7 Game Series 84 Oilers or 02 Wings (All Players in Prime)

[McKappa]

Again somebody COMPLETELY misses the point. We are talking IN THEIR PRIME! Lidstrom was better than Coffey, Hasek was way better than Fuhr, Chelios was better than Lowe, Detroit's 3rd and 4th lines (Robitaille-Larionov-Holmstrom and the Grinders) in their primes OBLITERATE Edmonton's 3rd and 4th lines. Are you really gonna tell me that Semenko was better than Shanahan? The only place where Oilers have a chance is the #1 centerman position, as Gretzky was, after all, the best player of all time, and possibly #2 centerman position, although I maintain that Yzerman was a better all-around player than Messier.

DRW02 has 4 HHOFers (Yzerman, Larionov, Hull, Robitaille) and 6 potential HHOFs (Lidstrom, Fedorov, Hasek, Shanahan, Datsyuk, Chelios). An argument can be made for even Draper and Holmstrom (long shots, I know). That's every bit as good (or better) than the Oilers.

Are you high?

 

[Hisch13r]

The game in 2002 was so much different and harder then 1984 so Wings would sweep

 

[Sentinel]

Are you high?

I'm sorry, did you actually watch Coffey in the Red Wings uniform? The man was out of position more than he was in, was a turnover machine, and even scored on his own net. Offensively he could do those end-to-end rushes that everybody drooled over, but defensively he was quite subpar.

As for Yzerman: better shot, better skating, better defensively, and he never mailed it in, like Mess did in Vancouver (while playing with two of the greatest wingers the world has ever known). To cap it off: do you really take Messier and Anderson over Yzerman and Hull in their primes?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm sorry, did you actually watch Coffey in the Red Wings uniform? The man was out of position more than he was in, was a turnover machine, and even scored on his own net. Offensively he could do those end-to-end rushes that everybody drooled over, but defensively he was quite subpar.

I watched him win the '95 Norris trophy and place 5th in Norris trophy voting in '96 while posting a +72 over his time in Detroit.

Not sure what you were watching.

As for Yzerman: better shot, better skating, better defensively, and he never mailed it in, like Mess did in Vancouver (while playing with two of the greatest wingers the world has ever known). To cap it off: do you really take Messier and Anderson over Yzerman and Hull in their primes?

Maybe before his knee injuries Yzerman could skate with Messier.. not after. Messier was a very good skater.

Maybe he became better defensively than Messier by the time Yzerman was a Selke threat, but not early on.

Steve Yzerman was never a 50 goal 100 point man and a Selke threat at the same time by any stretch.

You'll have to pick which one is your prime Steve Yzerman.

 

[tombombadil]

Bryan Trottier 1984 8 2

Daniel Alfredsson 2006 4 4

Daniel Alfredsson 2008 9 10

Doug Gilmour 1987 5 6

Doug Gilmour 1993 7 1

Doug Gilmour 1994 4 2

Henrik Zetterberg 2008 6 3

Jari Kurri 1983 9 2

Jari Kurri 1984 7 3

Jari Kurri 1985 2 4

Jari Kurri 1986 4 5

Jari Kurri 1987 2 10

Jari Kurri 1989 8 10

Jeremy Roenick 1992 7 9

Joe Sakic 2000 8 10

Joe Sakic 2001 2 2

Joe Sakic 2002 5 9

Mark Messier 1992 5 9

Martin St. Louis 2004 1 4

Michel Goulet 1984 3 8

Mike Modano 2002 9 6

Mike Modano 2003 10 6

Nicklas Backstrom 2010 4 10

Patrik Elias 2001 3 8

Pavel Datsyuk 2008 4 1

Pavel Datsyuk 2009 4 1

Peter Forsberg 1998 2 6

Peter Forsberg 1999 4 8

Peter Forsberg 2003 1 4

Rick Middleton 1984 10 4

Ron Francis 1995 5 1

Ron Francis 1996 4 2

Ron Francis 1997 8 8

Ron Francis 1998 5 4

Sergei Fedorov 1994 2 1

Sergei Fedorov 1996 9 1

Steve Yzerman 2000 10 1

Zac Parise 2009 5 8

 

[tombombadil]

hopefully everyone has already seen this list, and knows what it's about. If not, to make this list, a player must have finished top 10 in scoring, and in Selke voting in the same season.

Seems logical that this would be a pretty decent place to look when rating someone's "Two-way prime"

 

[Sentinel]

Not sure what your point is. Yzerman is there once, so is Mess.

