5th Greatest all time

tarheelhockey

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I wonder if such a slow heartbeat changes your raw spatial and temporal perceptions. Like you see the game slower, you have an extra "temporal space" to make a move when a player is pressuring you or something of that nature.

I had some cat allergies which gave me moderate shortness of breath, and I realized the potential lenght of my chains of thought was shorter when doing mathematics in that state compared to when I could breathe deeply. Maybe I'm imagining things but it's an intriguing thought.

If nothing else, efficiently getting oxygen to your brain is a factor.

To me, this is one of the big selling points on team conditioning. You don’t want a guy making a key play when his head is spinning from fatigue.
 

Troubadour

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your timeline is right, but i'm more inclined to think it's because the money got so big that you'd be insane to give away that competitive advantage. like, how much did sergei zubov make in the mid-90s? i'm guessing something in the ballpark of $700 grand? what would a zubov with better stamina make? $900k? that's obviously not an insignificant amount of money but it's also not $3+ million a year like that difference might be today.

in 2020, even a guy who somehow made it to the highest level while being a regular smoker would just pay for quitting boot camp in the offseason, if not by choice then his agent and the team would make him.

This is insanely presumptuous and it ignores the fundamentals of addiction which are irrational.

I believe many, many NHL players still keep their smoking habit, but they keep it private. I also believe many NHL coaches smoke too, and for those, it must be harder to convince players to give up.

I mean, NHL players' drug of choice these days seems to be coke, and it's not like even that gives you much of an edge in the long run, but they keep doing it, right?
 
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buffalowing88

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This is insanely presumptuous and it ignores the fundamentals of addiction which are irrational.

I believe many, many NHL players still keep their smoking habit, but they keep it private. I also believe many NHL coaches smoke too, and for those, it must be harder to convince players to give up.

I mean, NHL players' drug of choice these days seems to be coke, and it's not like even that gives you much of an edge in the long run, but they keep doing it, right?

You're being the 'insanely presumptuous' one if you think that coaches and players in the modern NHL are smoking and doing coke. The very few players who have been affiliated with coke or harder drugs have been pretty much out of the league for some time now and as a 30-something, I can say that every time I go to a bar today as opposed to ten years ago, there are so many fewer young adults who smoke in general. The athletes today make their money by being at the top of their game. A beer or two here and there and in the off-season doesn't hurt, but I can't imagine more than 5 percent smoke at all, let alone regularly. I can't attest to the coke as much but you're using a lot of hearsay.
 

Sentinel

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Jagr did very well without Francis and Lemieux, too. And the Pens were a shambles.

They are quite similar in some ways - highly touted prospects who were lost in team depth and took awhile to get going, followed by offensive peaks that are really only behind 66, 99 and 9 - and are very different in others - Lafleur is quite clearly better in playoff performances and team victories, and Jagr’s longevity was exceptional, while Guy fell off a cliff.
I actually have them right next to each other:

13. Guy Lafleur (RW)
14. Jaromir Jagr (RW)
 
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Troubadour

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The athletes today make their money by being at the top of their game. A beer or two here and there and in the off-season doesn't hurt, but I can't imagine more than 5 percent smoke at all, let alone regularly. I can't attest to the coke as much but you're using a lot of hearsay.

Pro athletes of any era made their money by being at the top of their game which has nothing to do with anything here. If anything, the athletes today deal with way more stress and pressure than in any prior era which again makes them more vulnerable to any sort of escape desire/addiction.

Plus, where there's a lot of money, there's a lot of coke.

Of course, the public demands their athletes to be pristine clean. So what do they do. Keep it hidden. And if anything leaks, it's an aberration, misunderstanding, whatever.

It's not a hearsay to acknowledge the whole league is on all sorts of pills. Has been for decades. Uppers, downers, you name it. Basically, the combination of stress, incessant competition within your team, and grueling travel schedule call for it. Plus, of course, having to play with injuries at crucial times (plenty of pain killers are addictive).

It's not just Kuznetsov. What about Hudler? As far as we know, and we haven't been told that much given that athletes need to appear pristine clean, he coked his brain off. He required a line right on an airplane and asked the staff where he could puff away some wack.

What about Svatos?

