Post-Game Talk: #57| FLYERS 1 at Flames 3| Wednesday, February 15, 2017

[Delete99991]

LOL at defending Couturier after another game where he was absolutely invisible, except on the PP where he can't so much as execute a zone entry.

But more pressing right now are 93 and 28, both of whom are beyond lost.

What the hell is going on with this group of forwards? Besides Cousins and at times Weal and Read, nobody showed any spark in this game whatsoever.

 

[SuchySays]

LOL at defending Couturier after another game where he was absolutely invisible, except on the PP where he can't so much as execute a zone entry.

But more pressing right now are 93 and 28, both of whom are beyond lost.

What the hell is going on with this group of forwards? Besides Cousins and at times Weal and Read, nobody showed any spark in this game whatsoever.

One-trick Pony Isle.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

He was riding that "just got traded" momentum though and it was a significant outlier for his career at that point..and since it was just 39 games we don't know if those numbers were sustainable for a full season there. He then regressed to a league average goaltending in his first full year under Yeo/Torchetti, before becoming the "best goalie in the league" this year. Maybe he has just honestly gotten better with age and peaked at 30, but I think a lot of his to do with the way the team is playing in front of him; which has been directly effected by the new coach.

He was always pretty good up until his last year in Edmonton. He was playing behind some of the worst teams to take the ice in the last 20 years too.

I'm not even trying to argue that Hak is doing a bang up job but Minnesota is a lot better of a team than the Flyers. Even if it was just one addition the Staal signing was big not only from an individual standpoint but the trickle down effect as well.

 

[Random Forest]

LOL at defending Couturier after another game where he was absolutely invisible, except on the PP where he can't so much as execute a zone entry.

But more pressing right now are 93 and 28, both of whom are beyond lost.

What the hell is going on with this group of forwards? Besides Cousins and at times Weal and Read, nobody showed any spark in this game whatsoever.

Yeah, I'm going to continue appreciating Couturier for the things he does well, but we don't need to make excuses for the holes in his game at this point.

 

[Curufinwe]

LOL at claiming a player was invisible because they didn't score a point.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/20...-we-learned-from-more-drab-uninspiring-hockey

In Saturday’s victory over the San Jose Sharks, the new second line of Sean Couturier, Jakub Voracek and Jordan Weal was the standout trio, scoring the team’s only 5v5 goal of the contest and driving play to the tune of an 85+ percent Corsi. Last night, they weren’t quite as strong, but again led the way in comparison to the other three lines, as all of Couturier, Voracek and Weal finished with score-adjusted Corsi percentages over 65%. It wasn’t just empty shot generation, either. The Flyers created 12 regular and six high-danger scoring chances with Couturier on the ice, with Weal and Couturier posting on-ice Expected Goal percentages in the 80s.

PP2 is much worse this season and the main change has been replacing Medvedev, who scored plenty of PP points in 15-16, with Provorov, who is playing in his natural role but not producing with a man advantage.

 

[Random Forest]

PP2 is much worse this season and the main change has been replacing Medvedev, who scored plenty of PP points in 15-16, with Provorov, who is playing in his natural role but not producing with a man advantage.

Uh, sarcasm? Medvedev scored plenty of PP points? As in the guy who scored 3?

PP2 was miserable last year (and still is). By my count, they scored ~11 goals last year compared to ~7 so far this year.

Ideally, Couturier is in a PP role where he's not asked to make too many plays with the puck.

 

[Striiker]

LOL at defending Couturier after another game where he was absolutely invisible, except on the PP where he can't so much as execute a zone entry.

But more pressing right now are 93 and 28, both of whom are beyond lost.

What the hell is going on with this group of forwards? Besides Cousins and at times Weal and Read, nobody showed any spark in this game whatsoever.

You don't pay much attention, do ya?

 

[Rebels57]

Do people REALLY think 28, 93, 14, and more all just forgot how to play Hockey in their primes?

Harping on individuals when they arent producing makes sense when their lack of production is an exception from the rest of the team.

When its the entire team, its systemic.

 

[Delete99991]

LOL at claiming a player was invisible because they didn't score a point.

Not at all what I claimed.

He was invisible because he created no offense, had 1 shot, forced no turnovers, threw 1 hit, and was completely unnoticeable other than his aforementioned putrid zone entries and low-percentage plays.

That he had yet another zero point game is merely a symptom of the above.

So sorry guys - until people stop sounding like Pravda around here regarding Comrade Couturier, I'll keep reporting what I see.

 

[hatcher]

Not at all what I claimed.

He was invisible because he created no offense, had 1 shot, forced no turnovers, threw 1 hit, and was completely unnoticeable other than his aforementioned putrid zone entries and low-percentage plays.

That he had yet another zero point game is merely a symptom of the above.

So sorry guys - until people stop sounding like Pravda around here regarding Comrade Couturier, I'll keep reporting what I see.

keep reporting dude. Everyone e crept 5 or 6 on this site see it. Coots lol is nothing offensively.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Not at all what I claimed.

He was invisible because he created no offense, had 1 shot, forced no turnovers, threw 1 hit, and was completely unnoticeable other than his aforementioned putrid zone entries and low-percentage plays.

That he had yet another zero point game is merely a symptom of the above.

So sorry guys - until people stop sounding like Pravda around here regarding Comrade Couturier, I'll keep reporting what I see.

Since you can see to the real heart of the matter, it should be easy to explain why his teammates perform better with him on the ice at even strength than without him, correct? Does he hand out Snickers to his wingers between shifts? People like candy.

 

[Delete99991]

Since you can see to the real heart of the matter, it should be easy to explain why his teammates perform better with him on the ice at even strength than without him, correct? Does he hand out Snickers to his wingers between shifts? People like candy.

More snark. Thanks again for proving my point about the Coots snobs.

