OT: 2024 Washington Commanders off-season thread: change we can believe in!

[CapitalsCupReality]

It's not about discrediting. It's about considering the merit of the viewpoint. You're quick to regurgitate every source that agrees with you, even though some of them aren't worth your or anyone else's time.

I share info from legit media outlets for people to read…to form their own opinion….If there were reputable articles that rank Maye ahead of JD they would be posted if I saw them in Apple News….….the articles are what they are. Most of the time I post the link here and read the article later anyway….as I did with @kicksavedave earlier….I hadn’t even read the rankings before he asked for the cliff notes….

in this instance….Gruden should have zero credibility for any Washington fan who watched his tenure here (and his subsequent career after)…

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Haven’t read any of this but just for the record, I want Maye and it’s not particularly close. The idea of taking Daniels because he’s more NFL ready and fits a KK offense better is nuts to me. They *may* have a chance of making the playoffs this year if a lot goes right for them but I want the guy who can give them a chance to win every game for the next decade. Kingsbury will likely be gone in two seasons as will 50%+ of the current roster, so taking a QB because he can make off-schedule plays with his legs next year seems a bit shortsighted to me.

If they think Daniels will be better over the next decade then ok but if the hype on Daniels is that he can make plays next year I’m a hard no on that.

 

[Ajax1995]

Then shuffle the F along and don’t read it.

You and I can agree to disagree Doobie Gruden and his credibility…

Just so I understand, if Gruden’s 30+ years of coaching experience, 15 of it at the NFL level, doesn’t provide credibility for his opinion, why are Riddick’s, Simms’ and Daniel’s opinions credible?

I understand that Gruden wasn’t the best head coach in the world here, but so what? Were you enamored with Riddick’s work as the director of pro personnel here for 3 seasons? And Simms 1 year in coaching provides credibility for you? And Daniel’s no experience at all coaching or anything besides playing does what for you exactly?

I don’t think you are being intellectually honest but maybe TV talking head and/or podcast host / YouTube video maker carries extreme weight in your opinion?

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Please keep the personal stuff out of it. It’s not hard — critique the post, not the poster.

 

[ynotcaps]

Please keep the personal stuff out of it. It’s not hard — critique the post, not the poster.

Does that apply to a Nathaniel Rateliff and the Night Sweats concert poster? What if it's signed by Nathaniel Rateliff? And ALL the Night Sweats?

 

[John Price]

I'd go but commanders field is like 90 minutes away and with work the next day...

 

[ynotcaps]

View attachment 850364

I'd go but commanders field is like 90 minutes away and with work the next day...

Is it just me, or is the idea that Pierre Garcon and Jordan Reed now qualify as "Washington Legends" sad?

Nice players, seem like good guys. But, uh, "legends?"...

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Haven’t read any of this but just for the record, I want Maye and it’s not particularly close. The idea of taking Daniels because he’s more NFL ready and fits a KK offense better is nuts to me. They *may* have a chance of making the playoffs this year if a lot goes right for them but I want the guy who can give them a chance to win every game for the next decade. Kingsbury will likely be gone in two seasons as will 50%+ of the current roster, so taking a QB because he can make off-schedule plays with his legs next year seems a bit shortsighted to me.

If they think Daniels will be better over the next decade then ok but if the hype on Daniels is that he can make plays next year I’m a hard no on that.

I’ve seen some mentions of JD being more ready sure. I have NOT seen anyone legit saying that’s what they should base their selection on. In fact most are going out of their wait to say this is NOT about who is more ready now.

If DM is the better longterm pick, I hope they pick him. I’m already onboard as saying they should sit DM a year and nobody should feel rushed to start him just because he’s an early pick.

Is it just me, or is the idea that Pierre Garcon and Jordan Reed now qualify as "Washington Legends" sad?

Nice players, seem like good guys. But, uh, "legends?"...

Apparently Jay Gruden is a legend also…

 

[Ajax1995]

Lou Riddick, Warner have credibility…

Why?