From that article you probably failed to grasp:

I am certainly not unique," Clune wrote in a July 1, 2015, story published on The Players Tribune website. "There are players in the NHL right now who are suffering and you would never know it from looking at their stat sheet or how hard they compete in practice. … Plenty of teammates and coaches had suspicions about me over the years, but nobody knew how bad it was. I was just the wild man. Every hockey team has one. Or 10.
 
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Voight

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I personally know more than a handful of NHL players that use it. Typically in the off season when they re off and usually partying. But it is fairly common.

The thing I always see brought up is "players used to smoke all the time" based almost entirely on Lafleur being a well known smoker.

IIRC didn't Lemieux smoke like a pack a day to?
 
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wetcoast

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Roy and Lemieux were born on the same day, not just the same day of the year.

I'm not really looking to get involved in any great detail in the tedious debate about how likely one group is to be successful even if that group is smaller, but clusters of talent, or at least clusters of people who succeed to a tremendous level, do happen in geographic areas in certain timeframes both inside and outside of sports. I'd be more interesting in looking at why a successful cohort existed than trying to claim that a successful cohort couldn't have existed because a bigger cohort was less successful.


I think part of the "problem" with the argument as who is the 5th best and the chronological makeup of the top 10 is a glass ceiling with top 5 or top 10 scoring and trophy counting (largely SC's as regular season "dynasties" are largely ignored) not being adequately weighted between a 6 team league and then a much lager one.

Never mind the salary cap and other issues like the expansion bump in the late 60's were many stars prolonged their careers in a larger league with no infusion of new talent streams.

The nature of the NHL has changed drastically and often in these comparisons posters act like it's the same conditions for a player in 1950 than 2015 for some weird reason.
 

Dingo

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I actually have them right next to each other:

13. Guy Lafleur (RW)
14. Jaromir Jagr (RW)
I would have them close, Im sure, too. I have a hard time with linear rankings (although they are fun) and i also have a really tough time comparing eras. my list would end up too slanted towards the modern day and would get torn up here, lol.
 

wetcoast

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Plus Fetisov and Makarov, 1958 birthdays, at #25 and #26.

The spread of players selected covers 105 years (Cyclone Taylor to Patrick Kane). Yet an 8-year period (1958-1965) has eight guys in the top 26.

Mathematically, we'd expect only seven or eight players from that window on the entire list, so in fact this little pocket of time is significantly over-represented in the top 26.

Funny, the howls of indignation seem to be absent in this instance.


Funny this thread is about the 5th best player in NHL history not the 26th eh?

The candidates for 5th and the original post that I responded to form you had a very high number of 06 players, 3 from the same team as I recall and my observation is that has a lot to due with trophy counting and top 5 and/0r top 10 scoring finishes in entirely differently composed leagues.

The Crosby/Beliveau example is a prime one were the main competition for Crosby (or his big 5 forwards grouping consisted of himself a maritimer, Joe Thornton and 2 Russians and an American in Kane.)

For Jean it was 4 other Canadian players with virtually zero players from either coast in the NHL during that time frame.

It is literally comparing apples and oranges.
 

wetcoast

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My list will almost certainly have Ovechkin and Crosby above Hull, Richard, Beliveau, and Harvey.

Ovechkin and Crosby compare to their generation similarly or better than those guys, except the current generation is significantly deeper and therefore harder to stand out from. But Ovie and Crosby have done it.

I have Gordie Howe easily above Orr and Lemieux, so if anyone is getting picked off among the Top 100's top 4, it's one of those two.

Or I might do a greatest list as well as a best list, where Orr and Lemieux's placements would probably have a bit of a variance.

It's a work in progress.

Well since you mentioned it, it has been a couple of years since you were asked about your list after your complaints about Ovi?
 

wetcoast

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Bringing this back to thinking about who belongs in the #5 spot...

Seems to me the most common candidates can be broken into the following categories:

Goalie inclusion awareness
Hasek
Plante
Roy

Personal choice for #2 defenseman

Bourque
Harvey
Lidstrom
Shore

Elite scoring wingers/big numbers category
Hull
Jagr
Ovechkin
Richard

All-round centers
Beliveau
Crosby
Morenz
Nighbor

That's a very wide field and I think one's choice of category is just as revealing as one's choice of player.

Does anyone really advocate for Plante as the 5th best of all time?

Or Morenz and even Nighbor?

Really I think it comes down to several players in Hasek, Beliveau and Crosby for the HOH section when people look at it right now in 2020.

