Value of: 2C to Col.

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Nobody wins the cup with a single line. Having 100 point MacKinnon at 1C and 80-90 point Rantanen at 2C is scary.

Current roster is not and single line is easy to deal with. Look at EDM for example.

Your Wild couldn't shut them down...


Nor could literally every other team in the league this year up until Tampa Bay last night(And they still didn't really shut them down, just got a fortunate Off-Sides call).


And again last year, 97 and 84 point seasons would suggest they weren't very easy to deal with at all.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Duchy is better at RW though. Ottawa just doesn't have the depth to use him there.

Honestly, what proven #2C is available other than Duchene? Are the Aves willing to pay the same price they got for trading Duchene... even if there was a equal talent with some term out there?

 

[CobraAcesS]

Honestly, what proven #2C is available other than Duchene? Are the Aves willing to pay the same price they got for trading Duchene... even if there was a equal talent with some term out there?

If we're not adding a clear cut #1C (the only way that happens is if we luck into Hughes) I think most of us want a more well rounded player.

 

[Meeqs]

Come on buddy, don't be that guy.

By that guy do you mean realistic?

 

[cgf]

Honestly, what proven #2C is available other than Duchene? Are the Aves willing to pay the same price they got for trading Duchene... even if there was a equal talent with some term out there?

None are available, but I’d offer something like Ottawa pick + Kerfoot/Kaut + Andrighetto + Timmins; if someone like Trocheck or Draisaitl suddenly became available later in the year to let us roll into the postseason with:

Landy - MacK - Rantanen
Jost - Trocheck* - Kerfoot
Calvert - Soda - Compher
Nieto - Kamenev - Wilson
( Bourque / Dano / Greer )

Girard - Johnson
Zadorov - Barrie
Ian Cole - Makar
( Nemeth / Meloche )

Varlamov
Grubauer
( Francouz )

*Draisaitl


And over the summer something like Barrie + Kerfoot/Kaut + Andrighetto + COL 1st; could make sense to dangle...depending on how the draft, FA, & extension talks, go.

 

[Meeqs]

None are available, but I’d offer something like Ottawa pick + Kerfoot/Kaut + Andrighetto + Timmins; if someone like Trocheck or Draisaitl suddenly became available later in the year to let us role into the postseason with:

Landy - MacK - Rantanen
Jost - Draisaitl - Compher
Nieto - Soderberg - Calvert
Bourque - Kamenev - Wilson
( Dano / Kaut / Greer )

Girard - EJ
Zads - Barrie
Cole - Makar
( Nemeth / Meloche )

Varlamov
Grubauer
( Francouz )


And over the summer something like Barrie + Kerfoot/Kaut + Andrighetto + COL 1st; could make sense to dangle...depending on how the draft, FA, & extension talks, go.

At least until we know its final position, Otts 1st is likely worth more than any player the Avs would be getting in return. Especially guys like Trochek and Drais.

Outside of unrealistic fun, that pick shouldn't be used in any deals as assets like that are never moved.

 

[Meeqs]

Honestly, what proven #2C is available other than Duchene? Are the Aves willing to pay the same price they got for trading Duchene... even if there was a equal talent with some term out there?

The most likely solution will be one of the kids in this years upcoming draft that is stacked with good centers where the Avs hold 2 1sts.

We should also note that the Duchene deal was incredibly one sided and even he wouldn't get half of the return he got then now.

It is true that top 6 centers aren't often available which is why this thread is somewhat interesting to read but ultimately wont likely lead to much.

 

[cgf]

At least until we know its final position, Otts 1st is likely worth more than any player the Avs would be getting in return. Especially guys like Trochek and Drais.

Outside of unrealistic fun, that pick shouldn't be used in any deals as assets like that are never moved.

If that pick can be used to anchor a package for a young star Center like Drae or Tro, to open up our cup window this year, then even if that pick ends up Hughes or Kakko it'd be worth it. MacK's prime and cheap contract won't last forever, so there's a lot of value in being able to compete for an extra 2 or 3 years.

Especially since the odds of that pick ever being better than either of those Centers, isn't exactly huge.

 

[Meeqs]

Such is life on HF . Fans never want to part with their talent but they sure want another teams talent .
Having said the above there are some very fair posters on here . Not a lot but a few from each team .

The bigger issue here is fans make incorrect assumptions that teams have equal values assets. Some teams have 10x more valuable pieces that could be moved and some teams have practically none. While the issue that a good amount of fans don't have enough of an understanding of teams to make a proper analysis we should note that certain players being off limits doesn't mean there aren't plenty of options.

If we look over the past few years and said here are 5 untouchables from EDM, then we'd realize that there is really nothing else of value there. However if we said here are 5 untouchables from TBL then you still have like 8-12 really valuable and impactful players to choose from.