 

[ynotcaps]

I’ve seen some mentions of JD being more ready sure. I have NOT seen anyone legit saying that’s what they should base their selection on. In fact most are going out of their wait to say this is NOT about who is more ready now.

If DM is the better longterm pick, I hope they pick him. I’m already onboard as saying they should sit DM a year and nobody should feel rushed to start him just because he’s an early pick.



Apparently Jay Gruden is a legend also…

Yeah, I think it's a false narrative that JD's main value is immediacy -- the list of attributes from Bowen the other day (start the countdown on "who the hell is Matt Bowen to say?" chorus) suggests the he's not only ready, but he rates highest on traits that suggest long-term success. You don't "forget" field-vision, decision-making, accuracy, and passing mechanics.

Unbelievable that the fact the guy has learned these skills and will bring them to the league with him (as opposed to having to learn/develop them) is somehow interpreted as "he's too old and is at his ceiling." Realistically, it should be more like, "hey, imagine how much better a guy who's proven he can improve with good coaching can do when his coaching steps up another level."

But I'm probably not credible because I'm just some guy posting about football on a hockey web site. (But I may be the only one who fits that description, lol.)

 

[Neil Racki]

Gruden knows football and was/is a good OC .. just never had a defense that could cover for his lack of "leadership" and setting a standard

Any HC here was never ever going to be able to overcome the dollar budget medlding owner and lacky GMs ...

-------------

Jordan Reed and Pierre arent "legends" .. but its nice the team is doing some fan interaction w STH for the draft .. Im sure it cost Harris some money that he could have just kept.

Isnt this what we wanted?

Not sure if Im sour grapes today .. or the world.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Why?

Do you watch a lot of NFL/Sports TV shows? These two are among the most widely respected there are…so yes in terms of making an informed opinion, they’re in the mix for me along with others…Dan Orlovsky, Tannenbaum…I assume you want them totally discredited also?

It’s pretty much your standard MO to attack the source rather than the topic when I post ANY article…so why do you care that I didn’t respect Gruden’s opinion?

 

[Neil Racki]

I like to put opinions in a jar and weigh them.

 

[EroCaps]

Repost from @Cush:
Among QBs, Jayden Ranks the best in the following

Most Accurate
Field Vision
Decision Making
Passing Mechanics
Scrambler

Maye:
Drive Thrower
Designed Rusher

JJ:
Pocket Mobility

You're not credible because you trash every opinion (and their sources) that don't treat Maye as a sure-fire QB God, you raise strawmen "I have a strong opinion you don't share?" "I go against the crowd?" while you ignore direct quotes from your own mouth (or at least don't own up to them in your "Why pick on me?" posts.) You are the only person here -- the only one -- saying that somebody else is "a sucker pick," Drafting him would be a "fire-able offense."

You're not getting heat because you're arguing against the main (which is, itself arguable, it seems a pretty even split of die-hards, with the majority in the "lean one way or another but could still be swayed), rather it's because you throw shit that everyone can see and then you claim you're not throwing shit.

(Oh, yeah -- you're also not credible because you think a guy that a former NFL Safety who gets paid to evaluate pros and prospects says ranks highest in 4 traits that are critical to high-level QB play is a 'a sucker bet' -- or that, somehow, you're a better evaluator of talent than a formal NFL Safety who gets paid to evaluate pros and prospects.)

Former NFL players and scouts are super wrong about this stuff with frequency.

They got it wrong on Herbert, Mahomes, Rodgers, Hurts, etc.

My opinion is based on the career trajectory and history of players with play styles of Daniels and Maye.

It’s definitely possible Daniels goes on to win a Super Bowl but it’ll certainly break decades worth of trends.

And if it happens no one will be happier than your boy. I’ll buy a Daniels jersey and eat a whole murder of crow.

 

[Ajax1995]

Do you watch a lot of NFL/Sports TV shows? These two are among the most widely respected there are…so yes in terms of making an informed opinion, they’re in the mix for me along with others…Dan Orlovsky, Tannenbaum…I assume you want them totally discredited also?

