Post-Game Talk: #30: FLYERS at Oilers, Friday, Dec. 14, 2018, 9:00 pm ET

[Outlaw Samurai]

I’m sorry for every flyers fan who watches anymore, already done watching completely

Yep. Watching this team ruined by a complete and utter moron is waaaay to horrifying. I'm pretty sure the rage induced high blood pressure takes about 6 months off our lives per game.

The GDT, PGT and always hilarious Fire Hakstool thread provide a very clear picture

And fantasizing about an angry Gritty losing it and doing this to Hak helps..

 

[kudymen]

Embarrassing.

Imagine being a coach with a track of 288 absolutely shitty games on your hands and then have the balls to say "Gord Murphy should go and I might be a bit responsible for Hextall's departure"

 

[kudymen]

We're past "fire the coach." We're at "fire the team."

You've never been there. And I think 288 games of "it's everybody's but his fault" is a little bit too much.

 

[Tripod]

Hitchock couldn't turn Talbot into a good goalie, so he simply made Koskinen the starter.
Our "Koskinen" is in the AHL at age 20 learning how to play goalie, so we don't have that option, until maybe next year.

.

More lies

Go look at Talbot's numbers before Hitch and after Hitch.

Both goalies numbers have gotten better since the coaching change and system change.

 

[Adtar02]

I didn’t watch the third. But in the first and second. It looked like giroux was out playing the mcdavid line. And Hal was trying hard to get Laughton out the against him as fast as possible. So not sure why anyone is using that as a knock on giroux.

 

[Jtown]

I didn’t watch the third. But in the first and second. It looked like giroux was out playing the mcdavid line. And Hal was trying hard to get Laughton out the against him as fast as possible. So not sure why anyone is using that as a knock on giroux.

Its one of the bad things about splitting up giroux and coots. Coots is such a great defensive center that teams really do their best to avoid matching up with him, and now Giroux has to go up against teams best centers. If they can remedy that , it can work in their favor but it involves getting JVR off of Giroux's line immediately.

 

[Starat327]

I'm enjoying that even fans of other teams we play can post a coherent argument as to how bad our coach/system is, and it's still just utterly ignored.

For a little while, I thought maybe we we're just part of a hive. But when the whole world can see something that one person can't, that's not being part of a hive. That's just one person being, well, dead-headed.

apropos.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Hitch's game management: keep David away from Couts, sic him on Giroux at center. So we have a coach telling us that Giroux isn't a 1C, at least defensively.

There's a lot more problems than Hakstol. Anyone who has watched this road trip and thinks just changing coaches will fix this team (we're not Edmonton which just needed some discipline and structure and to play the backup goalie) is a fool. It's time to clean house.."

News flash, MCDavid makes alot of centers look foolish. How many teams have players that match up well with McDavid?
You’re just reaching and trying to deflect away from the obvious.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Yeesh, missed thr game but it sounds like that was a smart move on my part.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

So its when they play at a 108 point pace because Giroux and the other core players carried this team to the playoffs and had nothing left in the tank for the playoffs, that is somehow Hakstol gets credit for.
When the team looks like dogshit for much of the season, Hakstol deserves little blame and is not responsible for hardly any of it.
Moving the goalposts is definitely a strong suit for you deadhead.
This roster has its flaws but there is no way they should be this bad. It is a unwatchable product right now. That is on the coaching staff.

 

[Rodu58]

we had a game last night?

 

[FlyTimmo]

Hard to believe it was possible, but 90% of the roster got worse. And the 10% that didn't, are players who couldn't conceivably get worse than they were, like Hagg and Weise.

A large chunk has to be coaching right? Or maybe just a total lack of confidence in front of the worst group of goalies in the history of the NHL?

Poor Giroux, he deserves so much better.

 

[freakydallas13]

Far be it for me to argue with you about your own team's roster, but if Hitch can make lemonade out of lemons in Edmonton (which has far less talent than you might think, beyond McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH, a handful of defenders and a 6'5" goalie), I'd imagine a better coach can at least get the Flyers to a playoff spot.

