Prospect Info: 58th Joni Ikonen

[Whitesnake]

I really think he would have made it without his illness. I think he was better than Ghetto and Hudon. And now that the game has opened up more (no hooking to hands, most clean hits are now illegal, etc...), I think his talent would have come out.

But it seems his heart condition has prevented his cardiovascular system from allowing him to be in good enough shape.

Absolutely no idea to know that. Only people would say that are the ones who want to excuse Timmins for whatever. I can dissect every prospect for every team and tell you how that kid would have made it. Somehow, seems that Timmins works with a rule of his own.

 

[26Mats]

Absolutely no idea to know that. Only people would say that are the ones who want to excuse Timmins for whatever. I can dissect every prospect for every team and tell you how that kid would have made it. Somehow, seems that Timmins works with a rule of his own.

Has nothing to do with Timmins and everything to do with Reway.

Definitely no way to tell for sure. I just think Reway was a great player (better than Hudon and Ghetto) and would have been even better with the new rules.

Every team loses players due to career threatening injuries. I haven't done an analysis of whether Timmins has lost more or less, and won't take the time to do so. My comment was just about Reway.

 

[bleuetbio]

Ikonen has a great upside. Unfortunaly, every scenarios including him lead to the worst case since his draft. That doesnt mean that he's bad, that just means that we possibly waste a year. Im still realy thrilled about him. Talent speaks for himself and he has a ton of.

 

[Whitesnake]

Has nothing to do with Timmins and everything to do with Reway.

Definitely no way to tell for sure. I just think Reway was a great player (better than Hudon and Ghetto) and would have been even better with the new rules.

Every team loses players due to career threatening injuries. I haven't done an analysis of whether Timmins has lost more or less, and won't take the time to do so. My comment was just about Reway.

Reway had more pure talent. But in no way did he had the rest of the game that Hudon does. And I wasn't a fan of Hudon at all. Actually surprised to see him in the NHL. But not being a key role in the NHL does not surprise me one bit. Yet...he had WAY more game than Reway. If Scherbak can't make it, it's not that far fetched to think that Reway couldn't either. Whole lot of tools with no toolbox. And a questionable heart. Yet again, I had NOTHING against that pick when it happened. But to say that he would have made it.....it's just empty talk really.

I guess we are about to hear how Crisp would have made it without the concussions?

 

[26Mats]

Reway had more pure talent. But in no way did he had the rest of the game that Hudon does. And I wasn't a fan of Hudon at all. Actually surprised to see him in the NHL. But not being a key role in the NHL does not surprise me one bit. Yet...he had WAY more game than Reway. If Scherbak can't make it, it's not that far fetched to think that Reway couldn't either. Whole lot of tools with no toolbox. And a questionable heart. Yet again, I had NOTHING against that pick when it happened. But to say that he would have made it.....it's just empty talk really.

I guess we are about to hear how Crisp would have made it without the concussions?

We're all entitled to make projections. I didn't say Reway would have made it. I said I think he would have made it.

That's a big difference in statements. Be careful to make sure you really understand what you're trying to comment on.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I was also thinking similarily but had more of a hint of not going to make it.

Very hard to determine cause he missed time due to injury. Lets see how he finishes the year and starts next season. I think lack of strength is also an issue. We will see how committed he is at improving and if he can stay healthy

 

[A55P2]

Reway was extremely talented. He came in at 18 and people we're saying that he was "floating" on the ice, but in an good effortless way. He was also deadly on the PP. I really don't think Ikonen has the same sets of tools, but we'll see.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Reway was extremely talented. He came in at 18 and people we're saying that he was "floating" on the ice, but in an good effortless way. He was also deadly on the PP. I really don't think Ikonen has the same sets of tools, but we'll see.

In open space, Reway was awesome! He is the one prospect that I feel for due to his health issues. He never got stronger which was a problem once he turned pro. I also don't think Ikonen has the same set of tools.

Ikonen vs Ylonen or Lehkonen or Scherbak or Hudon?

 

[Whitesnake]

We're all entitled to make projections. I didn't say Reway would have made it. I said I think he would have made it.

That's a big difference in statements. Be careful to make sure you really understand what you're trying to comment on.

lol...Until proven otherwise, every statement we make here, whether we write I think or not, is what we think. 'Cause even if you would said I'm sure....we all know that you are not a wizard. So my problem with your statement is not that you know...or that you think or that whatever....but the whole idea that you could even think....when you have NOTHING to base yourself on. You cannot base yourself on talent in juniors 'cause most kids that have talent won't succeed in higher leagues. He didn'T even crush the Q. And there are not enough stats in higher leagues to prove any point. And people who actually have seen him play, and live on top of it all, know that there were WAYS to go as far as completing his game. EVERYBODY acknowledge the pure talent. But there is so much more than that in the game of hockey....ask Scherbak....

