GDT: #5: FLYERS at Oilers, Wednesday, Oct. 16, 2019, 9:30 pm ET

[VladDrag]

I'm not even arguing advanced stats. Someone mentioned Couturier being our best player in relation to JVR/Voracek struggling to score points and having played with our best player. Which is a bad argument in that context because, historically and consistently, Giroux has been our best offensive player and raises the offensive output of his teammates. Not Couturier, even if his all-around play might suggest he's arguably our best forward/player.

Couturier has 8 seasons in the NHL, before the last two he never reached 40 points and was surely never in the top 60 of point production. He's fared much better in ES production, but you can't use a lack of PP scoring as a credit to him since he's not very good on the PP historically. IIRC, we started using Giroux on Couturier's wing two seasons ago. The same time Couturier jumped from a sub 40 point player to a 5o, 70+ point and 30+ goal producer. That's not really a coincidence.

I'm not trying to crap on you, so please don't take it this way, but Couts scored 39p is 63gp in 15-16. He only had a meteoric type rise to people who didn't pay attention.

 

[Garbage Goal]

It's was mutually beneficial.

Couts is one of the best ES play drivers in the league. Giroux scored so well because Couts was is center. Couts scored so well because he was playing with legit top 6 talent.

See below. I said it was mutually beneficial.

Are we really going to pretend like Giroux wasn't an all-around elite offensive producer for many, many years prior to playing with Couturier and feign ignorance about Couts not being one prior to that?

 

[Rich Nixon]

Get a win tonight for the traditional 1-1-1 Western Canada trip.

 

[BiggE]

I'm not trying to crap on you, so please don't take it this way, but Couts scored 39p is 63gp in 15-16. He only had a meteoric type rise to people who didn't pay attention.

Getting quality wingers to skate with and top pp time helps too. Coots always produced at ES, often with average wings.

 

[bennysflyers16]

We have played first 4 games in 4 different time zones, that has to be a first I bet !!

 

[Rebels57]

Nice argument, congrats on being your typical internet person.

Dude..the "Couturier hasn't scored 40 points yet" nonsense had been analyzed and broken down for YEARS on this board. It's a meme at this point. Bringing that up as proof he isn't a 5v5 play-driver is in 2019 is actually hilarious to me.

 

[marcsson68]

They've barely played with Couturier
also an important distinction should be made between "not good" and "not worth $5.75 million per year plus 1 million of Gudas' salary"

But bennysflyers16 is still right in both aspects. Especially Voracek hasn´t been bad because of his linemates. Maybe he is injured or ill, maybe it is just a short slump. But anyway you cannot afford that some of your highest paid players don´t have an impact.
And evaluating the 4 games into this still young season you could argue that Niskanen has been our overall best D-man. When has this been the case with Gudas?

 

[VladDrag]

See below. I said it was mutually beneficial.

Are we really going to pretend like Giroux wasn't an all-around elite offensive producer for many, many years prior to playing with Couturier and feign ignorance about Couts not being one prior to that?

I also said the same thing.

And, yes Giroux was an elite offensive producer. Giroux in his prime was a top 10-15 player in the NHL. Criminally underrated by both local and national media, but the keyword here in the first sentence was.

If you believe Couts was not an extremely strong performer prior to being placed with Giroux, particularly at ES prior to meeting with Giroux, then I don't know what to tell you. It was a match made in heaven.

 

[Garbage Goal]

I'm not trying to crap on you, so please don't take it this way, but Couts scored 39p is 63gp in 15-16. He only had a meteoric type rise to people who didn't pay attention.

If I did my math right, that's a sub 50 point pace. Good for around 90th~ in the league in point production that year, among the likes of Boone Jenner and Scott Hartnell. So, again, are we pretending that's the promising production of an offensive superstar? The following season he scored and paced for even less with 34 in 66.

You, along with everyone else who likes to react before using their reading comprehension or critical thinking abilities, aren't actually addressing what I've been saying.

Couturier was a sub 50 point player, at best, and not in the top 60 in the league for point production prior to playing with Giroux, fact. Giroux has been an elite offensive superstar for literally years upon years, fact. Couturier added like 20 points to his best pacing while playing with Giroux, Giroux added just a few points to his previous best pacing. Couturier has historically been a bad to mediocre PP player and Giroux has historically been a PP QB, generally accepted opinion backed up by facts. Someone said JVR and Voracek played with our best player in the context of them not scoring enough, implying Couturier is our best offensive forward, fact. Which makes no sense considering that Giroux has historically always been our best offensive forward and Couturier has not historically been at the level of other 1st liners and elite 2nd liners in point production prior to playing with Giroux.

 

[Rebels57]

I'm sure there was much mutual benefit, but one player was a sub 40 point player prior to playing with the other for six consecutive seasons and the other had been an elite point producer in the NHL for seven seasons prior. Including having paced for only a few points less than that career high many, many seasons prior.

