5th Greatest all time

[Voight]

For a season here and there, sure. You think anybody's giving an 8 year old financial assistance to play hockey year round till he's 15?

IIRC Anthony and maybe even Chris Stewart had something like that happen to them. I cant remember for how long, but I believe both of them had either teammates families or family friends help pay for their hockey equipment/registration most years. Wayne Simmonds I believe ended up moving in with a teammates family and they paid for everything because his parents couldn't afford it.

Those are just 3 that I remember off the top of my head (I'm not sure why )

 

[VanIslander]

This 25-page thread of debate between numerous candidates for 5th place has shown clearly that...

There is indeed a big gap (a clear tier) between The Top 4 and every other elite all-time great.

 

[GuineaPig]

This 25-page thread of debate between numerous candidates for 5th place has shown clearly that...

There is indeed a big gap (a clear tier) between The Top 4 and every other elite all-time great.

There is also a small enough gap between #5 and #6 as to make it probably impossible to arrive at a consensus pick for #5.

 

[tinyzombies]

Not so sure about Lafleur being behind Jagr. Lafleur put up point-per-game numbers that were elite post-dynasty as well when the team was a shadow of its former self and he lost his centerman (Lemaire) and best defensive dman (Savard).

 

[K Fleur]

“Well rested” is an interesting way to describe a player returning from a poorly diagnosed fractured neck vertebrae.

Well interesting isn’t really the correct word.

 

[Dingo]

Not so sure about Lafleur being behind Jagr. Lafleur put up point-per-game numbers that were elite post-dynasty as well when the team was a shadow of its former self and he lost his centerman (Lemaire) and best defensive dman (Savard).

Jagr did very well without Francis and Lemieux, too. And the Pens were a shambles.

They are quite similar in some ways - highly touted prospects who were lost in team depth and took awhile to get going, followed by offensive peaks that are really only behind 66, 99 and 9 - and are very different in others - Lafleur is quite clearly better in playoff performances and team victories, and Jagr’s longevity was exceptional, while Guy fell off a cliff.

 

[ted2019]

Jagr did very well without Francis and Lemieux, too. And the Pens were a shambles.

They are quite similar in some ways - highly touted prospects who were lost in team depth and took awhile to get going, followed by offensive peaks that are really only behind 66, 99 and 9 - and are very different in others - Lafleur is quite clearly better in playoff performances and team victories, and Jagr’s longevity was exceptional, while Guy fell off a cliff.

In regards of longevity and players from the 50's-80's, do posters on here take into account the strides exercise and fitness have evolved since the days of Lafleur and company? Jagr was a front runner in terms of staying in game shape all year round and with some of the routines he used when it wasn't "trendy" yet. Lafleur and generations of players before hand, used training camp as the means to get into shape, where now a days, players stay in shape 12 months out of the year.

 

[Dingo]

In regards of longevity and players from the 50's-80's, do posters on here take into account the strides exercise and fitness have evolved since the days of Lafleur and company? Jagr was a front runner in terms of staying in game shape all year round and with some of the routines he used when it wasn't "trendy" yet. Lafleur and generations of players before hand, used training camp as the means to get into shape, where now a days, players stay in shape 12 months out of the year.

i expect players to age better now.
As we compare points and skills and speed inter generationally with regards to skates and training and the make up and parity of the league as it changes, i would strongly say that Jagr’s longevity compares well to his contemporaries, and that Lafleur looks a little better here, as many 70s players fell off hard in the 80s (i believe the game changed and began, with gretzky, to become a hybrid of European and Canadian hockey). Dionne aged much better than Guy, for sure, but guys like Clarke and Perreault petered out, too. Selanne aged as well as Jagr, but had more blip shit seasons. Jagr was strong for a long time, even his bad seasons were pretty good compared to the league. Oh, Sakic aged well, too, save for that lawnmower.

 

[Dingo]

I also think you guys had it more right when you broke it down by position.
The roles are so different. In regards to the Crosby Ovechkin thing, well, Crosby does more, as does every good center. Its hard not to say he is ‘better’ But the game is a team game, and teams arent built by two captains standing at center picking the most athletic kids one after another. If I already had Fedorov and Forsberg, or any two all around centers, Id want Ovechkin more than Crosby. And you can flip that scenario very easily.
Prime Ovechkin is everything i want from a winger - hard charging, hard hitting, hardshooting, tremendously skilled for his size and unbreakable. He is perfect. But he still doesnt do much of what Crosby does....