 

[Meeqs]

If that pick can be used to anchor a package for a young star Center like Drae or Tro, to open up our cup window this year, then even if that pick ends up Hughes or Kakko it'd be worth it. MacK's prime and cheap contract won't last forever, so there's a lot of value in being able to compete for an extra 2 or 3 years.

Especially since the odds of that pick ever being better than either of those Centers, isn't exactly huge.

You may feel its worth it, but historically the NHL disagrees with you.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Landy is career 49%. Why write garbage into a good discussion? Should i check the rest?

Landy seems to have been 37% total during his 4 total season. My hunch would be that he did not play a lot of center in the earlier leagues.

Oh my bad, 1% off and it's because of his rookie season. So far off, haha. The only garbage here is the argument Rantanen should be converted to center just because the Avs have a gap there. That's like when Jamie Benn played center before Seguin arrived, it was just forced and not ideal. Should they have been kept on separate lines even when Seguin arrived?

Amongst 175+ game wingers with 100+ draws since 2015 that are still in the league (and excluding players that moonlight as centers like Backes), Hoffman, Landeskog, Rantanen and Williams have the best faceoff percentages and are all over 50%.

 

[cgf]

You may feel its worth it, but historically the NHL disagrees with you.

Nah, NHL history places quite a bit of value on cups.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Again I never said we need to do it now, but over the next 12 months or so we need to do a lot of assessing of roster and adding where necessary.

And I don't disagree with you on that, I just think that trying to figure out who is available at this stage of the process is getting a little ahead of ourselves. We need to take the time to do an honest assessment of the roster first, and then figure out what options are out there once we have a better idea of what we actually have and still need. Figuring out who might be available now is premature if we're still going to spend the rest of the season assessing where we are, because who is potentially available could be drastically different when we're ready to pull the trigger on a trade.

 

[cgf]

And I don't disagree with you on that, I just think that trying to figure out who is available at this stage of the process is getting a little ahead of ourselves. We need to take the time to do an honest assessment of the roster first, and then figure out what options are out there once we have a better idea of what we actually have and still need. Figuring out who might be available now is premature if we're still going to spend the rest of the season assessing where we are, because who is potentially available could be drastically different when we're ready to pull the trigger on a trade.

There's still a lot of questions to answer about individual talents in our organization, but there are some things we can feel pretty confident in planning around: 1) we have an elite top line that can lead a cup winner. 2) we have a strong set of blueliners, even before Makar has been added to the mix. 3) we have an excellent 3C who has lead a great third line for us despite brutal usage. 4) our depth forwards have been excellent on the PK. and 5) we currently have an excellent set of goalies.

So the biggest questions for us other than simple inexperience, will be who joins Kerfoot as a genuine 2nd liner; how long do we have to wait for those kids to form a cup winning 2nd line; and what kind of longterm solutions can be found via FA or trade...especially if our prospects won't solve that hole themselves prior to the 2019-2020 postseason.

For all I know we're going to draft Hughes or Kakko and sign Stone or Panarin to form an elite 2nd line around Kerfoot or Soderberg next season; letting Jost & Kaut load up our third line around the other, with Calvert sliding down to the 4th line with Kamenev and Compher. But with the pace at which Joe does big trades, I want him to be testing the waters now in case all that doesn't quite work out perfectly for us...and if there is a trade that gets us that young star to anchor our 2nd line long-term & open our window now, then why wait? Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the ****ing-amazing.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

There's still a lot of questions to answer about individual talents in our organization, but there are some things we can feel pretty confident in planning around: 1) we have an elite top line that can lead a cup winner. 2) we have a strong set of blueliners, even before Makar has been added to the mix. 3) we have an excellent 3C who has lead a great third line for us despite brutal usage. 4) our depth forwards have been excellent on the PK. and 5) we currently have an excellent set of goalies.

So the biggest questions for us other than simple inexperience, will be who joins Kerfoot as a genuine 2nd liner; how long do we have to wait for those kids to form a cup winning 2nd line; and what kind of longterm solutions can be found via FA or trade...especially if our prospects won't solve that hole themselves prior to the 2019-2020 postseason.

For all I know we're going to draft Hughes or Kakko and sign Stone or Panarin to form an elite 2nd line around Kerfoot or Soderberg next season; letting Jost & Kaut load up our third line around the other, with Calvert sliding down to the 4th line with Kamenev and Compher. But with the pace at which Joe does big trades, I want him to be testing the waters now in case all that doesn't quite work out perfectly for us...and if there is a trade that gets us that young star to anchor our 2nd line long-term & open our window now, then why wait? Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the ****ing-amazing.

I agree with you on our strengths, and I agree with you on the questions facing the team. I think the only place we really differ is our thresholds for when the answer to "how long do we have to wait for those kids to form a cup winning 2nd line" becomes too great to remain patient and stick to the plan of building through the draft, with mine being significantly greater. I'd happily watch this group grow for the rest of this season, see who we can add in the 2019 draft, give them all another year (or at least until the 2019-20 TDL) and make some decisions then. By then, we'll have hopefully seen 200+ games from Compher, Kerfoot and Jost, and should have a much better idea of what we have than we do now.

