Post-Game Talk: #61: FLYERS at Canadiens, Thursday, Feb. 21, 2019, 7:30 pm ET

[Ruck Over]

The TDL is Monday, they had to get Elliott into a couple games if they wanted any hope of trading him - the team trading for him wants help down the stretch and has to have confidence he's healthy for at least the next month.

This is all well and good, and Elliott has looked decent in his return, nay, he's actually looked good. I'm sure fancy stats will back that up, SSS alert. But if we're going on this premise of yours, doesn't it make more sense to give Elliott starts, instead of relief appearances? Do you realize how short sighted a comment that is? Had Hart, & the Flyers, not shat the bed twice in a row, blazingly fast into the game, Elliott doesn't sniff ice-time, and your point is moo. Further more, it would then stand to reason that Elliott, based off this hypothesis of featuring him for trading purposes, should get the start on Saturday against the Pens, to further show he is healthy and capable.

Do you think Elliott is going to start on Saturday night?

 

[Ruck Over]

i did not say they can't skate. Im saying they wer not on par with what we saw last night . Drouin, domi, byron Gally, are among the fastest players in the league. Farabee's speed is your average nhler now a days. . The game has changed so much so quickly even for fans. The game is all about fast puckhandling forwards that can enter teh zone time and time again with ease.

Hey, this is a false argument. Gretzky wasn't fast, nor was Dale Hawerchuk. The puck moves faster than any skater. What the Flyers need to do, what they repeatedly fail at so often, is crisp clean passing. "Fast" teams sometimes have one or two guys that can Mighty Ducks Luis Mendoza every few shifts, but the consistent play fast teams distribute and receive the puck quickly, decisively, efficiently.

Take a look at the Flyers lone goal of the game. Crisp passing, in tight spaces, with moving forwards, set up a deflection and clean goal. That wasn't the product of foot speed alone. That's what the Canadians were doing to us, picking us apart with passing. Jake isn't fast, but he can enter the zone time and time again with ease.

 

[Striiker]

Why can't we just avoid overreacting to a loss... just this once?

If it were actually true that this team is too slow to compete with a team like Montreal then we wouldn't have beat them 5-2 last month.

But of course looking at the big picture isnt how things are done around here. Every loss has to be followed by exaggerations and ridiculous complaints.

Our problem isn't skill or speed or personnel anything else. The problem is coaching and player usage. It really couldn't be more obvious. We've seen the Flyers outplay fast teams like Montreal and Tampa... so clearly the ability to keep up (and more) is there.

We lost yesterday because of bad goaltending and bad coaching. Simple as that.

 

[deadhead]

The game has changed over the last five years or so, there is more room for small fast forwards to skate. Speed is less valuable on defense, where size still matters, but slow defensemen are passe (L Schenn, Grossman, etc).
I doubt the SC Kings would have a chance at a Cup next decade playing that style of hockey. You can't clutch and hook to slow down speed guys anymore, you have to take good angles and cut them off.

Doesn't mean a team has to have 12 speed merchants on the ice, rather, if you just have a bunch of average speed guys you're going to struggle with fast teams getting behind you all game.

Vegas for example, depends on team speed to aggressively forecheck, TB and Montreal use a handful of quick forwards to quickly flip the ice.

You still need balance, guys like Lindblom who'll go get the puck, guys who can shoot. And yes, it's not about pure speed, speed, quickness and puck handling skills and vision. Especially "burst," the ability to get to full speed quickly and beat someone to the puck.

Farabee is well above average, his skating has improved significantly since he was drafted and should improve more as he fills out and adds leg strength. But he's not a speed merchant. Nor does he has to be - solid two way forwards just need good speed.

 

[deadhead]

Our problem isn't skill or speed or personnel anything else. The problem is coaching and player usage. It really couldn't be more obvious. We've seen the Flyers outplay fast teams like Montreal and Tampa... so clearly the ability to keep up (and more) is there.

We lost yesterday because of bad goaltending and bad coaching. Simple as that.

When was the last time we outplayed TB?
Montreal has been a work in progress this year, they were a much better team last night than a month ago.

Flyers have struggled with speed for most of this decade, when they're "on" and get top goaltending they can compete, but they're often skated off the ice on an off night (and that's the test of "talent," can you win with your C+ game?). Flyers are not a slow team, they're average speed wise but below average in size, especially on defense, a bad combination.

Look at the TB defense, 6 of 7 are 215 lbs or more, Flyer defense, Hagg and now Myers, with Morin coming. And you wonder why Hagg plays? We have a bunch of 200-205 lb guys who struggle moving players out of the crease (and Hagg isn't great at that either), which is why you see so many screened shots.

There's a reason Hextall draft St Ivany and Ginning, even in this day and age, you need big bodies to balance puck movers.