 

[tarheelhockey]

In regards of longevity and players from the 50's-80's, do posters on here take into account the strides exercise and fitness have evolved since the days of Lafleur and company? Jagr was a front runner in terms of staying in game shape all year round and with some of the routines he used when it wasn't "trendy" yet. Lafleur and generations of players before hand, used training camp as the means to get into shape, where now a days, players stay in shape 12 months out of the year.

IMO that card tends to get overplayed. Not to say the details of nutrition and offseason training haven't improved. But a few high-profile examples like Lafleur and Lemieux, guys who had so much talent that it created a margin of error for conditioning, have created a mythology about how out-of-shape players used to get during the offseason. In general players knew better than to show up to training camp in poor conditioning.

 

[BenchBrawl]

IMO that card tends to get overplayed. Not to say the details of nutrition and offseason training haven't improved. But a few high-profile examples like Lafleur and Lemieux, guys who had so much talent that it created a margin of error for conditioning, have created a mythology about how out-of-shape players used to get during the offseason. In general players knew better than to show up to training camp in poor conditioning.

And Lafleur was not in poor conditioning. His resting heartbeat was at 40 bpm and he had the fastest recovery after effort the doctor had ever seen. How many current NHLers have that? My guess is not even 5%.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And Lafleur was not in poor conditioning. His resting heartbeat was at 40 bpm and he had the fastest recovery after effort the doctor had ever seen. How many current NHLers have that? My guess is not even 5%.

Lafleur screwed himself out of his peak level of play by getting into a car accident while driving drunk. How that affects his legacy as a hockey player is up for debate, but it's a different animal from Phil Esposito or Mario Lemieux's poor conditioning.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

In regards of longevity and players from the 50's-80's, do posters on here take into account the strides exercise and fitness have evolved since the days of Lafleur and company? Jagr was a front runner in terms of staying in game shape all year round and with some of the routines he used when it wasn't "trendy" yet. Lafleur and generations of players before hand, used training camp as the means to get into shape, where now a days, players stay in shape 12 months out of the year.

People definitely should evaluate player longevity within the context of their eras.

I did a quick comparison of player ages during their final elite season (identified by taking the last time a player received any year-end AST votes). Of 35 Hall of Famers born between 1948 and 1960, here are the only ones who had their final season with AST votes at age 34 or older:

Brad Park, 35
Larry Robinson, 36
Denis Potvin, 34
Mark Howe, 36
Joe Mullen, 34
Ray Bourque, 40

That's only six players, including four of the top 11 defencemen of all-time according to HOH. Twenty-one of the 35 in this group received their last AST votes at age 31 or younger.

From 1961 to 1970, 31 HoFers were born. Here's the list of everyone who did not have their final season with AST votes at age 34 or older:

Denis Savard, 26
Dale Hawerchuk, 24
Pat LaFontaine, 27
Cam Neely, 28
Joe Nieuwendyk, 31

(End of list)

Not only that, but the majority of the players in this group (17 out of 31) had their last season with AST votes at age 37 or older, which is ahead of everybody on the list above except for Bourque (and even that isn't too surprising given that Bourque's date of birth is December 28, 1960). For whatever reason, elite longevity improved massively for players born in 1961 or later. I don't know how much was related to conditioning per se, but these patterns are obviously far too universal to point the blame at any individual players in particular. I think if you aren't taking that into account you are going to end up underrating players born in the 1950s (e.g. Lafleur, Potvin, Makarov and Fetisov).

 

[K Fleur]

i expect players to age better now.
As we compare points and skills and speed inter generationally with regards to skates and training and the make up and parity of the league as it changes, i would strongly say that Jagr’s longevity compares well to his contemporaries, and that Lafleur looks a little better here, as many 70s players fell off hard in the 80s (i believe the game changed and began, with gretzky, to become a hybrid of European and Canadian hockey). Dionne aged much better than Guy, for sure, but guys like Clarke and Perreault petered out, too. Selanne aged as well as Jagr, but had more blip shit seasons. Jagr was strong for a long time, even his bad seasons were pretty good compared to the league. Oh, Sakic aged well, too, save for that lawnmower.

