Proposal: 2024 1st overall Pick to Montréal

[dgibb10]

No, PP points just don't count, we all learned that when fans of other teams patiently explained how Monahan sucked and couldn't be worth more than a 4th rounder.

There are 3 facets of a game

The PP
Even Strength
and the PK

I judge them seperately.

I look and see, is this player having a positive impact in each area and how much of an impact are they having

Imo, being bad on the PP, bad at even strength, and bad on the PK does not provide value. I'd rather have a guy who's simply a quality even strength player.

Note that I don't DISCREDIT players for being below average on a special teams units. They simply do not get credit over someone not given that opportunity.

It is about value.

If you are out there on the power play thats at 15%, what value is that providing to help a team win?
Same as if you're on a penalty kill that gets scored on 25% of the time, what value is that providing to help a team win?

 

[dgibb10]

Apparently PP points counts only for players on teams who’s PP are average or better. I didn’t realize that was a rule. Will check at end of season to see if NHL adjusts the Habs point totals!


Haven’t been saying what ? Try to make a coherent argument. I will help if you can give some details…

The points still count.

But for example, when I'm trying to compare, let's use an example Alexis Lafreniere vs Juraj Slafkovsky. That's one that is thrown out a lot.

The Habs PP is at 17%.
The rangers PP clicks at a massive 26%

That rangers PP is elite, and there is no room on PP1 for Alexis Lafreniere.
He'd certainly play PP1 on the habs for example, and Slaf wouldn't on the Rangers

Does simply getting the opportunity to rack up points in a favourable situation make Slafkovsky a more valuable hockey player? Not really.

So what are you saying? That All Habs players that contribute to a PP are bad players? That their PP points don’t count? They must be deducted from their points totals?

LOL. Bitterness is unhealthy dude. Thats a really dumb argument.

Suzuki is a 1C. Period! He has produced 1C production.

I agree that Suzuki is a 1C. His defensive results are very impressive, as is his even strength contribution.

I don't give him much credit for racking up points on a below average power play tho.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

The points still count.

But for example, when I'm trying to compare, let's use an example Alexis Lafreniere vs Juraj Slafkovsky. That's one that is thrown out a lot.

The Habs PP is at 17%.
The rangers PP clicks at a massive 26%

That rangers PP is elite, and there is no room on PP1 for Alexis Lafreniere.
He'd certainly play PP1 on the habs for example, and Slaf wouldn't on the Rangers

Does simply getting the opportunity to rack up points in a favourable situation make Slafkovsky a more valuable hockey player? Not really.


I agree that Suzuki is a 1C. His defensive results are very impressive, as is his even strength contribution.

I don't give him much credit for racking up points on a below average power play tho.

You are rehashing the same flawed and tired argument. That argument backfires when you consider Nemec is in the top4 of a terrible non playoff team because of an injury to Hamilton. Does that detract from Nemec’s accomplishments?

Of course not.

Slaf if he was a NYR, may play himself onto one of the top2 lines or PP. and produce at a higher rate playing with elite players like Panarin. We won’t know but you can’t dismiss it!

 

[Gustave]

San Jose should not do that

Habs say yes to that I reckon.

 

[Chainshot]

No one is trading out of 1OA.

 

[dgibb10]

You are rehashing the same flawed and tired argument. That argument backfires when you consider Nemec is in the top4 of a terrible non playoff team because of an injury to Hamilton. Does that detract from Nemec’s accomplishments?

Of course not.

Slaf if he was a NYR, may play himself onto one of the top2 lines or PP. and produce at a higher rate playing with elite players like Panarin. We won’t know but you can’t dismiss it!

Again, you miss the point entirely, reading comprehension truly is a struggle.

The PP went from Anderson-Monahan (with anderson being arguably the least productive PP guy in the league) to Newhook-Slafkovsky, and did not meaningfully improve.

Therefore, based on that, and again a bottom 8 power play in the league, I do not believe Juraj Slafkovsky provides significant value on the power play, any more than a guy like Jake Evans provides on the penalty kill.