Most of the other players, as great as they were just don't match up well against these 3 players.
 

wetcoast

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“Well rested” is an interesting way to describe a player returning from a poorly diagnosed fractured neck vertebrae.

Well interesting isn’t really the correct word.


Also for a player who is head and shoulders in per game scoring in the playoffs post lockout in a very large sample maybe the description of Crosby laying an egg isn't historically a correct way to describe him against other contenders for the 5th spot.

Crosby clearly stands out as the best player player post lockout given the regular season, playoff and overall metrics and context and it's not even really close even with the injuries.

NHL.com Stats

NHL.com Stats
 
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wetcoast

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In regards of longevity and players from the 50's-80's, do posters on here take into account the strides exercise and fitness have evolved since the days of Lafleur and company? Jagr was a front runner in terms of staying in game shape all year round and with some of the routines he used when it wasn't "trendy" yet. Lafleur and generations of players before hand, used training camp as the means to get into shape, where now a days, players stay in shape 12 months out of the year.


Sure but Lafleur dropped quite a bit at age 28 when Dionne was the same age and Marcel was still producing much better after him at that age.

Lafleur has an incredible peak on a dynasty, which helps his legacy a ton, but outside of that peak his resume is really lacking for even a top 15 player of all time nevermind the 5th best.
 

Gurglesons

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Here's my recollection of Crosby's career so far as well as some (mostly my) contemporaneous views:
(for TL;DR version, skip to end)

(NOTE: When grading playoff opposition, I'm primarily doing so against other playoff teams, not league-wide... and doing so on the basis of their overall strength and their defensive strength).

2006- 6th in scoring as a rookie... quite impressive, although perhaps a bit overshadowed by Ovechkin's thirds in points and (tie) goals.
2007- Wins the Ross... perhaps the hype is justified?
2008- Was competing for the Ross until injured... had a good playoff run, although one thing that struck me was how Jagr at age 36 appeared clearly the more impactful player in the playoff series vs. Crosby & Malkin. Not sure if it was then Jagr that called him out on the ice for basically being a whiny diver, but I know it was echoed by others (including Selanne) at various times.

2009- 3rd in scoring, behind both Malkin & Ovechkin, in what was the only season where all three were healthy and at/near peaks. While it was a fine season by Crosby, it was illustrative that his peak was never demonstrated to be above that of Ovechkin or Malkin. He won the great showdown with his rival in the playoffs, but each star performed well, and let's remember the Caps were a below average team defensively (league-wide, let alone among playoff teams). Then the Pens won their one Cup against a memorable team in the Crosby/Malkin era. This was also memorable for the series being moved up about a week, while the Wings' Datsyuk & Lidstrom were nursing injuries... and for the Pens, down 2 games to zero and trailing in game 3, having a blatant penalty for too many men missed/ignored while they controlled the puck in the offensive zone for a long stretch. If that clear, non-subjective penalty was called, do the Pens win that game? If they lose that game, do they come back from 3-0 vs. Detroit? The only spark the Pens had shown in the series to that point was Malkin throwing punches after game 2 ended... which also failed to result in any sort of infraction. Despite having 3 points in 7 games and being a (-3) vs. Detroit, and being outscored by 5 points by Malkin during the playoffs, many called for Crosby to get the Conn Smythe... a foreshadowing of the future.

2010- Tied for second in scoring with Ovechkin, behind Henrik Sedin. The only reason Ovechkin lost to Henrik and tied Crosby was that he missed 10 games (4 to injury, 2 each for two separate suspensions, and I believe 2 for his grandmother's passing?). After sailing through the first round, Crosby had 5 points and was (-2) in a 7 game series loss to a below average Habs team. He scored a tap-in on Canadian home ice vs. an underdog USA squad to win the gold. I understand the significance of this to Canadians thirsty for another gold, but it has little bearing on my evaluation of Crosby as a player.

2011- He got off to blazing hot start in the first half of the season. It wasn't long after Big Phil began a thread on HFB titled something like "Is Crosby the Best Player Since Mario?" that he got concussed while skating into his opponent as he completed skating a lazy circle in the defensive zone and was about to spectate the action up ice. So began the what-ifs, the could haves, & the would haves. At some point later I did study of best half-seasons since ~'94 and Crosby's 41 games of 2010-11 were not near the very top, even among players not named Mario, although still one of the best (top 10?).