So I am also sure, in the context of a discussion about offensive output, the benefit was much more in Couturier's favor the last couple seasons.

Here it is again..in 2019..

whatyearisit.gif

 

[Garbage Goal]

Dude..the "Couturier hasn't scored 40 points yet" nonsense had been analyzed and broken down for YEARS on this board. It's a meme at this point. Bringing that up as proof he isn't a 5v5 play-driver is in 2019 is actually hilarious to me.

Find me where I said he isn't a 5 v 5 player driver? Literally anywhere. Can you even articulate what my original argument is, in reply to someone else's without looking back? I really doubt it. Use your reading comprehension and critical thinking before knee-jerk reacting like your typical internet person. At least know what argument you're getting into before arguing. I would use all the pretentious laughing smilies here if I was more arrogant and knee-jerky.

Fine, he was never a 50 point pacer before playing with Giroux. It literally doesn't matter because it's completely besides the point and has nothing to do with what I was saying. Doesn't even change the assertion of him not being an elite offensive player relative to other top six players prior to playing with Giroux.

 

[landsbergfan]

But bennysflyers16 is still right in both aspects. Especially Voracek hasn´t been bad because of his linemates. Maybe he is injured or ill, maybe it is just a short slump. But anyway you cannot afford that some of your highest paid players don´t have an impact.
And evaluating the 4 games into this still young season you could argue that Niskanen has been our overall best D-man. When has this been the case with Gudas?

they obviously can afford to not have him make an impact because they keep playing him on the wrong side of the PP and pushing him lower in the lineup

 

[Curufinwe]

Couturier produced ESP at a higher rate than his wingers for years before Hak put him with G, and they both went to new heights together.

 

[Curufinwe]

Fine, he was never a 50 point pacer before playing with Giroux.

39 P in 63 GP is pacing for 51 points.

In 15-16 and 16-17. which were the last two seasons they didn't play together, Couturier was slightly ahead then way ahead of G in ES point production.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Rebels57]

Find me where I said he isn't a 5 v 5 player driver? Literally anywhere. Can you even articulate what my original argument is, in reply to someone else's without looking back? I really doubt it. Use your reading comprehension and critical thinking before knee-jerk reacting like your typical internet person. At least know what argument you're getting into before arguing. I would use all the pretentious laughing smilies here if I was more arrogant and knee-jerky.

Fine, he was never a 50 point pacer before playing with Giroux. It literally doesn't matter because it's completely besides the point and has nothing to do with what I was saying. Doesn't even change the assertion of him not being an elite offensive player relative to other top six players prior to playing with Giroux.

Couturier might be our best all-around player, but historically he's not an offensive driver relative to point/goal scoring against other 1st/2nd line forwards. Not in a face of the franchise or superstar kind of way. Giroux has always been that guy, case in point being that Couturier's best output and offensive breakout came with Giroux on his left wing.

Your point doesn't even really make sense. How many forwards in the NHL are going to score at an elite pace playing with Matt Read and R.J. Umberger types getting 3rd line minutes while tasked with brutal zone starts and facing other teams top lines?

Good players need to play with other good players and be put in positions to succeed in order to produce. Once Couturier was put in this position, he produced and simultaneously shut down the opposition.

 

[TheKingPin]

Think you have to put G Couts Voracek. Basically guarantees pts for G and Jake.

This game will either start a slump or settle things down. Gotta get 2 points tonight.

Yup this is actually a very big game. #Flyordie if you will

As usual, I'll believe it when I see it.

They haven't earned anyones faith.

I’m with you. Nothing logical should be thought possible unless it happens. Fletcher is an idiot. If both Frost and Farabee are up by December I’m kind of ok. Myers or Morin needs to be in ASAP. I can understand trying to develop Frost and Farabee, but I don’t get Myers or Morin

 

[landsbergfan]

I'm sure there was much mutual benefit, but one player was a sub 40 point player prior to playing with the other for six consecutive seasons and the other had been an elite point producer in the NHL for seven seasons prior. Including having paced for only a few points less than that career high many, many seasons prior.

So I am also sure, in the context of a discussion about offensive output, the benefit was much more in Couturier's favor the last couple seasons.

my comment was tongue-in-cheek

As others mentioned, there are plenty of obvious and known reasons why there was a difference in point totals for the majority of coots' career (usage being the most obvious) He is now their best player at even strength, so anyone that is playing with him is being given the best opportunity for success. Both are great players and I fully agree that the relationship was mutually beneficial, same as it is with guys like Konecny and Voracek (if he played with Coots).

 

[marcsson68]

That discussion about G and Couturier leads to nothing.

