 02 Wings.

Absolutely not. It would be way harder to score against the 02 Wings than the 91 Pens if all players from both teams were in their primes.

Strictly Defensively:
Lidstrom and Chelios >>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffey and Murphy

When it comes to the goaltenders, I shouldn't even have to explain Hasek vs Barrasso.

 

[charliolemieux]

Absolutely not. It would be way harder to score against the 02 Wings than the 91 Pens if all players from both teams were in their primes.

Strictly Defensively:
Lidstrom and Chelios >>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffey and Murphy

When it comes to the goaltenders, I shouldn't even have to explain Hasek vs Barrasso.

Harder to score for mere mortals maybe but we're talking about Lemieux, Jagr and Coffey in their primes.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A few more "all-prime" teams. It really is a difficult task to find a team that on first glance could beat the 02 Detroit team. HOF in bold.

1975-76 Bruins

Cashman-Esposito-Hodge
Bucyk-Ratelle-O'Reilly
Marcotte-Sheppard-Schmautz
Johnathan-Savard-Forbes

Orr-Park
Vadnais-Smith
Doak-Milbury

Cheevers
Gilbert

1990-91 Penguins

Stevens-Lemieux-Jagr
Mullen-Trottier-Recchi
Cullen-Francis-Tanti
Brown-Pederson-Young

Coffey-Murphy
Roberts-Samuelsson
Zalapski-Johnson

Barrasso
Young

i'd just note that it seems unfair to include both players when one was traded for the other mid-season. i.e., cullen and zalapski/francis and samuelsson; rob brown/scott young; esposito and hodge/ratelle and park.

to respond to the discussion in the last several posts re: 2002 wings vs. 1991 pens, if you take out cullen, zalapski, and brown, that pens team isn't deep at all. you have pederson on the fourth line, and he was awesome. but you're also forced to play phil bourque. and the defense definitely isn't very good at all past the top four. the roster would look something like this:

stevens mario jagr
tanti trottier recchi
errey francis mullen
bourque pederson young

coffey murphy
samuelsson roberts
plug plug

barrasso
plug

note also that toni tanti was traded to buffalo mid-season. and that the better roster if you're going to include guys that were traded away AND guys they were traded for is the '92 pens. as is, i'd definitely see '02 wings beating the '91 pens.

 

[LightningStorm]

Harder to score for mere mortals maybe but we're talking about Lemieux, Jagr and Coffey in their primes.

Plus Francis and Trottier for Pittsburgh. However, Detroit has Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille, Shanahan, Fedorov, and Datsyuk all in their primes, which would also be an offensive powerhouse. However, Detroit would have a much easier time scoring if these 2 teams played (with everyone in their primes) because those Pittsburgh teams weren't known for their D and goaltending, while Detroit's D and goaltending are absolutely stifling. Even if the Pens can get past that great D the Wings would have, they would still have to get the puck past Hasek, arguably the most dominant goalie in NHL history. Not saying it would be impossible to score, especially when you have Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Trottier and Coffey all in their primes, but the 02 Wings would also be an offensive powerhouse with a much better balance of offense, defense, and goaltending.

 

[Alpha190]

Holy crap!

I feel dumber after reading this thread. Lidström and Gretzky are probably the 2 smartest hockey players to ever play the game. People are seriously underrating Lidstrom who is probably a top 3 dman (in my opinon the best).

The people who compare Fuhr to Hasek are laughable. Hasek peak is the best the hockey world has ever seen from a goaltender, EVER.

Datsyuk and Larionov. My god, their prime(s). Datsyuk is actually the perfect player to shut down Gretzky. I do think he'd do a much better job than Fedorov mainly because of his hockey IQ and awareness of the game is almost in the same area as Wayne, plus his handling of the stick is probably the best the hockey world has ever seen. There is no player in the world who has made people say "Did you just see what just he did?" like Pavel Datsyuk has. Now If Wayne does gets past Pavel or Sergei. He still has to pass by Lidström and Hasek.