*snowblower

Among the strangest injuries I’ve read about in this sport.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Lafleur screwed himself out of his peak level of play by getting into a car accident while driving drunk. How that affects his legacy as a hockey player is up for debate, but it's a different animal from Phil Esposito or Mario Lemieux's poor conditioning.

The thing I always see brought up is "players used to smoke all the time" based almost entirely on Lafleur being a well known smoker.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The thing I always see brought up is "players used to smoke all the time" based almost entirely on Lafleur being a well known smoker.

So was Sergei Zubov (just for one example off the top of my head)

Players no longer smoking seems to be mainly correlated with it no longer being widely accepted in society, which has really only been within the last 10-15 years.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So was Sergei Zubov (just for one example off the top of my head)

Players no longer smoking seems to be mainly correlated with it no longer being widely accepted in society, which has really only been within the last 10-15 years.

And on the other side of the coin, plenty of players in prior generations were non-smokers. It's not nearly as simple as "everyone used to smoke and now they don't", but that's become a popular narrative.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

So was Sergei Zubov (just for one example off the top of my head)

Players no longer smoking seems to be mainly correlated with it no longer being widely accepted in society, which has really only been within the last 10-15 years.

your timeline is right, but i'm more inclined to think it's because the money got so big that you'd be insane to give away that competitive advantage. like, how much did sergei zubov make in the mid-90s? i'm guessing something in the ballpark of $700 grand? what would a zubov with better stamina make? $900k? that's obviously not an insignificant amount of money but it's also not $3+ million a year like that difference might be today.

in 2020, even a guy who somehow made it to the highest level while being a regular smoker would just pay for quitting boot camp in the offseason, if not by choice then his agent and the team would make him.

 

[K Fleur]

Personally I think it is “easier” to quit smoking in NA now that it is a way more frowned upon vice. In my early to mid 20’s I peaked as an about a 1-2 pack a week smoker. In my later 20’s I looked around and realized what a lonely habit this was becoming. Quit for good(hopefully) for 2+ years now.

 

[Theokritos]

like, how much did sergei zubov make in the mid-90s? i'm guessing something in the ballpark of $700 grand?

He was earning $1,6 million in 1995-96. Source: hockeyzoneplus

 

[seventieslord]

And Lafleur was not in poor conditioning. His resting heartbeat was at 40 bpm and he had the fastest recovery after effort the doctor had ever seen. How many current NHLers have that? My guess is not even 5%.

Now that I pay more attention to fitness myself and understand RHR and how it tracks general health, I'm stunned by that number. 40..... Wow. I simply can't imagine.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He was earning $1,6 million in 1995-96. Source: hockeyzoneplus

After growing up in the Perestroika Soviet Union.

Zubov in the mid 90s was richer than any ordinary Soviet had a right to dream of becoming. He didn’t smoke because he would be fine with losing all that, he smoked because he was a world class athlete in spite of it.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Now that I pay more attention to fitness myself and understand RHR and how it tracks general health, I'm stunned by that number. 40..... Wow. I simply can't imagine.

I wonder if such a slow heartbeat changes your raw spatial and temporal perceptions. Like you see the game slower, you have an extra "temporal space" to make a move when a player is pressuring you or something of that nature.

I had some cat allergies which gave me moderate shortness of breath, and I realized the potential lenght of my chains of thought was shorter when doing mathematics in that state compared to when I could breathe deeply. Maybe I'm imagining things but it's an intriguing thought.

 

[tinyzombies]

I thought Lafleur's career went downhill after he hurt his knee in 1980. After that he had a long series of injuries- pretty crazy actually if you look at his injury record. It was at the end of that long string of injuries that he finally fell off in 1982-83. He had injury shortened seasons the two previous seasons, but his per game numbers were still elite in 80-81 and very good in 81-82.