 

[deadhead]

This is all well and good, and Elliott has looked decent in his return, nay, he's actually looked good. I'm sure fancy stats will back that up, SSS alert. But if we're going on this premise of yours, doesn't it make more sense to give Elliott starts, instead of relief appearances? Do you realize how short sighted a comment that is? Had Hart, & the Flyers, not shat the bed twice in a row, blazingly fast into the game, Elliott doesn't sniff ice-time, and your point is moo. Further more, it would then stand to reason that Elliott, based off this hypothesis of featuring him for trading purposes, should get the start on Saturday against the Pens, to further show he is healthy and capable.

Do you think Elliott is going to start on Saturday night?

I think if Hart doesn't get pulled, they find a way to give Elliot one start if Fletcher thinks they're out of the playoffs.

Fletcher is in a tough spot, his interim HC and his boss both want to win now, and he can't just say play this guy to up his trade value b/c we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making the playoffs. But Fletcher has made it clear he's focused on next year's team. And the only way to get any value for Elliott is to show he's healthy.

 

[baudib1]

My point that started this debate wasn't based on one loss, but rather a seasons-long trend where the Flyers can't handle teams with speed, even mediocre ones like Montreal. Detroit constantly gives us fits with Larkin/AA. Think back to Barzal destroying us last year, when the Isles sucked.

A lot of that is personnel and matchups, like Hakstol putting Lehtera on Barzal. A lot of it is singularly MacDonald. We need to ditch Hagg and MacDonald obviously and stop icing pairs that can't skate or pass like Hagg-Gudas.

On offense it's something of a system problem. Our breakouts are awful and archaic. Half our defensemen are a total disaster on breakouts and our forwards don't support well, and Simmonds can't accept a pass to save his life.

There are indeed some slow guys but Couts is a great player even on one leg, as he showed in the playoffs. It would indeed be nice to have a true threat who can change the game in an instant like Panarin or Duchene.

 

[baudib1]

I couldn't give fewer f***s about showcasing Elliott. Why couldn't Talbot backup last night?

Play Hart 15 games and Talbot 6 the rest of the way.

 

[Ruck Over]

I think if Hart doesn't get pulled, they find a way to give Elliot one start if Fletcher thinks they're out of the playoffs.

Fletcher is in a tough spot, his interim HC and his boss both want to win now, and he can't just say play this guy to up his trade value b/c we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making the playoffs. But Fletcher has made it clear he's focused on next year's team. And the only way to get any value for Elliott is to show he's healthy.

Not only did you not answer my question, you answered a question not asked.

Premise- Elliott needed to get into games to be trade considerable. Returning from injury, brief AHL showing.
Reality- Elliott has made two appearances replacing a pulled goalie in the 1st period of consecutive games. In those two relief appearances (1hr 38m of regulation game time), he surrendered 3 goals, but made many fine, dandy, saves.
Question- If the Flyers are trying to feature Elliott for trade, did it not make more sense to start him rather than relief appearance him?
Question#2- Are the Flyers going to start Elliott in their last remaining game prior to the TDL?

 

[deadhead]

See post above showing Fletcher's dilemma - if the Saturday game wasn't the stupid stadium game (overkill, a great novelty, but silly on a regular basis, especially in non-cold weather cities in late February), I think Elliott would almost certainly start - probably should anyway to let Hart clear his head - but would Scott be unhappy?

 

[Striiker]

My point that started this debate wasn't based on one loss, but rather a seasons-long trend where the Flyers can't handle teams with speed, even mediocre ones like Montreal. Detroit constantly gives us fits with Larkin/AA. Think back to Barzal destroying us last year, when the Isles sucked.

A lot of that is personnel and matchups, like Hakstol putting Lehtera on Barzal. A lot of it is singularly MacDonald. We need to ditch Hagg and MacDonald obviously and stop icing pairs that can't skate or pass like Hagg-Gudas.

On offense it's something of a system problem. Our breakouts are awful and archaic. Half our defensemen are a total disaster on breakouts and our forwards don't support well, and Simmonds can't accept a pass to save his life.

There are indeed some slow guys but Couts is a great player even on one leg, as he showed in the playoffs. It would indeed be nice to have a true threat who can change the game in an instant like Panarin or Duchene.

Last year we were:

2-0-1 against Detroit
3-0-0 against Montreal
1-1-2 against NYI
1-1-1 against Tampa

We can handle teams with speed. But for whatever reason every time we lose this myth resurfaces.

The real problem are specific individuals (Hagg, MacDonald), goaltending, and coaching. Speed, talent, etc aren't.

 

[baudib1]

Last year we were:

2-0-1 against Detroit
3-0-0 against Montreal
1-1-2 against NYI
1-1-1 against Tampa

We can handle teams with speed. But for whatever reason every time we lose this myth resurfaces.

We JUST played Detroit and Montreal and they give us tons of problems, even in games we win. Montreal has added about 4 guys to the roster who can all fly. Tampa has scored 17 goals in 3 games against us.

 

[Ruck Over]

See post above showing Fletcher's dilemma - if the Saturday game wasn't the stupid stadium game (overkill, a great novelty, but silly on a regular basis, especially in non-cold weather cities in late February), I think Elliott would almost certainly start - probably should anyway to let Hart clear his head - but would Scott be unhappy?