2012- He puts up an excellent ppg avg. in only 22 games. Remember, he had 101 games off plus the previous playoffs, and is playing against players that have been grinding for ~60 games already. Some would say it was a disadvantage due to rust. I would say it was more of an advantage to be well-rested against tiring players, and all-time greats tend to shake off the rust during training. The Pens lose in the first round to Jagr and the Flyers in what was nothing less than a sh** show featuring a complete meltdown by the Pens, as they stooped to perhaps even below the Flyers' level of goonery, highlighted by Giroux's clean hit on Crosby late in the series, which pretty well sent the message that any comeback attempt would be futile.

2013- Another hot start for Crosby in the first 36 games, before his unfortunate injury. I know the injury is considered fluky, and not without reason, but a couple of things to remember: It was only 36 games into the season, so still very early by full-season standards. If you're gonna play "the world's best grinder" type of game at times, you're going to take more hits, sticks, and pucks than you otherwise would. Crosby had 6 points in 5 games against a Senators team that was defensively strong, although not so much overall. Crosby and the Pens were completely shut down offensively and absolutely clobbered in a sweep by the Bruins.

2014- Crosby wins his second Ross and dominates his competition. There's no denying it was a great year for Crosby, but his winning margin in the scoring race is frequently cited, while his relatively weak top-end competition is not. The six players immediately behind him combined for three other top 5 finishes in their careers: Perry was 3rd in 2011, and Giroux was 3rd in 2012 and 2nd in 2018. Crosby had a mediocre or worse series (6 in 6, -2) vs. Columbus, then a poor series (3 in 7, -2) as the Rangers came back from down 3-1 to win the series. At this point, several disappointing playoff series (some facepalm worthy) be damned (ignored), Crosby was back and according to HFB History consensus, as long as he could stay healthy (which I admittedly doubted at the time, and not without good reason, I think most would admit) he was about to reel off multiple consecutive Ross wins. With Ovechkin long past and far, far from his peak years... Malkin injured most years... and Crosby about to turn 27... this didn't seem so far-fetched. I was one of the few that cautioned "not so fast," that his was the first full season he had played since 2010 and since he was quite unusually rested (having only played 99 games +4 playoff rounds in 3 previous years), so it would be more reasonable to take a "wait and see" approach about his first back-to-back full seasons in a long while.

2015- I know he had the mumps for a bit and missed a few games, but I think it would take much more than that for some of the players he's competing with for #5 to finish third at age 27 behind Benn & Tavares. Remember, everybody and their brothers were predicting he would steamroll the competition for years to come... and Jamie Benn scores 87 points to take the Ross, while Crosby was third in 77 games. Nothing wrong with losing to a strong Rangers team in playoffs though.

2016- Sure, Kane's excellent, but Crosby at age 28 is outscored by 21 points by him? He's also outscored by Benn (again!) and within 3 points are a d-man (Karlsson) and an age 36 Thornton. This isn't exactly what I (and I assume others) mean by dominance. Here's where the narrative shifts, and somehow it's not important that Crosby is nowhere near dominant at ages 27-28, as now he's playing passable defense (rather than run and gun), as you'd expect of most centers, and the spin becomes all about team success: 2 points and (-3) in 6 games vs. hapless Caps?... "he shut down Ovechkin" (although he was outscored by him)... 5 points in 7 games (even) vs. Tampa?... well he did have one of his few memorable playoff goals in OT, but not at all dominant... 4 points, all assists, and even in 6 games vs. Sharks? meh. So he ends playoffs with 6 goals (tied with three others for third on team, 4 behind Kessel), 19 points (second, 3 behind Kessel) and a (-2), when Bonino was +9 and Kessel was +5... and he is awarded the Smythe. He had 11 points in 19 games and was (-3) against in the last three rounds, against teams that were actually any sort of competition. In total, Now it's all about how Crosby "won the Smythe in leading his team to the Cup." I can't even...

2017- Tied for second in scoring with Kane, 11 points behind McDavid. It's a strong season, especially considering he led in goals, but McDavid was in his second season at age 19/20 and hadn't even hit full stride, yet he beat Crosby's 89 points by 11. So in a couple of respects (Rocket, tied for 2nd in Ross) it's quite strong, and in a couple others (89 points, 11 points behind 19/20 y/o not yet at his peak), it doesn't seem quite as strong. The Pens win the Cup again, this time with an easier path through Ottawa in ECF & Nashville in SCF. Crosby's playoff performance was much better than in 2016, but his rankings were similar: tied for third in goals, second in points, and behind several other players in plus-minus. There's nothing wrong with his 27 points in 24 games (+4), and I wouldn't say he was particularly undeserving of this Smythe, but it was not a legendary performance by any means... about average for him on a per-game basis, as it would be similarly for many of his competitors for top 5... and the award could at least as easily have gone to Malkin (28 points, +9) or Kessel (23 points, +12), and may have gone to the goalie if not for injury (Fleury was very good, Murray was brilliant).

