Post-Game Talk: #29 | Flyers at Coyotes | December 11, 2022 | The Arena Has A Mullett | 7:00 PM ET

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, it's not like Ghost was hemmed in because of Ghost. He was hemmed in because he would make breakout passes to guys who would then turn the puck over.

 

[deadhead]

I ignore the first ten games, it's obvious the whole team had no idea what they were doing - the dramatic upsurge after that point suggests they finally got on the same page.

Risto has been solid since he returned to the lineup, not great, never going to live up to his contract or the assets traded for him, but he's playing better, using his stick more, not getting out of position as much and so on. He's a work in progress, in terms of just playing basic fundamental defense and not being a total liability. I'll be happy if he can continue to play like he has, he'll make his share of mistakes but he's not a defensive black hole like Provorov - TDA.

Provorov - ???
Sanheim - York
Seeler - Risto

I don't know what you do about Provorov - TDA. They've been a disaster so far. Nor is Provorov - Risto an answer.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ah yes, the dramatic upsurge. Such an upsurge it's been.

Meanwhile they're systemically settling into being a less talented version of the 2010s Rangers while the rest of the league is specializing in offense that victimizes that kind of play.

Risto has been shit.

 

[flyerslducks]

you dont pay a 10 year vet 5 million because he is a work in progress

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Provy Ghost was apparently a problem.
Provy Risto is a problem.
Provy TDA is a problem.
Provy Sanheim didn't work
Provy York didn't work.

Man, if only there was a common denominator in all of these...

 

[renberg]

I ignore the first ten games, it's obvious the whole team had no idea what they were doing - the dramatic upsurge after that point suggests they finally got on the same page.

Risto has been solid since he returned to the lineup, not great, never going to live up to his contract or the assets traded for him, but he's playing better, using his stick more, not getting out of position as much and so on. He's a work in progress, in terms of just playing basic fundamental defense and not being a total liability. I'll be happy if he can continue to play like he has, he'll make his share of mistakes but he's not a defensive black hole like Provorov - TDA.

Provorov - ???
Sanheim - York
Seeler - Risto

I don't know what you do about Provorov - TDA. They've been a disaster so far. Nor is Provorov - Risto an answer.

Here we are again with Provorov. He’s failed to mesh with too many partners. It’s past time to move on before he loses too much value.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I mean Provorov shouldn't be asked to carry Risto, but instead of tanking his value further playing him alongside that guy they should just...fire Fletcher and trade Provorov.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I chuckled as I watched ASU trying to play modern offense. Hitting/attempting drops and horizontal passes to sustain rushes up the middle instead of just quitting on them to the perimeter as the default, trying to circle back to the top of the slot to rush in again on the cycle. Succeeding at it at times. Fighting to generate offense instead of fighting to be fighting on the boards.

I was told that you cannot run that offense without talent, and here we have a roster severely lacking in talent running it. Meanwhile Philly is back in 2012, their organizational Safe Space resembling the DPE, a period where all the Cronies were last relevant. That's great. In the Arizona games I've watched, they're the more fun team to observe. Amazing.

I never thought after years of dreadful hockey in the 2010s that they would be the more entertaining and interesting offensive team, but now they are. The Cronyarchy has really achieved something. Hiring Tortorella and telling him to turn back the clock a decade is the cherry on top of all their crimes against the sport.

 

[freakydallas13]

I wonder what contrarian posts would look like if they were 50% as charitable towards Ghost as they are towards the legend that is Fist0lainen.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Provy Ghost was apparently a problem.
Provy Risto is a problem.
Provy TDA is a problem.
Provy Sanheim didn't work
Provy York didn't work.

Man, if only there was a common denominator in all of these...

Provy Braun sucked. Provy Niskanen was a disaster for longer than it was good.

 

[deadhead]

I chuckled as I watched ASU trying to play modern offense. Hitting/attempting drops and horizontal passes to sustain rushes up the middle instead of just quitting on them to the perimeter as the default, trying to circle back to the top of the slot to rush in again on the cycle. Succeeding at it at times. Fighting to generate offense instead of fighting to be fighting on the boards.

I was told that you cannot run that offense without talent, and here we have a roster severely lacking in talent running it. Meanwhile Philly is back in 2012, their organizational Safe Space resembling the DPE, a period where all the Cronies were last relevant. That's great. In the Arizona games I've watched, they're the more fun team to observe. Amazing.

I never thought after years of dreadful hockey in the 2010s that they would be the more entertaining and interesting offensive team, but now they are. The Cronyarchy has really achieved something. Hiring Tortorella and telling him to turn back the clock a decade is the cherry on top of all their crimes against the sport.

Ah yes, that great Arizona scheme, FLyers 14-10 in HD chances, 31-21 in scoring chances.
Of course, Flyers are far more talented than Zona with forwards like Brown, MacEwen, Deslauriers.
So they're able to overcome Torts' backwards scheme, while Zona can't do much with their more sophisticated offense.

Say, I got a bridge I can sell ya . . .

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ah yes, that great Arizona scheme, FLyers 14-10 in HD chances, 31-21 in scoring chances.
Of course, Flyers are far more talented than Zona with forwards like Brown, MacEwen, Deslauriers.
So they're able to overcome Torts' backwards scheme, while Zona can't do much with their more sophisticated offense.

Say, I got a bridge I can sell ya . . .

