5th Greatest all time

[crobro]

It’s quite obvious who the top 4 are but number 5 seems to Flux

Bobby Hull
Beliveau
Richard
Crosby
Jagr

These are 5 that Vie for the 5 spot

any other suggestions?

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

Harvey
Hasek

 

[alko]

Never ending discussion. There is sooo many great players, that could deserve Nr. 5 spot... IMO, when Ovie will retire, he will push his name ahead of Gordie Howe in the NHL Mount Rushmore.

Then we will need some other symbol, that will reflect the number 5.

 

[ted2019]

Never ending discussion. There is sooo many great players, that could deserve Nr. 5 spot... IMO, when Ovie will retire, he will push his name ahead of Gordie Howe in the NHL Mount Rushmore.

Then we will need some other symbol, that will reflect the number 5.

Ovechkin will never pass Gordie.

 

[ozzie]

I've always thought Bobby Hull was a good claim to number 5. He is somewhat hurt by jumping to the WHA, unless you can appreciate his greatness in both leagues.

 

[The Panther]

I think it's one of:
Morenz
Beliveau
Hull
Hasek
Jagr

I know a case can be made for Harvey, Bourque, and Lidstrom, but I'm wary of ranking a steady D-man as high as the three or four most elite forwards ever, because I feel it's not quite as hard to be a consistently great D-man as it is to be a consistently great forward. Which isn't to say those three couldn't be in the top-10 or 15...

 

[quoipourquoi]

The 1st place vote in Round 2, Vote 2 of the top-100 project was a de facto 5th place vote as Gretzky, Howe, Orr, and Hull had already made the list in Vote 1.

Bobby Hull - 12 votes
Jean Beliveau - 7 votes
Patrick Roy - 6 votes
Doug Harvey - 2 votes
Dominik Hasek - 1 vote
Howie Morenz - 1 vote
Maurice Richard - 1 vote
Eddie Shore - 0 votes
Ray Bourque - 0 votes
Sidney Crosby - 0 votes

Overall, 17/30 ballots and 20/30 ballots had Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau respectively as top-2 players of that group of the usual suspects, meaning a majority thought each was 5th or 6th best of all-time. No one else had majority support: Roy took 9/30, Harvey took 6/30, Richard took 4/30).

So while there is no consensus answer, Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau seem to be the more popular ones on HOH.

 

[Moose Head]

When Jagr and Hull were at their best they never carried their team to a championship, therefore they are disqualified from this discussion IMO.

 

[VanIslander]

Morenz may have been no greater than Shore.

Heck, a case can be made (based on his contemporaries' opinions) that Nighbor was better.

 

[quoipourquoi]

When Jagr and Hull were at their best they never carried their team to a championship, therefore they are disqualified from this discussion IMO.

Chicago won the 1961 Stanley Cup in a season sandwiched between two Bobby Hull Art Ross Trophies. So I suppose it depends on how we use the word “carried” which may be somewhat loaded.

As for Jagr, I think it’s harder to win from underneath in a 4-round playoff. As the 8th seed in 1999, it’s not enough to knock off the New Jersey Devils to get into the Finals (which is how it worked prior to 1967); the Penguins would have to do that same magic trick two more times just to get there.

 

[Moose Head]

Chicago won the 1961 Stanley Cup in a season sandwiched between two Bobby Hull Art Ross Trophies. So I suppose it depends on how we use the word “carried” which may be somewhat loaded.

As for Jagr, I think it’s harder to win from underneath in a 4-round playoff. As the 8th seed in 1999, it’s not enough to knock off the New Jersey Devils to get into the Finals (which is how it worked prior to 1967); the Penguins would have to do that same magic trick two more times just to get there.

okay, I was hard on Hull, but I stand by my stance on Jagr. Love the guy, but he has no business in a discussion for 5th best. Top 10-15, sure. The greatest win cups when they are at their greatest. Jagr never won a thing unless his team was carried by Mario.

 

[Sentinel]

To me, it's unquestionably Hasek. But I am in the minority.

I find Beliveau and especially Richard overrated, as I pointed in the "Makarov vs. Beliveau" thread. Both have comparatively modest trophy cases. Hull was, pretty much, already overtaken by Ovechkin.