2018- 10th in scoring, behind teammates Malkin & Kessel, despite playing every game. He's also even in plus-minus (one of only three times so far he's been even or less) and had 29 goals (only other time < 30 in near-full season was 2015 with 28). He was strong in the playoffs, with 21 in 12, and with more goals and a better +/- than either of the previous two seasons in half as many rounds.

2019- He tied for 5th in scoring with Marchand, 28 points behind Kucherov. Similar to 2017, it's strong in some respects (100 points, although scoring jumped... tougher competition in Kucherov, McDavid, Kane, Draisatl, Marchand, MacKinnon, etc.), but still nowhere near competing for the Ross. He had 1 point and was (-4) while being swept by the Islanders.

2020- Injury cut into an already shortened season. Obviously unusual circumstances, but while 3 points in 4 games was okay, losing to Habs 3-1 was unexpected.

---------------------------

SUMMARY:

I think what would be most unique about Crosby, if not for multiple seasons shortened by injury, is his amazing consistency. He was already an excellent player when he entered the NHL and he's still an excellent player today, 14 seasons later. Not too many players can say that they were an excellent player (when they played) for 15+ seasons. This would almost certainly be enough, on its own, for him to be in the discussion for #5 IMO, but one problem is that since his argument heavily relies on such consistency, the injuries derailing that consistency in value really hurt his cause.

Another thing that hurts his cause is that his peak wasn't better than that of his best contemporaries. While Ovechkin and Malkin are great in their own right, Ovechkin's peak was rather brief, and Malkin has lost substantially more time to injury than even Crosby has. Just using adjusted points for simplicity's sake:

Best Seasons
-----------------
Crosby-- 122, 117, 116, 106, 106*, 100, 99, 98, 96, 93, 91
Malkin-- 122, 117, 115, 100, 89, 87, 82, 80, 80
Ovechkin 122, 117, 114, 107*, 94, 92, 91, 90, 89, 88
Thornton 121, 115, 113, 104, 94, 92, 89, 88
Kane----- 119, 111, 105*, 99*, 98, 94, 79
McDavid 116, 113*, 110, 110

* = shortened season

If we take shortened seasons at face value in terms of adjusted points, average of top 4 seasons for each:

Crosby ~115.3
Malkin ~113.5
Ovechkin ~115
Thornton ~113.3
Kane ~108.5
McDavid ~112.3

Adjusted points aren't perfect, or even my most preferred metric for point production, and there are rounding errors unaccounted for here, but it still illustrates that Crosby didn't dominate his competition or contemporaries in peak point production. Kane lags a bit behind, but not that far, and the other five or very close... all within ~3 adjusted points of each other. That's with McDavid only having four full seasons to date (injured during his rookie year). Of course Crosby overtakes each and every one of these players due to his consistently excellent play, and that certainly suffices vs. his contemporary competition in this area, but the fact that 4 others that mainly overlapped his era are roughly equal (and a newcomer is quickly threatening to surpass him in this area) isn't a great start in perhaps the most universal starting point in comparing scoring forwards.

Another thing that is surprising about Crosby is how many playoff series where he laid an egg to some degree: '09 vs. DET, '10 vs. MTL, '12 vs. PHI (team meltdown), '13 vs. BOS, '14 vs. NYR, '19 vs. NYI, '20 vs. MTL (big upset)... and the last 3 rounds of the '16 Cup run, he wasn't particularly impressive (11 pts. in 19 games, -3). Players are going to have bad series from time to time, but he had a lot of bad series, some really bad series, and was particulary ineffective in most series against the stronger defensive teams. It's difficult to remember even single playoff games where Crosby took over a game against a strong defensive team. I think the same can be said of his play in the Olympics, despite playing on the best team, golden goal or not. The Pens were also fortunate to mostly avoid the real powerhouses, because they tended not to fare well: They lost to DET the first time, then had a lot go their way to win the second time in 7... were humiliated the one time they played BOS... and completely avoided CHI/LA. Considering how often it's argued that injuries really hurt his career, because he was so dominant when he did play... I don't really find the data to back that up. It's not that he wasn't a great player, it's just that his peak seasons and his playoff play against teams that weren't relatively weak/mediocre wasn't any better than the other greats of his generations, and certainly not head and shoulders above them.