It's a shame he hurt his knee in 80 because an Islanders-Habs semis would have been tremendous, even with the Habs in a reduced state. There's a great peek at what could have been on Youtube near the end of the 79-80 season when the two teams clashed at the Forum:



Significant Injuries

Missed part of 1974-75 season with broken left index finger, an injury suffered when he was slashed by Darryl Sitler during Montreal's Feb. 12, 1975, game at Toronto. He did not return until Montreal's March 7, 1975, game vs. Washington. ... Missed part of 1979-80 regular season with strained ligament in knee, an injury suffered during Montreal's Feb. 19, 1980, game at Washington. He did not return until Montreal's March 6, 1980, game vs. Edmonton. ... Missed remainder of 1980 playoffs with bruised left knee, an injury suffered when he was kneed by Pat Boutette in Montreal's April 11, 1980, playoff game at Hartford. ... Missed start of 1980-81 season with pulled right hamstring, an injury suffered during Montreal's practice on Oct. 8, 1980. He did not make his 1980-81 season debut until Montreal's Oct. 18, 1980, game vs. Vancouver. ... Missed part of 1980-81 season with tonsillitis, diagnosed on Nov. 20, 1980. He did not return until Montreal's Nov. 29, 1980, game vs. Minnesota. ... Missed part of 1980-81 season with scratched right eyeball, suffered when he was caught by Charlie Simmer's errant high stick during Montreal's Dec. 30, 1980, game vs. Los Angeles. He did not return to action until Montreal's Jan. 10, 1981, game vs. Quebec. ... Missed part of 1980-81 season with bruised right ankle, an injury suffered when he blocked a shot by Dave Pichette during Montreal's Jan. 10, 1981, game vs. Quebec. He did not return until Montreal's Jan. 24, 1981, game vs. Philadelphia. ... Missed part of 1980-81 season with charley horse, an injury suffered when he was kneed by Denis Potvin during Montreal's March 17, 1981, game at N.Y. Islanders. While he was out with the injury, he suffered facial injuries in a March 24, 1981, car accident. He did not return until Montreal's April 3, 1981, game vs. Hartford. ... Missed part of Montreal's 1981 training camp with sprained back, an injury suffered during the 1981 Canada Cup. ... Missed part of 1981-82 season with eye injury, suffered when he was struck by Mark Hardy's errant stick during Montreal's Nov. 10, 1981, game at Los Angeles. He did not return until Montreal's Nov. 19, 1981, game vs. Quebec. ... Missed part of 1981-82 season with bruised bone in left foot, an injury suffered when he was hit by teammate Gaston Gingras' shot during Montreal's March 11, 1982, game vs. Chicago. He did not return until Montreal's April 3, 1982, game vs. Buffalo. ... Missed one game of 1982-83 season with injured right eye, suffered when he was facewashed by Dale Hunter's glove during Montreal's Oct. 11, 1982, game at Quebec. ... Missed part of 1982-83 season with broken right pinky toe, an injury suffered when he collided with Steve Payne during Montreal's Nov. 9, 1982, game at Minnesota. He did not return until Montreal's Dec. 4, 1982, game vs. Boston. ... Missed part of 1988-89 season with broken bone on the outside of his left foot, an injury suffered when he was hit by a shot during N.Y. Rangers' Dec. 10, 1988, game at Boston. The injury sidelined him for the Rangers' Dec. 17, 1988, game at Montreal -- which would have been his first homecoming -- and he did not return until the Rangers' Jan. 7, 1989, game at N.Y. Islanders. ... Missed part of 1989-90 season with bruised left ankle, an injury suffered when he was hit by a shot from teammate Iiro Jarvi during Quebec's Nov. 14, 1989, game vs. Winnipeg. He did not return until Quebec's Dec. 23, 1989, game vs. Buffalo. ... Missed part of 1989-90 season with broken left cheekbone, an injury suffered when he was checked from behind into the boards by Dean Kennedy in Quebec's Jan. 30, 1990, game vs. Buffalo. Lafleur's face slammed right into the glass on the play, and Quebec coach Michel Bergeron initially said the injury might be career-ending. Lafleur did not return untli Quebec's March 24, 1990, game vs. Toronto.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He was earning $1,6 million in 1995-96. Source: hockeyzoneplus

ah thx. nice to know there’s a place with that info.

still, he made $1.6m. brian leetch, who was probably better than the best player zubov could possibly ever be, made $2.6m. rob blake was making $2.3m. those figures are bonkers money to most of us, but i do feel like the incentive to be the best zubov wasn’t that much considering he was already pretty darn good.

whereas, the difference between a yandle and a subban is $4 to 5 million.