Add all this with the fact that he was picked in the 5th round....and what the percentage over the years says of prospects picked around that round....and to even think he would have made it is just coming out of nowwhere...And, again, that's coming from a guy who loved the pick.

Oh and just before I hear about his Czech league stats....come on....look at that league and tell me the enormous boatload of talent that were able to help a NHL team....

It is impossible to know whether he would have made it or not. Just impossible.

 

[26Mats]

lol...Until proven otherwise, every statement we make here, whether we write I think or not, is what we think. 'Cause even if you would said I'm sure....we all know that you are not a wizard. So my problem with your statement is not that you know...or that you think or that whatever....but the whole idea that you could even think....when you have NOTHING to base yourself on. You cannot base yourself on talent in juniors 'cause most kids that have talent won't succeed in higher leagues. He didn'T even crush the Q. And there are not enough stats in higher leagues to prove any point. And people who actually have seen him play, and live on top of it all, know that there were WAYS to go as far as completing his game. EVERYBODY acknowledge the pure talent. But there is so much more than that in the game of hockey....ask Scherbak....

Add all this with the fact that he was picked in the 5th round....and what the percentage over the years says of prospects picked around that round....and to even think he would have made it is just coming out of nowwhere...And, again, that's coming from a guy who loved the pick.

Oh and just before I hear about his Czech league stats....come on....look at that league and tell me the enormous boatload of talent that were able to help a NHL team....

It is impossible to know whether he would have made it or not. Just impossible.

When you make a projection you don't know or not. I'm glad you added the "or not." Just as there isn't enough evidence to know that he would have made it, there isn't enough evidence to know that he wouldn't have.

People debate all the time which players from different eras could be good in this era, who are the best players in the history of the game (i.e. comparing players across eras), etc... TSN recently had a top 100 players ever. There is no way to know for sure who ranks above who because they played in different eras and therefore there will be no conclusive evidence. Also people debate how good of a career players like Orr and Bossy would have had if they hadn't been injured - even though it's impossible to know for sure.

It's just projections where there won't be any evidence to know for sure.

Take a chill pill. If you don't enjoy debates where there's no evidence to know for sure, then don't join them.

 

[Whitesnake]

When you make a projection you don't know or not. I'm glad you added the "or not." Just as there isn't enough evidence to know that he would have made it, there isn't enough evidence to know that he wouldn't have.

People debate all the time which players from different eras could be good in this era, who are the best players in the history of the game (i.e. comparing players across eras), etc... TSN recently had a top 100 players ever. There is no way to know for sure who ranks above who because they played in different eras and therefore there will be no conclusive evidence. Also people debate how good of a career players like Orr and Bossy would have had if they hadn't been injured - even though it's impossible to know for sure.

It's just projections where there won't be any evidence to know for sure.

Take a chill pill. If you don't enjoy debates where there's no evidence to know for sure, then don't join them.

Not sure who can't deal with a debate....chill pill? Really? lol

Yep, debates exist. Mine is I don't agree with you with your ''he would have made it'' statement. Can't deal with it? Take your own advice,

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

He stinks, another Timmins gem like Casey Staum and Arvid Henrikson.

I just don't understand why Timmins can't always pick superstars with every pick. I mean what is wrong with him?

 

[1909]

I just don't understand why Timmins can't always pick superstars with every pick. I mean what is wrong with him?

We are just asking him to find better players than Tinordi, McCarron, Fischer, Sherbak, Leblanc, in a first round. That would be a good start.

 

[Habs]

We are just asking him to find better players than Tinordi, McCarron, Fischer, Sherbak, Leblanc, in a first round. That would be a good start.

So many burned first round picks.

 

[Legend123]

We are just asking him to find better players than Tinordi, McCarron, Fischer, Sherbak, Leblanc, in a first round. That would be a good start.

Hes turning it around.
Sergechev 2016, Poehling 2017, Kotkaniemi 2018. All fantastic value picks and overall players.
Let's hope he can continue that roll!

 

[26Mats]

We are just asking him to find better players than Tinordi, McCarron, Fischer, Sherbak, Leblanc, in a first round. That would be a good start.

Yeah, too bad Price, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, Juulsen, Sergachev, Poehling, and Kotkaniemi aren't better than the players you mentioned.

Can you name me 1 scout that's above 50% when it comes to late first round picks?