I still think Crosby surpasses the best of his contemporaries, Ovechkin, but not based on peak brilliance and perhaps not even on playoff performance. To me, it's based mostly on his prime being more consistently great in terms of point production and in terms of ES value (basically, his plus-minus comparative data is better, probably because the combination of possession/defense is stronger for Crosby than Ovechkin). That's all well and good, but when he takes a step up in class (at least in some cases), and takes on the likes of Beliveau, Hull, Mikita, Lafleur, and Jagr... it's gonna be a really tough road, unless his career takes an unexpectedly positive turn in individual production.

I stopped at 2008 being a "pretty good playoff" run while commending Jagr that year.

Crosby's 2008 is a better playoff run than anything Jags ever did in the playoffs.
 

Czech Your Math

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Not so sure about Lafleur being behind Jagr. Lafleur put up point-per-game numbers that were elite post-dynasty as well when the team was a shadow of its former self and he lost his centerman (Lemaire) and best defensive dman (Savard).

I can understand that viewpoint, as Lafleur had such a strong peak and was such a key piece of that dynasty. Since I look mainly at prime playoff performance by series and as a whole, rather than single playoff runs, I don't give him the same advantage in that area that most seem to do.

Jagr did very well without Francis and Lemieux, too. And the Pens were a shambles.

They are quite similar in some ways - highly touted prospects who were lost in team depth and took awhile to get going, followed by offensive peaks that are really only behind 66, 99 and 9 - and are very different in others - Lafleur is quite clearly better in playoff performances and team victories, and Jagr’s longevity was exceptional, while Guy fell off a cliff.

That's where I seem to disagree with most people. Lafleur had more great single playoff runs obviously, but I don't think he was a better playoff performer than Jagr, let alone "clearly."
 
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Dingo

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I can understand that viewpoint, as Lafleur had such a strong peak and was such a key piece of that dynasty. Since I look mainly at prime playoff performance by series and as a whole, rather than single playoff runs, I don't give him the same advantage in that area that most seem to do.



That's where I seem to disagree with most people. Lafleur had more great single playoff runs obviously, but I don't think he was a better playoff performer than Jagr, let alone "clearly."
i said performances, im with you.
It ties into the longevity aspect.
To put it more clearly -

Lafleur’s peak period is higher as he was better in the playoffs during that time.
 

Czech Your Math

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Also for a player who is head and shoulders in per game scoring in the playoffs post lockout in a very large sample maybe the description of Crosby laying an egg isn't historically a correct way to describe him against other contenders for the 5th spot.

Crosby clearly stands out as the best player player post lockout given the regular season, playoff and overall metrics and context and it's not even really close even with the injuries.

NHL.com Stats

NHL.com Stats

I agree that Crosby has been the best post-lockout, although I wouldn't say "it's not even really close."

I didn't say Crosby laid an egg overall as a playoff performer, rather I said that he seemed to do that in a lot of individual series. I also said he seemed to noticeably struggle (more than some others) against the stronger defensive playoff teams. For example, Forsberg & Jagr didn't have many bad playoff series during their primes, and Jagr & Sakic tended to perform better than most against stronger defensive teams in the playoffs.

I stopped at 2008 being a "pretty good playoff" run while commending Jagr that year.

Crosby's 2008 is a better playoff run than anything Jags ever did in the playoffs.