If you believe the value juraj Slafkovsky provides on the PK is significant, then we really have to talk about the value Suzuki and Caufield are having on the PP. I have been giving them a significant portion of the positive credit, with very little going to any of the swapped around pieces like Dach,Newhook,Monahan,Anderson,Slafkovsky, and none to Mike Matheson.

I DO NOT BELIEVE A PLAYER SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR SIMPLY EXISTING ON A SPECIAL TEAMS UNIT.

If you are providing value to a unit, whether by being a cog in a top unit, a driver for a mediocre unit, or a singular guy stopping a PP from being the worst in the league, that provides value.

So then we go to 5v5. Again, you have to look at how much value is being provided. How well are they doing, offensively, defensively. Who is the reason for the defensive success/failure, who is the driver for the offensive success/failure. Here is where Lafreniere's value starts to become questioned. He plays on a top unit, but it's given consistent offensive zone starts and heavily driven by Artemi Panarin. So not as much credit is given.

I know any context deeper than "Look at overall point totals" is difficult, but the concepts really aren't all that complicated


Mike Matheson is the poster boy for this.

He plays a BUNCH of minutes 5v5
He plays a BUNCH of minutes on the kill
He plays a BUNCH of minutes on the power play.

Is he good at killing penalties? No
Is he good on the power play? no
Is he good at even strength? Not particularly

So what value is he providing to a team?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Again, you miss the point entirely, reading comprehension truly is a struggle.

The PP went from Anderson-Monahan (with anderson being arguably the least productive PP guy in the league) to Newhook-Slafkovsky, and did not meaningfully improve.

Therefore, based on that, and again a bottom 8 power play in the league, I do not believe Juraj Slafkovsky provides significant value on the power play, any more than a guy like Jake Evans provides on the penalty kill.

If you believe the value juraj Slafkovsky provides on the PK is significant, then we really have to talk about the value Suzuki and Caufield are having on the PP. I have been giving them a significant portion of the positive credit, with very little going to any of the swapped around pieces like Dach,Newhook,Monahan,Anderson,Slafkovsky, and none to Mike Matheson.

I DO NOT BELIEVE A PLAYER SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR SIMPLY EXISTING ON A SPECIAL TEAMS UNIT.

If you are providing value to a unit, whether by being a cog in a top unit, a driver for a mediocre unit, or a singular guy stopping a PP from being the worst in the league, that provides value.

So then we go to 5v5. Again, you have to look at how much value is being provided. How well are they doing, offensively, defensively. Who is the reason for the defensive success/failure, who is the driver for the offensive success/failure. Here is where Lafreniere's value starts to become questioned. He plays on a top unit, but it's given consistent offensive zone starts and heavily driven by Artemi Panarin. So not as much credit is given.

I know any context deeper than "Look at overall point totals" is difficult, but the concepts really aren't all that complicated

Its a stupid argument. The PP success is based on a team system and not on an individual. Slaf was successful despite the Habs not having the right pieces on the PP (PP QB and another D witjh PP finesse.

On a team with a successful PP, Slaf would likely pile up the points at a much higher rate!’

 

[dgibb10]

Its a stupid argument. The PP success is based on a team system and not on an individual. Slaf was successful despite the Habs not having the right pieces on the PP (PP QB and another D witjh PP finesse.

On a team with a successful PP, Slaf would likely pile up the points at a much higher rate!’

You're so close to understanding it.

Juraj Slafkovsky is not contributing to a successful power play, nor is he even improving a bad one.

He simply exists. If you stuck him with a top PP, he may rack up more points, but he wouldn't help them score more goals.

If you stuck him on an even worse PP, he would get even less PP points.

If you didn't give him PP time at all, he'd get no power play points.

In none of these scenario's has Juraj Slafkovsky changed as a player. He is not better or worse.

But since you cannot evaluate beyond looking at point totals, you would suddenly think Juraj Slafkosvky suddenly got better/or worse if the situation changed around him.

Just like you have when Slafkovsky went from shit linemates and no PP1 time, to Suzuki-Caufield and PP1 time. Nothing about him meaningfully changed. He was a good player before, he is a good player now. However, the situation changed, and so if you only look at point totals, you'd think he magically learned how to play hockey better.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

You're so close to understanding it.