 

[JetsFanForever]

hopefully everyone has already seen this list, and knows what it's about. If not, to make this list, a player must have finished top 10 in scoring, and in Selke voting in the same season.

Seems logical that this would be a pretty decent place to look when rating someone's "Two-way prime"

I might be mistaken (since I can't find the information) but wasn't Gretzky a finalist a few times for the Selke?

 

[tombombadil]

Not sure what your point is. Yzerman is there once, so is Mess.

sometimes people don't pick a side of a fence to defend tooth and nail. Some people just to like adding information to help aid other people in making decisions. There are a number of players relevant to this conversation on this list. What put me over the edge in order to put this here was the comment on Yzerman not having both elements of his game at the same time. He was a perrennial top 5 scorer with poor d in his younger days... and, at his very defensive peak, was also a fringe top 10 point producer. Personally, i would take the latter, but, at least there is a reference point here to go off of, regardless of how one feels about offensive production/defensive play.

I don't have the reference to top 20's in scoring, but Y's top 10 in 2000 at less than 80 points brings up something that might be happening in this thread - numbers from the 80's are being confused with Trap numbers. Other than Yzerman, the Wings primes are all in a lower scoring era than the primes of all the Oilers. It gets confusing, and I think people see Yzerman as a 155 point guy, who turned into an 80-90 point guy with defense. Problem being - an 85 point season in the Trap is worth close to 100 by today's standards, and 155 in the 80's, looks more like 120 by today's. The point of that is that I don't think Yzerman lost as much of his offensive game as it first appears. He slid, but he didn't turn from a top offensive producer into a checking line center (ala Trottier) - he turned from a top offensive producer into a top defensive forward who still had B+ level offense.

As to the poster who posted Gretz having Selke votes... I'm going to do some googling for that right now. I have never heard it, but maybe someone can post something.

 

[tombombadil]

All I have found is that Gretzky had 1 thirds place vote in 1985, and one similar vote in 86. All i found is an old hf thread on his defense. Perception seemed to be that he had a lot of takeaways and shorties, but also an enormous amount of goals against at even strength.

I was a kid when he was playing in Edmonton, and wasn't watching defense, sadly. They were just the high-flying Oilers that everyone loved, and I don't believe the media really broke down the game in as much detail in those days. I was more aware of his game in LA and St.Louis, before I dropped out of watching for a few years (NYR). I thought he was extremely bad defensively/physically. Imo, he was not a backchecker, and not a guy who did any work on the boards. Rather, he was a guy who, with the right linemates (guys who did the work on the boards, and forced loose pucks and bad passes) could read a play and intercept a ton of passes.

Anyways, that's all mostly conjecture. Two 3rd place votes (not 3rd place finishes) is the only concrete stuff i have.

 

[Hobnobs]

I watched him win the '95 Norris trophy and place 5th in Norris trophy voting in '96 while posting a +72 over his time in Detroit.

Not sure what you were watching.

We watched him in the playoffs. You know, when it matters.

 

[BraveCanadian]

We watched him in the playoffs. You know, when it matters.

Right here is Paul Coffey's playoff resume:

4 Time Stanley Cup Champion - 1984, 1985, 1987, 1991
7 Time Stanley Cup Finalist - With 4 Different Teams
Canada Cup Winner & Canada Cup All Star

 

[toob]

I watched him win the '95 Norris trophy and place 5th in Norris trophy voting in '96 while posting a +72 over his time in Detroit.

Not sure what you were watching.

He could win all the Norris trophies and have all the high +/- you want. Doesnt change the fact that he won those Norris trophies on his offense and got those +/- stats on his offense.

A lot of the hate Coffey gets from Wings fans is exaggerated and unfair. But it IS understandable. Because there was a basis for it. Coffey's offense yes is amazing. It is what made his 95 year the best year for a D ive seen and im basically comparing with Lidstrom here. But you arent exaggerating too much to say he sucked on D relative to a normal franchise D.

Maybe before his knee injuries Yzerman could skate with Messier.. not after. Messier was a very good skater.

Maybe he became better defensively than Messier by the time Yzerman was a Selke threat, but not early on.

Steve Yzerman was never a 50 goal 100 point man and a Selke threat at the same time by any stretch.

You'll have to pick which one is your prime Steve Yzerman.

When was Messier ever a Selke threat? Oh right never. So why does early Yzerman need Selke level defense to compare on that front? I dont know why people have to foil Selke Yzerman with an anachronistic awful D Yzerman because Yzerman doesnt agree: "I always considered myself a decent two-way player," he said. "It's just that I never got noticed about playing defense until I stopped scoring."