I said he had a "good" playoff run. I'm talking about his individual performance, while understanding the context and the strength of his competition. Let's look at Crosby's 2008 playoffs:

vs. OTT 4-2-6-8 (+2) It looks like a "great" performance, but we're talking about a sweep of an Ottawa team that was (3-way tie for) last in points and last in GA among the Eastern playoff teams, and had changed coaches late in the season. This is the typical performance that boosts Crosby's playoff numbers: Utter domination of a team that (relative to other playoff teams) is mediocre/weak defensively.

vs. NYR 5-0-6-6 (even) It was a solid performance, even without a single goal, but nothing special. The Rangers weren't great defensively, although their stats were very good. Mainly, they played low event hockey while relying on Lundqvist the possession game of Jagr. I mentioned Jagr being better in the series than either Crosby or Malkin, because I watched that series particularly closely and the contrast was stark. I think it sort of encapsulates the playoff comparison between the two: Jagr was mostly on teams that relied on him to be a superman, and anything less than that usually resulted in a loss. Crosby simply had to be solid most of the time in order to advance.

vs. PHI 5-2-5-7 (+4) It was a very good performance, against a weaker defensive team. Again, this is typical.

vs. DET 6-2-4-6 (+1) This was a solid performance, that was actually good to very good given that Detroit was a powerhouse (incl. defensively) that year.

I'm judging his performance mainly in context of the defensive quality of the team, and also to some degree against what the expectations of a player of his caliber.

vs. OTT/PHI (two defensive cupcakes): 9-4-11-15 (+6) This is very good performance, but these teams were below average defensively, and horrible for playoff teams.
vs. NYR/DET (two strong defensive teams): 11-2-10-12 (+1) What appears to be a decent/solid performance is enhanced by strength of defensive opposition, particularly Detroit.

There's nothing really "wrong" with or "bad" about Crosby's playoffs in 2008. I said before it was "good," and upon further review I stick by that. I'm not going to pretend it was an "awesome" performance, just because his team made SC Finals. You said Crosby's 2008 was better than anything Jagr did in the playoffs, but I don't see how it was actually better than Jagr's 2008 playoffs (at age 36), except for team success:

Jagr 2008 playoffs

vs. NJD 5-2-6-8 (+3) This is a very good performance, all the more so because NJ was very strong defensively that year.
vs. PIT 5-3-4-7 (even) Another very good performance, against a good (playoff standard) to very good (regular season standard) defensive team.

I find it odd that many people bend over backwards to try to project things that they claim Crosby would have or could have done in the regular season, but didn't do to injury... things that he had many other full seasons during his peak/prime years, before and after his injuries, to prove... yet never did once in a full season... not even once. Yet when it comes to the playoffs, when the schedules are grossly imbalanced (both in terms of strength of opposition and in terms of number of games played, which is generally going to correlate to strength of one's own team relative to that of opposition)... they don't look at individual performance in individual series and strength of defensive/overall opposition in each... they just start counting trophies (team/individual) and look at total points in a single playoff season as if that proves which players were best during that playoff season. I guess McDavid is a poor playoff player, since he's only won one playoff round in 5 years.
 
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Staniowski

Registered User
Jan 13, 2018
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I can understand that viewpoint, as Lafleur had such a strong peak and was such a key piece of that dynasty. Since I look mainly at prime playoff performance by series and as a whole, rather than single playoff runs, I don't give him the same advantage in that area that most seem to do.



That's where I seem to disagree with most people. Lafleur had more great single playoff runs obviously, but I don't think he was a better playoff performer than Jagr, let alone "clearly."
There is no doubt that Jagr was a better hockey player than Lafleur.

Lafleur's a bit over-rated.
 
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Czech Your Math

I am lizard king
Jan 25, 2006
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i said performances, im with you.
It ties into the longevity aspect.
To put it more clearly -

Lafleur’s peak period is higher as he was better in the playoffs during that time.

I don't think Lafleur was actually better at his peak in the playoffs, although I know I'm practically on an island on this one. I can see that viewpoint, mainly because Lafleur was THE offensive lynchpin on a dynasty. So it's a matter of knowing that Lafleur could THE dominant offensive star on a dynasty, whereas there is uncertainty as to whether Jagr could. There is also uncertainty as to whether Lafleur could have carried a weak defense and rotating goalies to the playoffs each and every year, even big upsets (#2 & #1 seed) a couple years in a row... but I certainly understand why that is held is less esteem as what Lafleur did, although it was pretty important to a near-bankrupt team that may have been on the verge of moving to Kansas City without the extra playoff revenue each year. When looking at individual performance of each player in their playoff primes, in the context of the strength of ones team and that of the opposition (particularly defensively), I don't see an edge for Lafleur.