You didn't address what I was saying, of course, which is that Arizona manages to be more forward-thinking than the Flyers with far less talent.

Which may be why Arizona has been more productive than Philly so far this season. With far less talent, as you pointed out. Thanks for teeing that up.

 

[Magua]

"I ignore 10 games samples that don't make my opinions work."

This isn't an honest argument, so I'm all set.

 

[deadhead]

Arizona at 5x5, 41 GF, 58 GA
Philly at 5x5, 47 GF, 55 GA

"Which may be why Arizona has been more productive than Philly so far this season."

Say what, Jack?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Arizona at 5x5, 41 GF, 58 GA
Philly at 5x5, 47 GF, 55 GA

"Which may be why Arizona has been more productive than Philly so far this season."

Say what, Jack?

Now check out games played. Gee, I wonder why you left out the 3 fewer games played which would bring Arizona within 1 goal at current rates? With far less talent, as you pointed out.

Also, did you know that PP goals count? It's true! I wonder why a far less talented squad with a more forward-thinking offense is more productive on the PP than a more talented squad that loathes offense?

You're on a sinking ship. A ship that is sinking because the crew tried to ram through a rock instead of going around it. And you're defending the crew and their decisions.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Imagine in 2022 comparing who is worse at something, Arizona or the Flyers.

And the convo being kind of realistic, in the sense that both teams are very much in the same tier currently.

Those BSB boys sure know how to build a good product

 

[deadhead]

Now check out games played. Gee, I wonder why you left out the 3 fewer games played which would bring Arizona within 1 goal at current rates? With far less talent, as you pointed out.

Also, did you know that PP goals count? It's true! I wonder why a far less talented squad with a more forward-thinking offense is more productive on the PP than a more talented squad that loathes offense?

You're on a sinking ship. A ship that is sinking because the crew tried to ram through a rock instead of going around it. And you're defending the crew and their decisions.

You were talking about better offensive schemes, not PP. Get your fantasies straight.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You were talking about better offensive schemes, not PP. Get your fantasies straight.

PP is part of offensive scheme, dude. Come on. This is ridiculous. You have nothing to stand on here. You know that, though, which is why you just tried to pull a fast one with raw totals while ignoring GP and PP, which is a pretty important piece of offensive production.

 

[deadhead]

PP is part of offensive scheme, dude. Come on. This is ridiculous. You have nothing to stand on here.

PP is totally different than 5 on 5 play. Which is why some great 5x5 teams were mediocre on the PP and vice versa.

 

[Beef Invictus]

PP is totally different than 5 on 5 play. Which is why some great 5x5 teams were mediocre on the PP and vice versa.

My point is that a poor offensively schemed team is likely to scheme a poor PP too. A staff that can't manage to figure out how to score with a man advantage isn't likely to figure out how to score at even strength; a thing I pointed out months ago when observing that Tortorella teams strongly tend to fall well short of expected GF while being crap on the PP, there's a poor offensive mind at work. And we are watching that in real time as a far less talented Arizona roster runs a better offensive scheme that allows their far less talented squad to keep pace at 5v5, and their better offensive approach lets them flat-out beat us down at PP%.

Sinking ship. You need not go down on it while endlessly singing praises of the crew who are currently punching more holes in the hull to punish it for failing after they crashed it.

 

[deadhead]

CBJ
2016-17 xGF 168 GF 168
2017-18 xGF 184, GF 169
2018-19 xGF 187, GF 187
2019-20 xGF 141, GF 125
2020-21 xGF 102, GF 94

Scheme doesn't seem to be the problem, but talent. When his best scorers were allowed to walk, gee whiz, CBJ struggled to score.
xGF reflects your ability to create scoring chances, GF is how you actually finish those chances.
That's what we see this year, too many players are either inexperienced (often takes a couple years to learn how to finish plays) or just lack the hands and shots to score.

 

[Magua]

Tortorella happily voices that he doesn't scheme anything in the offensive zone.

 

[Larry44]

at the end of the season, when a lot of teams stop playing hard, they will start a hot streak like other seasons before. Maybe Risto injure himself and without him we win more game easily.

MaximumPain

We need Risto healthy. And Hayes.

 

[Beef Invictus]

CBJ
2016-17 xGF 168 GF 168
2017-18 xGF 184, GF 169
2018-19 xGF 187, GF 187
2019-20 xGF 141, GF 125
2020-21 xGF 102, GF 94

Scheme doesn't seem to be the problem, but talent. When his best scorers were allowed to walk, gee whiz, CBJ struggled to score.
xGF reflects your ability to create scoring chances, GF is how you actually finish those chances.
That's what we see this year, too many players are either inexperienced (often takes a couple years to learn how to finish plays) or just lack the hands and shots to score.

Scheme is obviously part of the problem since his offenses have routinely been below average or bad even with talent. You know, when you stop cherrypicking and look at his whole career. Which you should do since the Flyers aren't asking him to be more forward thinking like CBJ did, they're without a doubt begging him to give them the Rangers.

Did you know that lack of talent AND scheme can both be problems? And that poor outdated scheme can make the talent problem worse? Which is how they end up being nearly equivalent to a far less talented roster?

There is no ground where you can shift the goalposts where your defenses work.

 

[Rebels57]

"I ignore 10 games samples that don't make my opinions work."

This isn't an honest argument, so I'm all set.

Has there ever been one?