I've watched a lot of bad hockey coaches over the last decade plus with the Oilers, and Hakstol looks just as bad as the worst of them (Eakins). The only thing keeping him from having an all-time bad season like Eakins had with the Oilers is the fact that the Flyers' roster is too talented to outright tank, even with a terrible coach at the helm. Get a better coach and I'd be surprised if you guys didn't make some noise this season.

95% of the flyers board agrees with you, a select few posters defend this coach to the death though. Deadhead in particular thinks changing coaches won't solve all our problems (it won't, but it sure as hell won't hurt), so there is no reason to fire the coach.

It's the strangest, most ass backwards argument most of us have ever seen.

 

[deadhead]

They were dominated in the playoffs under Lavi (2011-12, check the advanced metrics, terrible, just got lucky that MAF melted down in the first round), Berube and Hak. When this happened under three different coaches in four playoff appearances, uh, maybe the problem is more than coaching?

And you can't just change coaches,
St Louis, 5-5-1 under Berube
Chicago, 4-12-3 under Colliton
Kings, 7-12-1 under Desjardins

It's working in Edmonton, but that's the exception.

Coaching changes midstream:
CBJ 2015-16, Richards started 0-7-0, Tortorella 34-33-8
Pens, 2015-16, Johnston 15-10-3, Sullivan 33-16-5 [with major roster changes]
NYI, 2016-17, Capuano 17-17-8, Weight 24-12-4 [100 points the previous year]
NJD, 2014-15, DeBoer 12-17-7, Bench 20-19-7
TB, 2012-13, Boucher 13-18-1, Cooper 5-8-3
Toronto 2014-15, Carlyle 21-16-3, Horachek 9-28-5
Buf, 2012-13, Ruff 6-10-1, Rolston 15-11-5
Buf, 2013-14, Rolston 4-15-1, Nolan 17-36-9
Bos, 2016-17, Julien 26-23-6, Cassidy 18-8-1
Mon, 2016-17, Therrien 31-19-8, Julien 16-7-1
Ottawa, 2014-15, MacLean 11-11-5, Cameron 32-15-8
Fla, 2016-17, Gallant 11-9-1, Rowe 24-27-10
Win, 2013-14, Noel 19-23-5, Maurice 18-12-5
Minn, 2015-16, Yeo 23-22-10, Torchetti 15-11-1
Stl 2016-17, Hitchcock 24-21-5, Yeo 22-8-2 [107 points the previous year]
Edm 2014-15, Eakins 7-19-5, Nelson 17-25-9
Kings 2011-12, Murray 13-12-4, Stevens 2-2, Sutter 25-13-11

Good teams often rebound for two reasons:
1) regression to the mean, a good team on a slow start simply plays up to its talent
2) tuned out the old coach who overstayed his welcome, See Boston/Montreal in 2016-17

Bad teams often fail to rebound, because, well, they were bad.
It also helps to identify the replacement coach before you make the move, that is, either a veteran coach or someone in your organization, instead of a stopgap interim coach out of desperation.

The biggest danger is the interim coach gets a bounceback, you give him a long-term contract, and find out why he was available: Yeo in St Louis, Rolston in Buffalo, Weight with the Islanders

 

[deadhead]

95% of the flyers board agrees with you, a select few posters defend this coach to the death though. Deadhead in particular thinks changing coaches won't solve all our problems (it won't, but it sure as hell won't hurt), so there is no reason to fire the coach.

It's the strangest, most ass backwards argument most of us have ever seen.

No, I didn't say there was no reason to fire the coach, what I've been saying is replacing him with Gordon or Knob isn't going to make a difference - you might get a bounce back, but it'll be "fool's gold." I'm far more concerned with roster moves than coaching moves right now, because I don't think this roster works as currently constructed.