The Stadium Series game is all the more reason if what you said was true, the Flyers would've started Elliott intentionally one of these past two games, instead of the relief appearance action he got. The Flyers knew about the Saturday night game before starting Hart these past two games.

 

[Striiker]

We JUST played Detroit and Montreal and they give us tons of problems, even in games we win. Montreal has added about 4 guys to the roster who can all fly.

We beat Detroit in both games and in Montreal goaltending was the problem.

 

[Rebels57]

Hey, this is a false argument. Gretzky wasn't fast, nor was Dale Hawerchuk. The puck moves faster than any skater. What the Flyers need to do, what they repeatedly fail at so often, is crisp clean passing. "Fast" teams sometimes have one or two guys that can Mighty Ducks Luis Mendoza every few shifts, but the consistent play fast teams distribute and receive the puck quickly, decisively, efficiently.

Take a look at the Flyers lone goal of the game. Crisp passing, in tight spaces, with moving forwards, set up a deflection and clean goal. That wasn't the product of foot speed alone. That's what the Canadians were doing to us, picking us apart with passing. Jake isn't fast, but he can enter the zone time and time again with ease.

Yeah they don't pass well because they are always too far apart. When they actually move up as a tight-knit unit, they pass fine. They have plenty of skilled passers but the further the pass has to be made, the less likely it connects.

 

[Striiker]

Yeah they don't pass well because they are always too far apart. When they actually move up as a tight-knit unit, they pass fine. They have plenty of skilled passers but the further the pass has to be made, the less likely it connects.

That's what happens when you have an interim coach who caused the exact same problems in the AHL.

His "system" is the problem, along with player usage.

 

[baudib1]

We beat Detroit in both games and in Montreal goaltending was the problem.

I seem to remember you complaining pretty loudly about how badly we played in the 3-1 win. And the 6-5 OT game that involved blowing a 5-1 lead definitely qualifies as having problems.

Montreal had 40 shots and a midget had a hat trick.

 

[deadhead]

Detroit had speed a few years ago, now they're all on walkers.
Montreal was awful last year, they've added speed and a better coach.
Islanders were a clusterf--- last season.
Tampa Bay got more physical in the offseason.

It's not that this team can't play with fast teams, they just can't do it on an extended basis.
Pens outskated them in the playoffs.

Who has good speed among the forwards?
TK, Patrick (now that he's found a 2nd gear), and Bailey. Laughton is a notch below.
Voracek and Raffl have slowed down, and the rest, meh.

Frost, NAK and Farabee will add speed, but they could use 1-2 more guys with speed and skill on the top 9 for balance.

 

[Striiker]

I seem to remember you complaining pretty loudly about how badly we played in the 3-1 win. And the 6-5 OT game that involved blowing a 5-1 lead definitely qualifies as having problems.

Montreal had 40 shots and a midget had a hat trick.

I complained about how badly we were coached during that win. That's been the source of the problems for a long time now. Ghost being misused, the PP being a joke, the usage of our AHL defensemen, the forward lines being terrible, and the complete lack of system.

THAT is our problem. PLAYING slow, not BEING slow.

 

[baudib1]

I complained about how badly we were coached during that win. That's been the source of the problems for a long time now. Ghost being misused, the PP being a joke, the usage of our AHL defensemen, the forward lines being terrible, and the complete lack of system.

THAT is our problem. PLAYING slow, not BEING slow.

I mean I said the same thing I think. But we could still use a fast top-6 forward.

 

[Striiker]

I mean I said the same thing I think. But we could still use a fast top-6 forward.

Sure, adding more skill and speed is never a bad thing. It's impossible to have too much of either.

I'm just saying that our current speed isn't the problem, so the current roster doesn't need major changes. Same as skill isn't the problem, despite the cries of some.

 

[baudib1]

Sure, adding more skill and speed is never a bad thing. It's impossible to have too much of either.

I'm just saying that our current speed isn't the problem, so the current roster doesn't need major changes. Same as skill isn't the problem, despite the cries of some.

The (lack of) skill of AMac, Hagg and Simmer is definitely a problem.

 

[Striiker]

The (lack of) skill of AMac, Hagg and Simmer is definitely a problem.

Of course, all three of them need to be gone.

But I was talking about overall.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Part of the reason it looks like other teams are much faster than the Flyers is the way they carry speed through the neutral zone. Yes, breakout design is a big part of that, as is the state of Hagg and MacDonald, but so is Forward personnel and I don't mean from a speed standpoint.

They have exactly one Forward you can scheme up space for on a breakout and reasonably expect a controlled zone entry. One. Until that changes, your transition game isn't going to generate true threat on a consistent basis with 6 Hampus Lindholms back there. Foot speed would be nice, but speed of threat transference is what I want most from a Forward right now.

Panarin is ideal. I don't really care what the number is unless we're getting towards 14. The difference between signing Panarin at 11 and 13 is that you have to churn one more roster spot with reasonable quality, which happens to be coming in spades.

 

[Striiker]

It'd be a real shame if we had to sacrifice Hagg to fit in Panarin...

What would we do without those hits?