 

[Sentinel]

4 Time Stanley Cup Champion - 1984, 1985, 1987, 1991
7 Time Stanley Cup Finalist - With 4 Different Teams
Canada Cup Winner & Canada Cup All Star

Lidstrom: 4 Time SC Champion, 6 Time Finalist, Olympic Gold winner, and way more Norrises. But, unlike Coffey, he won Norrises based not just on his offense, but on his impeccable defense as well. As for Coffee, read the neighboring thread.

Lidstrom >> Coffey all around and Lidstrom >>>>> Coffey defensively. Defensively DRW02 >>> EO84.

 

[LightningStorm]

If the 2002 Detroit Red Wings had all their players in their prime they would be the greatest team in NHL history. Heck, they still won not only the Stanley Cup but also the President's trophy that year. Of course, this team with all their players in their primes would never exist because the payroll would be completely unreal.

 

[tony d]

It would be an extremely close series but I'll give it to the Wings in 7.

 

[tombombadil]

If the 2002 Detroit Red Wings had all their players in their prime they would be the greatest team in NHL history. Heck, they still won not only the Stanley Cup but also the President's trophy that year. Of course, this team with all their players in their primes would never exist because the payroll would be completely unreal.

Finally someone says it like it is. I came back on here in appreciation of this. The nostalgia around here is insane.

That lineup of guys, all in their prime, is absolutely off the charts - and you are also right that the payroll would be ridiculously high.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

wouldn't it be more interesting to say '87 oilers, when they have tikkanen, ruotsalainen, kent nilsson, danny gare, steve smith, plus beukeboom, mactavish, mcsorley, krushelnyski, and muni? the only impact guy lost would be linseman, i think.

 

[tombombadil]

wouldn't it be more interesting to say '87 oilers, when they have tikkanen, ruotsalainen, kent nilsson, danny gare, steve smith, plus beukeboom, mactavish, mcsorley, krushelnyski, and muni? the only impact guy lost would be linseman, i think.

ya, it would. to me, anyways. I think the Gretzky nostalgics would get angry that that was even a poll, though. The addition of Nilsson, alone, in his prime, adds a ton to their roster.

Sort of a silly concept, in the first place, the in their primes thing. But, under those rules, I am disheartened by the amount of people supporting the Oil in this one. It just isn't close, in this context.

 

[Sentinel]

ya, it would. to me, anyways. I think the Gretzky nostalgics would get angry that that was even a poll, though. The addition of Nilsson, alone, in his prime, adds a ton to their roster.

Sort of a silly concept, in the first place, the in their primes thing. But, under those rules, I am disheartened by the amount of people supporting the Oil in this one. It just isn't close, in this context.

Absolutely. The 1987 Oilers would certainly give Wings the run for their money, mainly because you trade Semenko for Tikkanen. But still 2002 Wings IN THEIR PRIME would be the best team in history by a large margin.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Absolutely. The 1987 Oilers would certainly give Wings the run for their money, mainly because you trade Semenko for Tikkanen. But still 2002 Wings IN THEIR PRIME would be the best team in history by a large margin.

Not to mention you're adding a grinding forward with multiple 50 goal seasons in Gare with the 1987 crew. Gare and Tikkanen in their prime is an ATD checking line dream.

 

[seventieslord]

Not to mention you're adding a grinding forward with multiple 50 goal seasons in Gare with the 1987 crew. Gare and Tikkanen in their prime is an ATD checking line dream.

And Nilsson in 132 point form brings considerably more secondary offense.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Absolutely. The 1987 Oilers would certainly give Wings the run for their money, mainly because you trade Semenko for Tikkanen. But still 2002 Wings IN THEIR PRIME would be the best team in history by a large margin.

if you even still need semenko with mcsorley on the blueline, he actually started the '87 season on the oilers.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Cherrypicking the 1987 Oilers roster for the best possible collection of players, actual real life lines be damned:

Kurri - Gretzky - Anderson
Nilsson - Messier - Krushelnyski
Tikkanen - MacTavish - Gare
Napier - McLelland - Lumley
Hunter

Coffey - Lowe
Huddy - Ruotsalainen
Smith - Beukeboom
Muni

Fuhr
Moog

Put Krusher up on the second line so we can all collectively wet our pants over that third line.
The Wings have Hasek and the Chelios/Lidstrom combo over this team, but the Oilers may have better forwards top to bottom, and defensive depth.

Edit: this is narrow enough that I'd give it to the Oilers if that was Dale Hunter, but unfortunately it's Dave.

 

[Oillio*]

oilers. sweep. not close.