People think the run and gun style of the Oilers would work in a tight checking, clutch and grab game of the late 90's and early 00's. It doesn't, there is no space for that. They would be shut down by the left wing lock and of Bowman's defensive system. The defensive system would kill the Oilers style of game.

Have you ever seen how open the ice is in the 80s compared to the late 90s to now? Jesus Christ, nostalgia apparently can get you so far!

 

[Sentinel]

Holy crap!

I feel dumber after reading this thread. Lidström and Gretzky are probably the 2 smartest hockey players to ever play the game. People are seriously underrating Lidstrom who is probably a top 3 dman (in my opinon the best).

The people who compare Fuhr to Hasek are laughable. Hasek peak is the best the hockey world has ever seen from a goaltender, EVER.

Datsyuk and Larionov. My god, their prime(s). Datsyuk is actually the perfect player to shut down Gretzky. I do think he'd do a much better job than Fedorov mainly because of his hockey IQ and awareness of the game is almost in the same area as Wayne, plus his handling of the stick is probably the best the hockey world has ever seen. There is no player in the world who has made people say "Did you just see what just he did?" like Pavel Datsyuk has. Now If Wayne does gets past Pavel or Sergei. He still has to pass by Lidström and Hasek.

People think the run and gun style of the Oilers would work in a tight checking, clutch and grab game of the late 90's and early 00's. It doesn't, there is no space for that. They would be shut down by the left wing lock and of Bowman's defensive system. The defensive system would kill the Oilers style of game.

Have you ever seen how open the ice is in the 80s compared to the late 90s to now? Jesus Christ, nostalgia apparently can get you so far!

Yep, that just about sums up my feelings, except I think Fedorov was no worse than Datsyuk in hockey sense and IQ. Plus his sheer speed. Had those two played together in their primes, I have a feeling they could shut down anybody. I mean: ANYBODY.

"This is my best sword. If on your way you meet God... God will be cut" ("Kill Bill, Vol. I")

 

[JackSlater]

Yep, that just about sums up my feelings, except I think Fedorov was no worse than Datsyuk in hockey sense and IQ. Plus his sheer speed. Had those two played together in their primes, I have a feeling they could shut down anybody. I mean: ANYBODY.

I'd take Fedorov in a shutdown role over Datsyuk without a hint of hesitation.

Anyway, I don't really see how this can be debated. Detroit is too deep for the Oilers. Comparable at forward and better at defence and goaltender.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Anyway, I don't really see how this can be debated. Detroit is too deep for the Oilers. Comparable at forward and better at defence and goaltender.

comparable at forward, maybe. but edmonton's first line kills detroit's. there's only one puck on the ice and it's 215 point gretzky vs. 155 point yzerman.

detroit certainly has the higher end defensemen in lidstrom and chelios. but fischer and duke would be bottom pair guys on the oilers, and krupp and olausson wouldn't crack the oilers' top six, maybe even top eight. and there is literally nobody on the wings beyond krupp and olausson that you would want against the '87 oilers all in their peak. if there are injuries (and this is a playoff series, right?), the oilers d goes nine deep. other than coffey and ruotsalainen, all are big, tough playoff tested warriors. if we're talking about the '95 wings, or the '97 wings, those are excellent, deep d-corps. '02 not so much.

in goal, well yeah. obviously big edge there for detroit.

i think it would be close, and have the oilers slightly ahead actually. i certainly don't see how it would be a walk for the red wings as some have suggested.


