Post-Game Talk: #5: FLYERS at Oilers, Wednesday, Oct. 16, 2019, 9:30 pm ET

[dragonoffrost]

Except Jake and Giroux aren't set up on their ideal sides for shooting, I don't get why you refuse to understand that. I'm a big fan of Couts living in the Briere area (let's not act like anyone but Gretzky could do what he did), I was calling for it last year when it was clear Simmonds had to stop being the focus around the net.

But if Couts is going to do that, then he has much better options if G and V are in places where they can naturally shoot or set up each other. Currently they aren't. I am calling for a more dynamic PP with more threats. You, for some reason, are insisting that setting the PP up to limit their options is the bee's knees. G and V being on their wrong sides will limit absolutely any setup you can dream of. No matter what, it will not be as efficient or dangerous as it could be.

For example, the only one timer option under your plan comes from down low, and it's not even ideal. Under my plan they can be set up from behind the net or from the point.

I'm also calling for options. Hell they can move during flow of the play and go to either of the spots. It's idiotic to say they have to stay on one side. THAT'S f***ING BUBBLE HOCKEY LOGIC.

 

[Here4ThaLids]

The process has been fantastic and so have the results. PP1 is producing extremely efficient shots/chances and the results have been better than any unit in the league.

Once again, we're not talking about the unit not creating and just getting lucky goals. They are consistently producing pressure, just about every shift.

All of the underlying metrics for Giroux, Voracek and Ghost are far above the numbers they produced when they all had career years in 2017-18 and Giroux was positioned on the left. This is a small sample, to be sure, but we're talking about a situation where Ghost doesn't even have a point yet -- it's not about short-term results.

Think about this conversation after the first unit goes ten games without scoring, or failing that, gets a bigger sample size with this setup.

Until then, enjoy your bliss.

 

[deadhead]

The process has been fantastic and so have the results. PP1 is producing extremely efficient shots/chances and the results have been better than any unit in the league.

Once again, we're not talking about the unit not creating and just getting lucky goals. They are consistently producing pressure, just about every shift.

All of the underlying metrics for Giroux, Voracek and Ghost are far above the numbers they produced when they all had career years in 2017-18 and Giroux was positioned on the left. This is a small sample, to be sure, but we're talking about a situation where Ghost doesn't even have a point yet -- it's not about short-term results.

The system that worked from 2015-18 broke down in 2018-19, same coaches, same players, different results.

Don't see why AV and Therrien shouldn't try some different things, for one thing, being able to change up personnel, positioning and scheme makes it harder for opposing teams to defend you if they have to prepare for multiple approaches. Do the same thing with the same personnel for an extended period, and opposing coaches may figure out how to defend it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm also calling for options. Hell they can move during flow of the play and go to either of the spots. It's idiotic to say they have to stay on one side. THAT'S ****ING BUBBLE HOCKEY LOGIC.

Again, you're referring to the thing that did much to even make them a bubble team instead of a basement team as if it's bad, so that's comical. Fun fact: Not every single thing about the previous eras needs to be thrown out. Some of it was good, even. Like, say, leaving Giroux where he is at his best. Anything else is on par with Oates musing about tinkering with OV's shot. Change for its own sake isn't always good.

Why should they switch sides and then limit their options? Why would that be considered positive flexibility?

 

[Curufinwe]

I liked the PP setup for the 3rd goal. That's about it for positives.

 

[Here4ThaLids]

Remember the days when the perimeter and net front shot densities would be swapped?

Yes I do! Here's the visual reminder for those who don't -- it's breath-taking:

 

[dragonoffrost]

Again, you're referring to the thing that did much to even make them a bubble team instead of a basement team as if it's bad, so that's comical. Fun fact: Not every single thing about the previous eras needs to be thrown out. Some of it was good, even. Like, say, leaving Giroux where he is at his best. Anything else is on par with Oates musing about tinkering with OV's shot.

Why should they switch sides and then limit their options? Why would that be considered positive flexibility?

I quit you want a power play that uses one and only one setup. I want one with motion and confusion for the defending team. We just need to disagree.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

THAT'S ****ING BUBBLE HOCKEY LOGIC.