 

[JackSlater]

I like Hasek there but there are several players who can go go in that spot.

 

[The Panther]

okay, I was hard on Hull, but I stand by my stance on Jagr. Love the guy, but he has no business in a discussion for 5th best. Top 10-15, sure. The greatest win cups when they are at their greatest. Jagr never won a thing unless his team was carried by Mario.

I don't understand that argument. What did Mario win when he wasn't surrounded by a clutch of stars? Oh yeah, his team missed the playoffs five times in six years when it was quite easy to make the playoffs.

So, actually, when Jagr was "carrying" the team, his team was actually doing far, far better than when Mario was.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

To me, it's unquestionably Hasek. But I am in the minority.

I find Beliveau and especially Richard overrated, as I pointed in the "Makarov vs. Beliveau" thread. Both have competitively modest trophy cases. Hull was, pretty much, already overtaken by Ovechkin.

Ovechkin may well be the greatest goal score ever, but he still isn't a better player than Bobby Hull was.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Hasek

Hasek dominated his peers and had a peak on par with Bobby Orr

2x Hart
1,1,2,3,3 Hart finishes
2x Pearson
6x Vezina
6x AS-1
3x Jennings
2x Cup
6x led in save %

He also dominated the international stage, such as allowing 2 goals in 3 games in the medal round in 98 against the US, Canada, Russia to win gold

 

[Albatros]

Hasek, although he might be higher than 5th.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Hasek, although he might be higher than 5th.

You might be higher than all of us.

 

[Thenameless]

The dynamics of this discussion are so interesting. Apart from the usual suspects of Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau, we have people making half-decent cases for other players.

Of particular interest to me is Hasek.

Full disclosure: As a Habs fan, I think Hasek is better than Roy.

In most of the all-time lists, consensus has Patrick Roy ahead of Hasek. Yet, when talking about who warrants the fifth spot after Mt. Rushmore, it's always Hasek that gets mentioned. It's so hard to put a value on goalies versus skaters. I generally go with the best skater available, but Hasek really was a game changer during his prime.

 

[DickSmehlik]

Ditto for Hasek.

Though others on the list have an argument for better careers, his run from '94 - '01 was stronger than any stretch of those who are also being considered.

 

[tarheelhockey]

This is one of those arguments, like who's the #2 defenseman, where are a bunch of strong candidates and legitimate angles that don't settle cleanly on a "right" answer.

The ones I give the most credence:

Bobby Hull - Simply, he was the biggest star and most dominant offensive force after the Big 4. A true generational player and face of the league during the 60s.

Dominik Hasek or Patrick Roy - Goalies seem to get the short end of these rankings, partly because their legacy is so tightly tied to their team results. Ranking the #1 goalie as the #5 overall player simply makes sense.

Howie Morenz or Eddie Shore - "Best player in the first half-century" is sound logic, and these are the two contenders for that title.

I'm not as sold on Beliveau or Crosby, though as I said in another thread I could see Crosby making a strong case if his career finish continues to add feathers in his cap. Can't really predict where he'll finish until we see it.

To me, Jagr and Richard are in the conversation for top-10 but not top-5. I don't think Ovechkin has a realistic shot at building a case for #5, for the same reasons I don't have Jagr or Richard there. Nor do I see Bourque or Harvey being quite at this level.

 

[Perennial]

Who peaked higher... Hasek or Howe?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Who peaked higher... Hasek or Howe?

Hasek peaked higher than Mark Howe.

But not higher than Gordie.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Who peaked higher... Hasek or Howe?

Howe, comfortably.

From 1951 to 1958:

4x Hart
5x Ross
4x Rocket
6x AS-1
3x Cup

1,1,1,1,2,2,2,5 in goals
1,1,1,1,1,2,4,5 in points

Smythe didn't exist but he presumably would've had at least 2 with 2x leading the playoffs in points (8 in 7, and 20 I'm 11)

 

[GMR]

When Jagr and Hull were at their best they never carried their team to a championship, therefore they are disqualified from this discussion IMO.

How many players have "carried" their team to a Cup?

I can't think of any actually.