 

[26Mats]

Not sure who can't deal with a debate....chill pill? Really? lol

Yep, debates exist. Mine is I don't agree with you with your ''he would have made it'' statement. Can't deal with it? Take your own advice,

I have no problem with someone who doesn't think he would have made it. I think a lot of this is semantics. The best way I can state my position is I projected him to be an NHLer before the injury. With prospects we can never be 100% sure, but I was high on his potential. Sometimes I get it right: like when I projected Plekanec to be better than Higgins and Perezhogin. And sometimes I get it wrong: although it's not over for Scherbak as I always saw him as a raw talent that would take time to develop, I projected him to be an NHLer. And projections come with a certain range of outcomes and certain probabilities for each. Based on what I saw, I think it's more likely that he would have made it than not.

I would have a problem with someone who thinks you can't make projections based on junior and the world juniors.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

AS I posted some time ago,thee more konens, the better. Tiny Finland develops e great players I'not Finnish. and I saw no more of Finland that the Helsinki airport on the way to St. Petersburg. The third time I made the mistake of flyinfg on Russia's Aeroflot (a dreadful experience).

 

[Legend123]

Yeah, too bad Price, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, Juulsen, Sergachev, Poehling, and Kotkaniemi aren't better than the players you mentioned.

Can you name me 1 scout that's above 50% when it comes to late first round picks?

Beaulieu?

 

[26Mats]

Beaulieu?

You don't think he's better than the players on that list?

 

[Legend123]

You don't think he's better than the players on that list?

He is but not an impressive pick by any longshot. We could have had Klefbom, or even Kucherov.

 

[Whitesnake]

I would have a problem with someone who thinks you can't make projections based on junior and the world juniors.

You have to enlighten me here. How so? If you solely rely on stats, what do you think the percentage is of succesful players that are great in juniors and don't succeed in the NHL? Just take Reway last Junior year.....a guy that was close to him and finished 1st in the statssheet on the same team was....Émile Poirier. How's his NHL career? In his rookie year, 1st scorer was Zykov, then in order Paquin-Boudreau, Barbashev, Gauthier, Dauphin, Sanche. Slightly behind Reway, Sorensen, Zdrahal, Weegar, Martel, DeLuca, Jevpalovs....Take the whole 2013-2014 year, aside from the top guys like Mantha, Drouin and Ehlers, 99% of the top 100 scorers didn't make it.

So nope, I don't see a certain correlation. At all. Yes, if you hope to have some kind of success in the NHL, you need some lower level success. Of course. But it doesn't guarantee anything.

 

[26Mats]

You have to enlighten me here. How so? If you solely rely on stats, what do you think the percentage is of succesful players that are great in juniors and don't succeed in the NHL? Just take Reway last Junior year.....a guy that was close to him and finished 1st in the statssheet on the same team was....Émile Poirier. How's his NHL career? In his rookie year, 1st scorer was Zykov, then in order Paquin-Boudreau, Barbashev, Gauthier, Dauphin, Sanche. Slightly behind Reway, Sorensen, Zdrahal, Weegar, Martel, DeLuca, Jevpalovs....Take the whole 2013-2014 year, aside from the top guys like Mantha, Drouin and Ehlers, 99% of the top 100 scorers didn't make it.

So nope, I don't see a certain correlation. At all. Yes, if you hope to have some kind of success in the NHL, you need some lower level success. Of course. But it doesn't guarantee anything.

I didn't even want to get into the Zadian-Kotkaniemi-Tkachuk debate this summer. I wanted to wait until I saw him at camp. It's the same with Reway. But I sure liked what I saw in him. He was an exciting prospect before his injury. It's a shame we'll never get to see what could have become of him.

Never seen this highlight package before now, but it's what I expected from what I'd seen of him before the injury. Just a real shame we never got to see him at camp after his illness.

 

[Have]

Ikonen will play his first game of the season today. KalPa - HPK @ 10am ET (17:00 local time).

He's gonna start his season as the third line center on a line with Frank Gymer and Mikko Nuutinen. Currently the guy normally centering the third line (Balázs Sebők) is suffering from some minor injury, so Ikonen basically gets his spot on the lineup. My expectation is that without any new injuries, Ikonen will be serving as the 13th forward in the lineup after Sebok returns. I might be wrong though.

Update: Ikonen got 17:08 icetime (surprisingly much). He won 7/16 faceoffs and had 2 shots (1 on goal, 1 missed). Game ended 6-5 for HPK, Ikonen was not on ice during any of the 11 goals.
(all this taken from the game stats, there are no streams of Liiga games this year and I won't pay 30€/month for subscription. I will probably go see a KalPa game next week though)

 

[HOPE]

He went pointless wich was a bit expected, 0 in the +/- departement. But he player more than 17 minutes wich is a bot odd to me!