 

[cgf]

I agree with you on our strengths, and I agree with you on the questions facing the team. I think the only place we really differ is our thresholds for when the answer to "how long do we have to wait for those kids to form a cup winning 2nd line" becomes too great to remain patient and stick to the plan of building through the draft, with mine being significantly greater. I'd happily watch this group grow for the rest of this season, see who we can add in the 2019 draft, give them all another year (or at least until the 2019-20 TDL) and make some decisions then. By then, we'll have hopefully seen 200+ games from Compher, Kerfoot and Jost, and should have a much better idea of what we have than we do now.

If we're not contending next year, then we won't start actually contending until MacK's 25 and Landy is 27...

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'd trade you Danault in the off season if you run out of options. Habs future at center starting next year is Kotkaniemi, Domi, Poehling and Danault can be moved. Not sure Bergevin moves Danault before both Kotkaniemi and Poehling prove that they can carry the future at center though.

Good luck finding a #2C. Your best to draft one!

 

[gwh]

Oh my bad, 1% off and it's because of his rookie season. So far off, haha. The only garbage here is the argument Rantanen should be converted to center just because the Avs have a gap there. That's like when Jamie Benn played center before Seguin arrived, it was just forced and not ideal. Should they have been kept on separate lines even when Seguin arrived?

Amongst 175+ game wingers with 100+ draws since 2015 that are still in the league (and excluding players that moonlight as centers like Backes), Hoffman, Landeskog, Rantanen and Williams have the best faceoff percentages and are all over 50%.

Perhaps you didn't understand the argument: Landy took 5 seasons to reach that. Rantanen was over 50% the 1st season he was in the NHL.

Rantanen is a center that plays wing in the NHL. But hey, why I am teaching you to follow your own players? He is on your team, maybe you should think about looking into the history of your current best player?

 

[slg1963]

Zib for Ottawa`s 1st

 

[Bender]

How's Tyson Jost doing? Thought he had the looks of a 2c.

Overall, for a 20 year old that's been asked to anchor a 2nd line, I think Tyson Jost has performed admirably well. He's been good defensively which is usually where these young guys struggle early on in their careers when you put them in that type of situation. (even Ryan O'Reilly was brought along as a #3C for his first 2 years behind Stastny and Duchene)

Jost hasn't had ideal teammates with Kerfoot who's a good player but more of a playmaker and Wilson who's more of a depth player with limited offensive abilities. He's struggled the past 3-4 games after having a strong first 5-6 games to his season which isn't unusual for a 20 year old. The skating 'issues' that many Avs fans point to is blown out of proportions in my opinion...our team is pretty fast so if a guy is only 'average' it tends to stand out a bit but he's not horrible like many people seem to think. If Jost is a horrible skater then so is Paul Stastny & Carl Soderberg because he's definitely on par with those guys.

I have no doubt that Jost is going to get there and become an excellent #2C as long as Avs management are patient with him unlike a certain portion of the fanbase.

I don't get why so many Avs fans are so impatient when it comes to letting our youngster develop. Jost is still only 20. Kerfoot is still only a 2nd year player, as is Compher. MacKinnon just turned 23. Rantanen is 22. On top of that, Sakic keeps talking about how he wants the youngsters to step up and grow into roles. What's the rush?

I think people see the top line and how well they are doing and can only start to imagine 'what if'...and then you get some fans who are maybe a bit impatient. It's understandable but as it stands right now, I'm with you. Stay patient and stay the course. The team is winning right now...let's ride it out until we're not.

I will say that I do believe that there will be a major acquisition at some point because there are probably too many pieces competing for the same spots but I don't think that will come until later on.

 

[EdAVSfan]

What’s most important is for the Avs to not be one extreme or the other. Don’t force the issue to go and get a 2nd line solution.
But don’t also bury your head in the sand.

The Avs may very well know exactly what type of player they want in a 2C role. If that exact player becomes available, don’t just close your eyes.

Just because you’re satisfied with where you currently are, do any mean you should abandon all potential avenues to improve. Do any mean you should overspend either.

The Avs have time to properly assess. Use that time, but keep your eyes and ears open at the same time to jump if an opportunity arises.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Whoa you’re sending a time machine back too!

In all reality Kesler from like 4 years ago would be the ideal 2C for us.

Obviously a moot point, but the time machine would only need to go back half that far. Kesler was second to Bergeron in Selke voting in 2016-17.

 

[HC7]

Kadri for Timmins and a pick.

 

[Foppberg]

Realistically who's available? Doesn't seem like any high quality #2C is readily available like there has been in years past (Duchene, ROR, Johansen, Turris, etc)

Personally I'd love a guy like Horvat, but no chance he's available.

 

[hooverdam]

Kadri for Timmins and a pick.

Done. Have your people call my people.