'02 wings:

robitaille yzerman hull
shanahan larionov fedorov
holmstrom datsyuk mccarty
maltby draper gilchrist/avery

lidstrom fischer
chelios duchesne
krupp olausson

hasek
legace


'87 oilers:

nilsson gretzky kurri (nilsson because his offensive vision would make sweet music with kurrzki)
krushelnyski messier anderson
tikkanen mactavish gare
lumley/hunter mclelland napier
buchberger semenko

coffey smith
huddy lowe
beukeboom/muni/mcsorley/ruotsalainen (don't sleep on how awesome peak mcsorley was in the '93 playoffs)
gregg

fuhr
moog

 

[danincanada]

comparable at forward, maybe. but edmonton's first line kills detroit's. there's only one puck on the ice and it's 215 point gretzky vs. 155 point yzerman.

The Red Wings would have too many great two-way centres to be bothered with only matching Yzerman against Gretzky. I think it would make more sense to match Yzerman (with two big wingers like Shanny and McCarty) against the Messier line and force Messier to worry about defending and getting his face punched in if he got dirty or tried to intimidate Yzerman. Detroit would have the ability to match both Fedorov and Datsyuk against Gretzky and then have either a sniper like Hull, which would pretty much cancel out Kurri, or a checker like Draper on the right side.

detroit certainly has the higher end defensemen in lidstrom and chelios. but fischer and duke would be bottom pair guys on the oilers, and krupp and olausson wouldn't crack the oilers' top six, maybe even top eight. and there is literally nobody on the wings beyond krupp and olausson that you would want against the '87 oilers all in their peak. if there are injuries (and this is a playoff series, right?), the oilers d goes nine deep. other than coffey and ruotsalainen, all are big, tough playoff tested warriors. if we're talking about the '95 wings, or the '97 wings, those are excellent, deep d-corps. '02 not so much.

You are severely underrating Krupp, Olausson and Duchesne. All were capable of moving the puck very well and playing very solid D. A prime Krupp (think '96 playoffs) and prime Duchesne would be a terrific 3rd pairing. Detroit would also have Slegr and Dandenault sitting on the sidelines as reserves so they would be deep too.

'02 wings:

robitaille yzerman hull
shanahan larionov fedorov
holmstrom datsyuk mccarty
maltby draper gilchrist/avery

lidstrom fischer
chelios duchesne
krupp olausson

hasek
legace

I'll leave the Oilers lineup to someone else but, again, I don't see any decent coach configuring the lines like this, especially when facing Gretzky. You don't counter Gretzky's line with an all offense line when you have both Fedorov and Datsyuk at your disposal. If Bowman is coaching this lineup he would find a way to get the most out of it and I don't think it would look anything like that.

The defense pairings don't make much sense either because you've got two LHS and two RHS players together. The two top pairings that did work in '02 were Lidstrom/Olausson and Fischer/Chelios to I'd venture to say those guys all at their absolute best would be just fine and then you have Duchesne/Krupp to deal with the Oilers 3rd or 4th lines.

 

[Sentinel]

Danincanada: excellent post. Wanted to say all those things, but you beat me to it. Fedorov and Datsyuk would most likely be used together against Gretzky. They both had enough tools in the box to skate with the Great One.

Also would like to point out that CSKA (with Larionov) had no problem beating the Oilers in the 1985-86 season.

 

[SoupNazi]

Wings quite easily.

 

[victor]

Danincanada: excellent post. Wanted to say all those things, but you beat me to it. Fedorov and Datsyuk would most likely be used together against Gretzky. They both had enough tools in the box to skate with the Great One.

Also would like to point out that CSKA (with Larionov) had no problem beating the Oilers in the 1985-86 season.

CKSA 1985-86 went 40gp, with 32 wins, 3 losses, and 5 ties. 219 goals for, and 79 against. Really stacked team, with Makarov, Larianov, Krutov, Fetisov, Kamensky, and an 18 year old defender named Vladimir Konstantinov.

Did they draft, or how did players get assigned to those teams?

I'm an Oiler fan, but that team in their prime would compete. They would give the 1987 Oilers (a much better team with better players than the one chosen in this thread) a run for their money.