Simply firing Hakstol is throwing red meat to the fans, it'll satiate their appetites for a couple weeks, then the "fire Gordon" threads will begin. Some people here think the team is fine because they see no flaws in their favorite players that can't be blamed on Hakstol, so firing Hakstol will automatically make this a good team. I disagree, I see a team full of misfit players who don't fit together.

So Fletcher needs to be thinking much deeper, what kind of team am I building, and what potential HCs fit that team - not merely engaging in knee jerk reactions to fan displeasure.

 

[kudymen]

Trading Voráček or Ghost sounds all kinds of not-knee-jerk

 

[flyers0909]

So Fletcher needs to be thinking much deeper, what kind of team am I building, and what potential HCs fit that team - not merely engaging in knee jerk reactions to fan displeasure.

How about a reaction to a team that has obviously given up on the coach? Yes, it will appease the fans, but there are so many issues right now directly relating to coaching. Get this clown out of here and at least get a fresh face in the locker room. This kind of losing, and I mean embarrassing losing, cannot be good for the team as a whole. I don't care if Gordon or Knob suck as well but Hakstol is sucking the life out of this franchise. SOMETHING to distract from this miserable season.

 

[deadhead]

SOMETHING to distract from this miserable season.

What kind of red meat do you prefer?

 

[deadhead]

Trading Voráček or Ghost sounds all kinds of not-knee-jerk

It makes sense if Fletcher looks at this roster, and decides he needs to go into a different direction.
The idea of building a roster isn't getting the most talent, but the right talent that fits together.

Ghost lacks great speed and is undersized, if Fletcher can get a top four veteran RHD who pairs with Sanheim or Provorov and stabilizes the defense, that might be worth trading Ghost. Not just talent, but balancing the pairs, taking pressure off Provorov, and making it easy for Myers to start on the 3rd pair without pressure.

Voracek has been an ugly fit this year, if Fletcher can get a young fast RW to put on Patrick's line and some other assets that can be flipped for help, that might make sense.

JVR makes the 1st line vulnerable to matchups as long as he's paired with G.

Simmonds and Gudas will get you some value, but not core players.

 

[Starat327]

They were dominated in the playoffs under Lavi (2011-12, check the advanced metrics, terrible, just got lucky that MAF melted down in the first round), Berube and Hak. When this happened under three different coaches in four playoff appearances, uh, maybe the problem is more than coaching?

And you can't just change coaches,
St Louis, 5-5-1 under Berube
Chicago, 4-12-3 under Colliton
Kings, 7-12-1 under Desjardins

It's working in Edmonton, but that's the exception.

Coaching changes midstream:
CBJ 2015-16, Richards started 0-7-0, Tortorella 34-33-8
Pens, 2015-16, Johnston 15-10-3, Sullivan 33-16-5 [with major roster changes]
NYI, 2016-17, Capuano 17-17-8, Weight 24-12-4 [100 points the previous year]
NJD, 2014-15, DeBoer 12-17-7, Bench 20-19-7
TB, 2012-13, Boucher 13-18-1, Cooper 5-8-3
Toronto 2014-15, Carlyle 21-16-3, Horachek 9-28-5
Buf, 2012-13, Ruff 6-10-1, Rolston 15-11-5
Buf, 2013-14, Rolston 4-15-1, Nolan 17-36-9
Bos, 2016-17, Julien 26-23-6, Cassidy 18-8-1
Mon, 2016-17, Therrien 31-19-8, Julien 16-7-1
Ottawa, 2014-15, MacLean 11-11-5, Cameron 32-15-8
Fla, 2016-17, Gallant 11-9-1, Rowe 24-27-10
Win, 2013-14, Noel 19-23-5, Maurice 18-12-5
Minn, 2015-16, Yeo 23-22-10, Torchetti 15-11-1
Stl 2016-17, Hitchcock 24-21-5, Yeo 22-8-2 [107 points the previous year]
Edm 2014-15, Eakins 7-19-5, Nelson 17-25-9
Kings 2011-12, Murray 13-12-4, Stevens 2-2, Sutter 25-13-11

Good teams often rebound for two reasons:
1) regression to the mean, a good team on a slow start simply plays up to its talent
2) tuned out the old coach who overstayed his welcome, See Boston/Montreal in 2016-17

Bad teams often fail to rebound, because, well, they were bad.
It also helps to identify the replacement coach before you make the move, that is, either a veteran coach or someone in your organization, instead of a stopgap interim coach out of desperation.