A small decline of "aging" G and Voracek is something eveybody should accept. The question is how quick and steep this happens. I love G and am so-so about Voracek, but both still are in a position where the Flyers need many many many goals and assists from them as well as from Couturier, van Riemsdyk, Konecny and Hayes. If two or three of them remain silent, we will be lost. And don´t put the blame upon coaches, 4th liners or 3rd pairings in that case.

 

[Curufinwe]

Dude..the "Couturier hasn't scored 40 points yet" nonsense had been analyzed and broken down for YEARS on this board. It's a meme at this point. Bringing that up as proof he isn't a 5v5 play-driver is in 2019 is actually hilarious to me.

whatyearisit.jpg

 

[TheKingPin]

That discussion about G and Couturier leads to nothing.

A small decline of "aging" G and Voracek is something eveybody should accept. The question is how quick and steep this happens. I love G and am so-so about Voracek, but both still are in a position where the Flyers need many many many goals and assists from them as well as from Couturier, van Riemsdyk, Konecny and Hayes. If two or three of them remain silent, we will be lost. And don´t put the blame upon coaches, 4th liners or 3rd pairings in that case.

Those two should both get 70 pts this year
Or more.

 

[VladDrag]

If I did my math right, that's a sub 50 point pace. Good for around 90th~ in the league in point production that year, among the likes of Boone Jenner and Scott Hartnell. So, again, are we pretending that's the promising production of an offensive superstar? The following season he scored and paced for even less with 34 in 66.

You, along with everyone else who likes to react before using their reading comprehension or critical thinking abilities, aren't actually addressing what I've been saying.

Couturier was a sub 50 point player, at best, and not in the top 60 in the league for point production prior to playing with Giroux, fact. Giroux has been an elite offensive superstar for literally years upon years, fact. Couturier added like 20 points to his best pacing while playing with Giroux, Giroux added just a few points to his previous best pacing. Couturier has historically been a bad to mediocre PP player and Giroux has historically been a PP QB, generally accepted opinion backed up by facts. Someone said JVR and Voracek played with our best player in the context of them not scoring enough, implying Couturier is our best offensive forward, fact. Which makes no sense considering that Giroux has historically always been our best offensive forward and Couturier has not historically been at the level of other 1st liners and elite 2nd liners in point production prior to playing with Giroux.

Bruh - don't get so defensive. We can actually just talk. I'm not trying to prove you wrong.

Couts has been one of the best producers at ES, even before Giroux and Couts were put together. And there are reasons as to why Couts didn't produce at those rates (usage and quality of teammates).

 

[Curufinwe]

Think you have to put G Couts Voracek. Basically guarantees pts for G and Jake.

I agree. Also, Konecny and Lindblom should work well with Hayes' playmaking.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Your point doesn't even really make sense. How many forwards in the NHL are going to score at an elite pace playing with Matt Read and R.J. Umberger types getting 3rd line minutes while tasked with brutal zone starts and facing other teams top lines?

Good players need to play with other good players and be put in positions to succeed in order to produce. Once Couturier was put in this position, he produced and simultaneously shut down the opposition.

Where in that sentence does it say 5 v 5? Or did you just completely skip over the word offensive and phrase relative to other 1st and 2nd liners? Just like you skipped over the context of the post in the first place.

Again, use your reading comprehension and critical thinking next time. I'm not gonna waste any more time arguing with someone who can't read what I write correctly, combing over the minutiae of usage across six NHL seasons for something that is completely besides the context and point of my original post. You'd get that if you'd stop to think before responding. It is worth noting that part of Giroux's historically elite offensive production, as well as most top point producer's, is inflated by PP ability. Something that Couturier has historically, and still does, lack. Which is part of being an elite offensive player and all-around offensive player.

 

[Garbage Goal]

my comment was tongue-in-cheek

As others mentioned, there are plenty of obvious and known reasons why there was a difference in point totals for the majority of coots' career (usage being the most obvious) He is now their best player at even strength, so anyone that is playing with him is being given the best opportunity for success. Both are great players and I fully agree that the relationship was mutually beneficial, same as it is with guys like Konecny and Voracek (if he played with Coots).

He's always been one of our best, if not our best, ES forward. I never said otherwise.

 

[Rebels57]

Where in that sentence does it say 5 v 5? Or did you just completely skip over the word offensive and phrase relative to other 1st and 2nd liners? Just like you skipped over the context of the post in the first place.

Again, use your reading comprehension and critical thinking next time. I'm not gonna waste any more time arguing with someone who can't read what I write correctly, combing over the minutiae of usage across six NHL seasons for something that is completely besides the context and point of my original post. You'd get that if you'd stop to think before responding. It is worth noting that part of Giroux's historically elite offensive production, as well as most top point producer's, is inflated by PP ability. Something that Couturier has historically, and still does, lack. Which is part of being an elite offensive player and all-around offensive player.

I'm pretty content with my critical thinking since between the two of us, i'm the one that understands how good Couturier has been...long before he was paired with Giroux.

Good day.