 

[PhillyBluesFan]

I don't even think the 02 Red Wings need to be in their prime to beat the dynasty Oilers. The Wings are equal or better everywhere except the top 2 forward lines

 

[DanZ]

Harder to score for mere mortals maybe but we're talking about Lemieux, Jagr and Coffey in their primes.

We are also talking about Lidstrom, arguably the best defensive defenseman ever, Hasek, arguably the best goalie ever, and Chelios, one of the best defensive defensemen ever. And Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Larionov, etc., etc., would have even less trouble scoring on the Pens defense and Barasso

 

[toob]

comparable at forward, maybe. but edmonton's first line kills detroit's. there's only one puck on the ice and it's 215 point gretzky vs. 155 point yzerman.

You mean Edmonton's first line CENTER kills Detroit's. And 215 point Gretzky when he got those 215 points played with other Oilers in their prime including his winger, 2nd line center, and defenseman. He isn't getting much of a boost because he is 1) still playing with the same guys 2) those same guys were already in their prime. Compare with 155 point Yzerman scoring 155 with Gallant and Maclean and 40 point Chaisson on D and the huge upgrade he is getting with your lineup sandwiching him between Robitaille and Hull two guys who could score a ton without needing to take away from their centers possesion much...

 

[GuineaPig]

I don't even think the 02 Red Wings need to be in their prime to beat the dynasty Oilers. The Wings are equal or better everywhere except the top 2 forward lines

Eh... seven games is a small sample size, so the '02 Wings definitely could've beat the Oilers, but I hardly consider it likely.

Just look at the two teams' goal differentials:
+132
+64

 

[stan the caddy]

The Oilers had to beat a dynasty to become a dynasty. That's the best team of all time.

 

[Sentinel]

CKSA 1985-86 went 40gp, with 32 wins, 3 losses, and 5 ties. 219 goals for, and 79 against. Really stacked team, with Makarov, Larianov, Krutov, Fetisov, Kamensky, and an 18 year old defender named Vladimir Konstantinov.

Did they draft, or how did players get assigned to those teams?

I'm an Oiler fan, but that team in their prime would compete. They would give the 1987 Oilers (a much better team with better players than the one chosen in this thread) a run for their money.

Of course that CSKA team was stacked, because it had the power to pillage all of Soviet hockey. The point is: they beat Oilers handily, with Gretzky, Mess, Coffey, etc. in their primes. DRW02 was just as stacked, because Holland got every available "superstar-on-decline." Just to think what that team would be capable of doing, had all those stars been in their prime, should induce massive salivating.

In fact, the 1987 CSKA would probably give the "in their primes" DRW02 a harder time than the Oilers... but, of course, it would boil down to Hasek >>> Mylnikov and Bowman >> Tikhonov.

 

[Elvis P]

Forget this impossible all players in prime nonsense. If the actual teams played each other the Oilers would smoke them in 4 easily.

 

[Johnny Engine]

You know, as opposed to the entirely possible "hockey team goes barnstorming through time" scenario.

 

[danincanada]

Forget this impossible all players in prime nonsense. If the actual teams played each other the Oilers would smoke them in 4 easily.

Nonesense, if the actual teams played each other the 2002 Wings would crush the Oilers, whether it was the '84 or '87 version. Greztky was 41 years old and retired from hockey by '02.

Seirously though, this thread, having all prime players, is just as unrealistic as most discussion on here. Comparing players from 50 years ago to players of today is not, and cannot be, done using the scientific method. Too many variables and all of their peers and competition are different. It's all fantasy.

 

[DanZ]

Eh... seven games is a small sample size, so the '02 Wings definitely could've beat the Oilers, but I hardly consider it likely.

Just look at the two teams' goal differentials:
+132
+64

I hate when people post stats without context. You don't think the era those teams played in made a difference at all?

Forget this impossible all players in prime nonsense. If the actual teams played each other the Oilers would smoke them in 4 easily.

Yeah, no they wouldn't. And two teams that played in two different eras separated by 20 years with 99% of the players already retired is more possible then this thread's scenario?