The biggest danger is the interim coach gets a bounceback, you give him a long-term contract, and find out why he was available: Yeo in St Louis, Rolston in Buffalo, Weight with the Islanders

It's working in Edmonton because they brought in a real coach. The other three are almost as bad as Hak.

When that's the basis of your argument, the rest isn't even worth reading.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

What kind of red meat do you prefer?

Salmon is more pink than red, but that is my favorite meat. Thank you for asking.

 

[kudymen]

It makes sense if Fletcher looks at this roster, and decides he needs to go into a different direction.
The idea of building a roster isn't getting the most talent, but the right talent that fits together.

Ghost lacks great speed and is undersized, if Fletcher can get a top four veteran RHD who pairs with Sanheim or Provorov and stabilizes the defense, that might be worth trading Ghost. Not just talent, but balancing the pairs, taking pressure off Provorov, and making it easy for Myers to start on the 3rd pair without pressure.

Voracek has been an ugly fit this year, if Fletcher can get a young fast RW to put on Patrick's line and some other assets that can be flipped for help, that might make sense.

JVR makes the 1st line vulnerable to matchups as long as he's paired with G.

Simmonds and Gudas will get you some value, but not core players.

No matter how many paragraphs, no these moves don't make sense before Hakstok's departure

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hitch's game management: keep David away from Couts, sic him on Giroux at center. So we have a coach telling us that Giroux isn't a 1C, at least defensively.

There's a lot more problems than Hakstol. Anyone who has watched this road trip and thinks just changing coaches will fix this team (we're not Edmonton which just needed some discipline and structure and to play the backup goalie) is a fool. It's time to clean house.

If Fletcher decides this team can't make the playoffs (and I think at this point he'd like to delay until it's so obvious he can't be pushed into a bad trade) look for a serious fire sale at the TDL. At this point, it's time to commit to finishing the rebuild. Hextall tried to have it both ways, now it's time to admit that doesn't work, move out some veterans who've shown they can't win and get some elite young players.

This team is stuck in "tweener ville." It has no identity, below average size, average speed and average skill, and even if they get a bump from a new coach (which they got from Berube in 2013-14, and Hakstol in 2015-16) it won't be sustainable.

It's not like a new coach will make Voracek, JVR, Simmonds or Ghost different players, or elevate Raffl, Laughton, Hagg or Gudas. They are what they are. And it's not good enough. And Weise, MacDonald, Weal and Lehtera aren't the reason this team isn't winning.

We're past "fire the coach." We're at "fire the team."

Oh look now you're scoffing at the notion that Hitchcock is better than Hakstol.


So far you have shown you believe that three of the winningest coaches in NHL history, Q, Trotz, and Hitch, all are no better than Hakstol. And you've repeatedly scoffed at the notion that Sullivan is better.


It proves you're lying when you say you think he's average and that you don't care about him. You clearly think he's the greatest coach in the NHL and you care deeply, to the point of irrational bias.

 

[Starat327]

Oh look now you're scoffing at the notion that Hitchcock is better than Hakstol.


So far you have shown you believe that three of the winningest coaches in NHL history, Q, Trotz, and Hitch, all are no better than Hakstol. And you've repeatedly scoffed at the notion that Sullivan is better.


It proves you're lying when you say you think he's average and that you don't care about him. You clearly think he's the greatest coach in the NHL and you care deeply, to the point of irrational bias.

It's honestly gettinf to the point where it's not even fun anymore.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I am not a Hitchcock fan, but I would of had no problem bringing him here and make Hakstol walk back to North Dakota.
Hitch has more coaching knowledge in his pinky than Hakstol does in his whole sad body.

off topic. Hey HF pinky is a word.