The main arguments for Jagr being to carry the load offensively on a powerhouse team:

* He had it all as far as the eye test: size, strength, reach, speed, skill, shot, etc.
* His peak/prime offensive production is only eclipsed by Gretzky, Lemieux, and Howe (one can make arguments for his peak being at/above Howe based on era, and below Espo if you ignore era/Orr).
* His performance during his playoff prime ('92-'08) is actually excellent on a per-game basis, but outside of '92, '93 and perhaps '96 (the first two of which were fringe years of his playoff prime) his team was never of Cup-contending quality.
* His playoff performance is only strengthened by each study I've done or seen others do: How he performed against strong defensive teams compared to weak ones, consistency in having few bad series (he had very few, esp. outside of two in '01 & '06 where he was severely injured), his plus-minus (esp. compared to that of the team w/o him on ice), and clutch play (as was clearly shown by someone else's recent study on the main forum of goals/points that were game-tying or go ahead goals in 3rd period or OT ).
* When Mario was injured in '92 playoffs, it was he (along with Francis) that carried the load offensively against strong overall/defensive teams and scored several key goals, many in spectacular fashion.

I previously replied to someone that claimed Jagr never had a playoff like Crosby's 2008 playoffs, and did so with Jagr's own 2008 playoffs at age 36. Jagr turned 20 just a couple months prior to the '92 playoffs (Crosby was 20, going on 21 in the 2008 playoffs), so let's look at how he did with Mario out and just after Mario returned:

vs. NYR (no Lemieux... #1 seed Rangers with #4 defense in NHL have momentum after injuring Lemieux and winning game 2)
Game 3 : 2 assists... as Pens go down 2-1 in series
Game 4: 1 assist... a primary assist to tie the game with < 9 min. left, which Pens won in OT
Game 5: 2 goals... one a penalty shot, the other the GWG with < 6 min. left in 3-2 win
Game 6: 1 goal... to put the Pens ahead for good past the game's midway point in series-clincher

vs. BOS (consistently good, experience Bruins team w/ Bourque)
Game 1: 1 goal... in OT
Game 2: 1 goal, 2 assists... one assist tied game, the goal gave Pens lead for good
Game 3: 3 assists
Game 4: 1 goal... first goal of game, Pens never gave up lead

vs. CHI (had won 11 in a row leading up to SCF, #2 defense in NHL)
Game 1: 1 goal... skates through most of team with everyone in the same zone for "the greatest goal I ever saw" according to Lemieux, ties game with < 5 min left, Pens win in final seconds

During that stretch, Jagr was 9-7-8-15 (+6)... against the #1 seed & #4 defense with Messier... Bourque's Bruins... and the #2 defensive team that had won 11 straight playoff games. These weren't garbage goals or meaningless points. These were often spectacular goals... often goals few other players were capable of scoring... at crucial times... in games and series where the momentum could swing at any time... mostly against tough defenses and quality teams with legendary players. Yeah, I think that's more impressive than what Crosby did in 2008 or at any time in his playoff career, frankly.

Somehow we should believe that a player that... :

* was capable of that sort of leading performance, shortly after turning 20 and in his second year after coming to America
* had consistently great numbers in the playoffs (incl. plus-minus data) throughout his playoff peak/prime
* ended his playoff prime (before going to Russia) by, at age 35, enabling Nylander to have the highest PPG in playoffs in 2007 then himself having the highest playoff PPG in 2008 at age 36...

would be incapable of leading a great team to success? Furthermore, we should believe he wasn't even a very good playoff player? To me, that's what listening to a false narrative created by others and/or creating one's own false narrative, along with putting extremely high value on the opinions of fellow fans, sportwriters, etc. can do. It can lead you to ignore the objective evidence that's right in front of you.
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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I think part of the "problem" with the argument as who is the 5th best and the chronological makeup of the top 10 is a glass ceiling with top 5 or top 10 scoring and trophy counting (largely SC's as regular season "dynasties" are largely ignored) not being adequately weighted between a 6 team league and then a much lager one.

Never mind the salary cap and other issues like the expansion bump in the late 60's were many stars prolonged their careers in a larger league with no infusion of new talent streams.

The nature of the NHL has changed drastically and often in these comparisons posters act like it's the same conditions for a player in 1950 than 2015 for some weird reason.

The ironic thing is, those of us who tend to view the O6 era in a more favourable light also seem to be the least likely to lean heavily on trophy and top 10 counting as means of making our case.

If anything, it's the pro-modern player croud that treats these awards and precise scoring placements as sacred cows, but accordingly need a good explanation for why certain modern guys have fewer of them than certain oldtimers.
 

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