Am I the only one that always wanted the USSR side? The uniforms were better.

 

[baudib1]

The system that worked from 2015-18 broke down in 2018-19, same coaches, same players, different results.

Don't see why AV and Therrien shouldn't try some different things, for one thing, being able to change up personnel, positioning and scheme makes it harder for opposing teams to defend you if they have to prepare for multiple approaches. Do the same thing with the same personnel for an extended period, and opposing coaches may figure out how to defend it.

yeah i agree

 

[Beef Invictus]

I quit you want a power play that uses one and only one setup. I want one with motion and confusion for the defending team. We just need to disagree.

I've proposed one that allows goals to be set up from either wall, down low, or at the point which would stretch out a PK. You've been defending this current setup which thus far only reliably sets up Ghost while whoever is in around the net is constantly pressured by PKers, and neither G nor V are reliable options for quick shots.

 

[1865]

If AV wants to play his vets (other than Slugwart) fine, but please replace Bunny (sorry Cap) and Twarynski with Frost and Farabee asap. This lineup needs more skill and a viable 3rd line

Frost has 0 points in 3 games in the AHL and didn’t have a stellar pre-season either. There’s nothing to suggest he belongs in the NHL yet. Farabee I could be convinced on though.

 

[deadhead]

Yes I do! Here's the visual reminder for those who don't -- it's breath-taking:

Yes, they're making more shots from in front of the net, but also a lot of bad angle shots and are really bad in the rectangle in the front center of the O-zone.
So a lot can still be improved.

 

[Striiker]

These arguments to defend the new awful setup are legitimately hilarious.

"but that's what they did as a bubble team!" ... except the PP was one of the only things that kept them remotely near the bubble
"but look at the total goals so far!" ... except only one of those goals was by the broken setup that's being bashed
"but the PP hasn't been working!"... except it was working better than ever the year before they switched to this new setup
"but the old setup was figured out!"... except it wasn't and has been consistently producing for years

 

[Garbage Goal]

On the PP discussion, one crucial thing we used to have we now don’t is the great slot deflection/net front guy. Simmonds used to be that guy and he was a big part of the PP, Patrick showed he could be that guy but can’t stay healthy. JVR doesn’t cut it for me, personally, and I don’t see any other options there with Patrick out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

These arguments to defend the new awful setup are legitimately hilarious.

"but that's what they did as a bubble team!" ... except the PP was one of the only things that kept them remotely near the bubble
"but look at the total goals so far!" ... except only one of those goals was by the broken setup that's being bashed
"but the PP hasn't been working!"... except it was working better than ever the year before they switched to this new setup
"but the old setup was figured out!"... except it wasn't and has been consistently producing for years

Yeah, it's less that the old setup was figured out and more than Simmonds became a husk and Ghost's shot was crap last year. Everyone knew what our setup was. It wasn't a mystery. It simply wasn't something you could really defend against; it required players not executing for it to be "figured out."

Well, Ghost looks like he can shoot again. So the remaining issue is replacing Simmonds. I'm partial to leaving JVR in front and letting Couturier work behind the net. Then put Giroux and Voracek where they've proven they work the best. Let's try fixing issues instead of creating new ones.

 

[deadhead]

Except that Ghost hasn't showed that he can handle the more aggressive PK that are becoming more common in the NHL these days.
And it would help if he'd occasionally hit the net with his 40 foot slap shots.

 

[FlyerNutter]

These arguments to defend the new awful setup are legitimately hilarious.

"but that's what they did as a bubble team!" ... except the PP was one of the only things that kept them remotely near the bubble
"but look at the total goals so far!" ... except only one of those goals was by the broken setup that's being bashed
"but the PP hasn't been working!"... except it was working better than ever the year before they switched to this new setup
"but the old setup was figured out!"... except it wasn't and has been consistently producing for years

A lot is pure fear of considering that Chuck and his coaches aren’t the solution.

 

[Striiker]

Yeah, it's less that the old setup was figured out and more than Simmonds became a husk and Ghost's shot was crap last year. Everyone knew what our setup was. It wasn't a mystery. It simply wasn't something you could really defend against; it required players not executing for it to be "figured out."