It’s pretty much your standard MO to attack the source rather than the topic when I post ANY article…so why do you care that I didn’t respect Gruden’s opinion?

So your argument is that they are on TV? Whatever. There is absolutely no accountability for any of these talking heads. When they are wrong, which they often are, nobody says a word and everyone just moves on. But I’m fine if you consider them authorities and have no problem moving on. Agree to disagree.

 

[John Price]

eveyrone has a mock draft these days

that said most of them have JD going to Washington and that is nearly the universal consensus. of course washington hasn't said shit but I would be surprised if it was not JD

you can't really go wrong with either one

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Who is to say Maye hasn't spent the last 4 months working on his footwork? That's not the hardest skill to work on and develop. And he could be much better come week 1 almost 9 months removed from his last UNC game.
Worst case with picking Maye is he sits for some amount a time and we suck again and get a another high pick to use on a top tackle to protect Maye.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

So your argument is that they are on TV? Whatever. There is absolutely no accountability for any of these talking heads. When they are wrong, which they often are, nobody says a word and everyone just moves on. But I’m fine if you consider them authorities and have no problem moving on. Agree to disagree.

You seem to have an argument, I don’t.

Accountability….that’s laughable in the Sports talk world and you know it.

Who is to say Maye hasn't spent the last 4 months working on his footwork? That's not the hardest skill to work on and develop. And he could be much better come week 1 almost 9 months removed from his last UNC game.
Worst case with picking Maye is he sits for some amount a time and we suck again and get an another high pick to use on a top tackle to protect Maye.

I suggested this weeks ago….if they draft DM, sit him a year and get another top-10 pick next year to build around him.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I suggested this weeks ago….if they draft DM, sit him a year and get another top-10 pick next year to build around him.

What is starting to scare me about JD is his comps to Justin Fields. I can really see JD just turning into him. Just an average passing QB who can run around. Fields wasn't a bust but didn't do much to make the bears better and ended up with 4th round trade value.

 

[kicksavedave]

you can't really go wrong with either one

Oh they can definitely go wrong with either one. Despite all the scouting in the world, QBs bust most of the time. The 2nd overall pick has a really high bust rate. There's lot of ways this could go wrong, and I'm an optimist about this staff. Just saying, its not a gimme.

Worst case with picking Maye is he sits for some amount a time and we suck again and get a another high pick to use on a top tackle to protect Maye.

Again, that's not remotely the worst case. The worse case is his accuracy problems magnify under NFL pressure against NFL defenses which disguise coverages much better than college, he struggles like so many highly drafted QBs do, and he becomes a complete bust. The same worst case applies to JD.

I wish this was a "can't lose" scenario we have, but its entirely possible, even likely, that we don't pick the right guy, and again, I believe in this FO. Its just such an inexact science, picking "potential".

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

What is starting to scare me about JD is his comps to Justin Fields. I can really see JD just turning into him. Just an average passing QB who can run around. Fields wasn't a bust but didn't do much to make the bears better and ended up with 4th round trade value.

I heard/read that yesterday and it scared the shit out of me….Feels like JD is a much better passer though….but maybe not.

 

[kicksavedave]

What is starting to scare me about JD is his comps to Justin Fields. I can really see JD just turning into him. Just an average passing QB who can run around. Fields wasn't a bust but didn't do much to make the bears better and ended up with 4th round trade value.

JD is a much better passer than Fields.

 

[ynotcaps]

Former NFL players and scouts are super wrong about this stuff with frequency.

They got it wrong on Herbert, Mahomes, Rodgers, Hurts, etc.

My opinion is based on the career trajectory and history of players with play styles of Daniels and Maye.

It’s definitely possible Daniels goes on to win a Super Bowl but it’ll certainly break decades worth of trends.

It’s definitely possible Daniels goes on to win a Super Bowl but it’ll certainly break decades worth of trends.