In terms of "performing better"- there are only two metrics by which that comment can be supported, and neither of the two take into account Couturier's penchant for low percentage shots and shot attempts (which has become almost absurd this season - my favorite being a 3-on-2 a few games ago where he pulled up at the blue line and fired the puck up into the safety net). I would argue Corsi with him is particularly misleading for this reason.

He is a terrible, heavy-handed passer and rarely creates with the puck. The best you can say about him is that he is strong on the wall and a half decent finisher in tight, hence many of his goals - in fact I suspect all of them, besides the empty netters - are from inside ten feet, not that there's anything wrong with that.

My core position is this: he is not developing at all offensively, and in fact has regressed... and his intangibles aren't all people crack them up to be. His 5-on-5 defense, particularly against top-heavy teams, is good and would be of use in a playoff run. But game-to-game, he offers little in terms of special teams and nothing in the OT/shootout world (and yes, this does matter in today's NHL unfortunately).

But keep on dishing out that snark guys, makes for great conversation.

 

[Johnk0728]

LOL at claiming a player was invisible because they didn't score a point.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/20...-we-learned-from-more-drab-uninspiring-hockey



PP2 is much worse this season and the main change has been replacing Medvedev, who scored plenty of PP points in 15-16, with Provorov, who is playing in his natural role but not producing with a man advantage.

15 points in 41 games for Couturier and you still think he doing well cause of a CORSI article on Broadsheet hockey. He can't finish.....His lack of offensive production is a big reason the Flyers are struggling. Voracek and Giroux are the main reason but #14 is having a terrible year. If you don't see that then you are ignoring facts.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Do people REALLY think 28, 93, 14, and more all just forgot how to play Hockey in their primes?

Harping on individuals when they arent producing makes sense when their lack of production is an exception from the rest of the team.

When its the entire team, its systemic.

Apparently we have to heap all of the blame on the players. Apparently there's definitely no middle ground to be found that accounts for looking at how they're playing individually compared to what effect the coach's system has on production and how those work together.

I can't think of any other fanbase that is so desperately eager to find any reason to trash their best players.

 

[Rebels57]

Apparently we have to heap all of the blame on the players. Apparently there's definitely no middle ground to be found that accounts for looking at how they're playing individually compared to what effect the coach's system has on production and how those work together.

I can't think of any other fanbase that is so desperately eager to find any reason to trash their best players.

It's really mind-boggling. This is the same city that **** all over the best 3B to ever play baseball in Mike Schmidt, so I cant say im surprised.

 

[TCTC]

Their best players? How about every player? But I guess *****ing and stupid nicknames are okay, but don't you dare criticize Couturier...

 

[deadhead]

Well, I wouldn't call Couts a great player, but given his salary he's certainly not overpaid. A solid role player who fits in the top 9, top 6 with the right wingers. And he's also solid on the PK, though replaceable on the PP.

 

[Rebels57]

Their best players? How about every player? But I guess *****ing and stupid nicknames are okay, but don't you dare criticize Couturier...

I havent been thrilled with Coots this season but on a team this dysfunctional, very few look like they are playing well.

 

[TCTC]

I havent been thrilled with Coots this season but on a team this dysfunctional, very few look like they are playing well.

I completely agree and I didn't mean to single him out, but he's not above criticism.

 

[Crescent Street]

Couturier is literally a black hole on offense. Skates like a slug, has borderline zero creativity for a guy that can supposedly really "think" the game. He is much more suited for a 3rd line C role.

None of this is new though. The one bright spot being his FO% this year where he's made a big improvement.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

More snark. Thanks again for proving my point about the Coots snobs.

If you came with a reasoned post, whether I agreed with or not, I would have responded in kind. You came in with LOLs. This is better. Respectful tones are a two way street.

In terms of "performing better"- there are only two metrics by which that comment can be supported, and neither of the two take into account Couturier's penchant for low percentage shots and shot attempts (which has become almost absurd this season - my favorite being a 3-on-2 a few games ago where he pulled up at the blue line and fired the puck up into the safety net). I would argue Corsi with him is particularly misleading for this reason.

Setting aside the anecdotal evidence, let's look at 5v5 GF% for his most common teammates over the last 2 years because even though it's rudimentary, it ignores shot totals.

Higher with Couturier: Voracek, Gudas, Read, Simmonds, Raffl, Schultz, Manning, Gostisbehere
Virtually the same: Del Zotto
Higher without: Streit

I'll come back later to finish my answer. On my way out the door.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Their best players? How about every player? But I guess *****ing and stupid nicknames are okay, but don't you dare criticize Couturier...

My whole Schenn thing was a joke. I've explained that multiple times.

 

[Magua]

My whole Schenn thing was a joke. I've explained that multiple times.

Only a person more corpulent than Brayden Schenn would say this.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Only a person more corpulent than Brayden Schenn would say this.

I've got a remarkably fat soul.

 

[Delete99991]

Setting aside the anecdotal evidence, let's look at 5v5 GF% for his most common teammates over the last 2 years because even though it's rudimentary, it ignores shot totals.

Higher with Couturier: Voracek, Gudas, Read, Simmonds, Raffl, Schultz, Manning, Gostisbehere
Virtually the same: Del Zotto
Higher without: Streit

I'll come back later to finish my answer. On my way out the door.

This speaks to any number of things, including the relative dead weight we had at C (Vinny, Umberger now and then) and G's slippage 5-on-5 last year.

It also doesn't speak to trajectory. Where was Sean in 2014 and where is he today? Same place? Half a step forward? Or a step back?

There's a famous saying about lying with statistics; I'd prefer to say you can make any case about a player these days in a spreadsheet, with a few exceptions (ahem VDV). A few of you are just locked in on this player. It's to a fault, in my view.