Well, Ghost looks like he can shoot again. So the remaining issue is replacing Simmonds. I'm partial to leaving JVR in front and letting Couturier work behind the net. Then put Giroux and Voracek where they've proven they work the best. Let's try fixing issues instead of creating new ones.

The example I keep using is that everyone knows what Ovi and Backstrom are going to do on the PP but nobody can stop it because knowing what's going to happen and knowing how to stop it are EXTREMELY different things.

As for last year, part of it was Ghost being hurt, part of it was Simmonds sucking, part of it was the team being a disaster in general and needing a coaching change, but also it was such a small sample size and this unit has always had slump periods where things just not clicking... but they always get past it and make up for it. When they ruined the unit with the side swap, they made sure that the unit never recovered and made up for the slump.

 

[CSKA1974]

Am I the only one that always wanted the USSR side? The uniforms were better.

nope.
<---
<---

 

[Striiker]

A lot is pure fear of considering that Chuck and his coaches aren’t the solution.

Yeah, some people are still clinging to them with some kind of crazy misguided loyalty and are trying to defend nearly everything they do. Even when it's things they (rightfully) bashed before when Hakstol/Hextall did it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Except that Ghost hasn't showed that he can handle the more aggressive PK that are becoming more common in the NHL these days.
And it would help if he'd occasionally hit the net with his 40 foot slap shots.

You haven't noticed that he has been?

Watching Ghost outskate PKers to dish off passes and attempt shots these last few games would seem to indicate he's handling, too.

In order to see payoff though, something has to be done to open things up more.

 

[BiggE]

The example I keep using is that everyone knows what Ovi and Backstrom are going to do on the PP but nobody can stop it because knowing what's going to happen and knowing how to stop it are EXTREMELY different things.

As for last year, part of it was Ghost being hurt, part of it was Simmonds sucking, part of it was the team being a disaster in general and needing a coaching change, but also it was such a small sample size and this unit has always had slump periods where things just not clicking... but they always get past it and make up for it. When they ruined the unit with the side swap, they made sure that the unit never recovered and made up for the slump.

Exactly
In the mid 80s everyone knew the Flyers were going to try to get the puck into the slot to Tim Kerr. And yet, even in an era where mugging was basically legal, all Kerr did was rack up a ton of pp goals.

Here’s the thing: a well designed pp, executed properly, by skilled personnel is going to be successful. Even if the opponent knows what they are trying to accomplish, the lack of a 5th skater will still make it difficult to defend.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Yeah, some people are still clinging to them with some kind of crazy misguided loyalty and are trying to defend nearly everything they do. Even when it's things they (rightfully) bashed before when Hakstol/Hextall did it.

I didn’t mean that in an insulting way, and not directed at a majority.

After the last 10 years I simply have zero optimism and faith left for this club.

Get some of the kids back up.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Exactly
In the mid 80s everyone knew the Flyers were going to try to get the puck into the slot to Tim Kerr. And yet, even in an era where mugging was basically legal, all Kerr did was rack up a ton of pp goals.

Here’s the thing: a well designed pp, executed properly, by skilled personnel is going to be successful. Even if the opponent knows what they are trying to accomplish, the lack of a 5th skater will still make it difficult to defend.

I think one of the most typed phrases on this site for years was "Why did they leave Stamkos open!?"

Well, because they only have 4 skaters and he's elite at sneaking. Everybody knows TB seeks to tee him up, it still happens.

 

[Striiker]

I didn’t mean that in an insulting way, and not directed at a majority.

After the last 10 years I simply have zero optimism and faith left for this club.

Get some of the kids back up.

I know what you meant and I didn’t mean what I said in an insulting way either. It’s just how it is.

And I know you’re not too optimistic and I can’t blame you for that. Having a “believe it when I see it attitude” makes a lot of sense.

Personally, I have a ton of faith in our players and zero faith in our coaching/GM, so it’s kinda balancing out right now. Unfortunately the latter has control over the former, so their stupidity can potentially override the players skill if they don’t get their heads out of their asses sooner than later. This league is too tough to throw away games and hope to compete.