"Former NFL players and scouts are super wrong about this stuff with frequency."

Yup. None of them has ever gotten everything right. I think it's more about looking for consensus among the folks who are in position to know best what they're talking about than focusing on one or two particular guys -- they're all right sometime and all wrong other times. In that vein, yes, I consider Gruden and T. Hasselbeck and other pros who have come out as preferring Maye as valid sources. And I don't put stock in guys who haven't played or worked in the game who support JD. One of the recent videos was based on a guy who graduated college in 2019, didn't play football, and is the "Technology and Lead CFB writer" for his site. I don't remember who he preferred -- probably because I don't care. I've watched more football in my life than he has. A lot more. (Am I an old prick? Probably. Doesn't mean I'm not right sometimes.)

"My opinion is based on the career trajectory and history of players with play styles of Daniels and Maye."

I hear you. But I think there's a tendency to compare JD to QBs whose dominant skill-set was running. You and others have cited Vick, Hurts and Lamar specifically -- none of whom had exhibited the pure quarterbacking skillsets that JD has developed. He's been described as "Jalen Hurts if Hurts could read a defense" and "Lamar, but who can pass."

As for Vick, he was a RB who took snaps. Here are Vick's college stats:

		Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
1999	Virginia Tech	Big East		QB	10	90	152	59.2	1840	12.1	12.2	12	5	180.4
2000	Virginia Tech	Big East	SO	QB	10	87	161	54.0	1234	7.7	7.0	8	6	127.4
Career	Virginia Tech					177	313	56.5	3074	9.8	9.5	20	11	153.1

Yes it was Va. Tech and a different era, but 56.5 completion percentage and 313 ATTs over 2 seasons say he wasn't really a QB -- and his coaches didn't expect him to be.

"It’s definitely possible Daniels goes on to win a Super Bowl but it’ll certainly break decades worth of trends."
Could be. But that would be relative to QBs who are closer in skillset to JD than the examples above. Mahomes doesn't match the profile of championship QBs any more than JD does. Not saying that JD is the next Mahomes -- don't know if the "next Mahomes" has been born yet -- just saying that the comparitors matter.

"It’s definitely possible Daniels goes on to win a Super Bowl but it’ll certainly break decades worth of trends."
Likewise if the scenario above is replaced with Maye. (Though the jersey purchase is dependent on returning to our traditional colors and a more traditional design than the current 8th grader-playing-with-design-programs sets -- that applies no matter who they pick.)

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Who is to say Maye hasn't spent the last 4 months working on his footwork? That's not the hardest skill to work on and develop. And he could be much better come week 1 almost 9 months removed from his last UNC game.
Worst case with picking Maye is he sits for some amount a time and we suck again and get a another high pick to use on a top tackle to protect Maye.

If so, I feel like that would have been getting press like JD and his VR training….his camp certainly wouldn’t keep quiet about them attempting to correct his biggest perceived weakness.

 

[ynotcaps]

Gruden knows football and was/is a good OC .. just never had a defense that could cover for his lack of "leadership" and setting a standard

Any HC here was never ever going to be able to overcome the dollar budget medlding owner and lacky GMs ...

-------------

Jordan Reed and Pierre arent "legends" .. but its nice the team is doing some fan interaction w STH for the draft .. Im sure it cost Harris some money that he could have just kept.

Isnt this what we wanted?

Not sure if Im sour grapes today .. or the world.

Totally agreed on the positivity of the new regime and the gesture -- that was more me taking a shot at the level of expectation that came with the previous regime. (Because I haven't mentioned it lately, I feel like here is where I have to say, "F*** Dan Snyder with a bison d***.")

What is starting to scare me about JD is his comps to Justin Fields. I can really see JD just turning into him. Just an average passing QB who can run around. Fields wasn't a bust but didn't do much to make the bears better and ended up with 4th round trade value.

I don't think Fields was at the same level as a passer that JD is. If those comps start bothering you too much, look at the comps that say "Stroud, but who can run."