Juraj Slafkovsky is not contributing to a successful power play, nor is he even improving a bad one.

He simply exists. If you stuck him with a top PP, he may rack up more points, but he wouldn't help them score more goals.

If you stuck him on an even worse PP, he would get even less PP points.

If you didn't give him PP time at all, he'd get no power play points.

In none of these scenario's has Juraj Slafkovsky changed as a player. He is not better or worse.

But since you cannot evaluate beyond looking at point totals, you would suddenly think Juraj Slafkosvky suddenly got better/or worse if the situation changed around him.

Just like you have when Slafkovsky went from shit linemates and no PP1 time, to Suzuki-Caufield and PP1 time. Nothing about him meaningfully changed. He was a good player before, he is a good player now. However, the situation changed, and so if you only look at point totals, you'd think he magically learned how to play hockey better.

Its astounding that you don’t understand how a PP works. A PP is a system and the Habs don’t have the pieces yet to create a high percentage PP. that’s not on Juraj. Frim my view Juraj improved the Habs PP. The Habs PP will improve as the talent on the backend improves.

Put Juraj on a team with a successful PP and he would contribute and benefit from it. He would have far more points than he has now. Which makes his accomplishments even more impressive!!

Your argument (or their lack of) is only highlighting how impressive Juraj’s season has been!!

 

[dgibb10]

Its astounding that you don’t understand how a PP works. A PP is a system and the Habs don’t have the pieces yet to create a high percentage PP. that’s not on Juraj. Frim my view Juraj improved the Habs PP. The Habs PP will improve as the talent on the backend improves.

Put Juraj on a team with a successful PP and he would contribute and benefit from it. He would have far more points than he has now. Which makes his accomplishments even more impressive!!

Your argument (or their lack of) is only highlighting how impressive Juraj’s season has been!!

Objectively the power play has not improved since going from Monahan-Anderson to Newhook-Slaf.

Suzuki, Caufield, Newhook, and Matheson are all not good enough? Or is michael matheson apparently that bad that he is bringing the power play down that much?

If so, why has your coach not taken Matheson off the power play? Is he not a good coach?

 

[dgibb10]

Its astounding that you don’t understand how a PP works. A PP is a system and the Habs don’t have the pieces yet to create a high percentage PP. that’s not on Juraj. Frim my view Juraj improved the Habs PP. The Habs PP will improve as the talent on the backend improves.

Put Juraj on a team with a successful PP and he would contribute and benefit from it. He would have far more points than he has now. Which makes his accomplishments even more impressive!!

Your argument (or their lack of) is only highlighting how impressive Juraj’s season has been!!

Juraj Slafkosvky took over for Josh anderson on PP1 right at the beginning of december. around december 6th.

Before that time, the habs PP was at 17.8%. Since then it's at 17.3%.

It seems like the switch hasn't helped the Habs, and has only really helped Slafkovsky's stats

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Objectively the power play has not improved since going from Monahan-Anderson to Newhook-Slaf.

Suzuki, Caufield, Newhook, and Matheson are all not good enough? Or is michael matheson apparently that bad that he is bringing the power play down that much?

If so, why has your coach not taken Matheson off the power play? Is he not a good coach?

What part of a PP is a system and the Habs are missing pieces on the backend is giving you trouble?

what’s your excuse for Mercer’s putrid season? Let me guess, you have stats to show how he was a dynamo this season!

Its obvious you don’t watch the Habs or have an idea of how a PP works. Putting blame on an individual shows your lack of hockey IQ. Its like ypur “he takes too many penalties “ as a key driver why Slaf is a poor player. Your interpretation of the stats is flawed because you don’t know how a PP works!!

Meanwhile, you make excuses for Timo’s poor production and Holtz. If all these NJ players ate as successful as you make them out to be you would wonder why they missed the playoffs and suck so bad??

 

[Faceboner]

The ide of 3 top 5 picks in two years is lucrative especially with a center heavy draft you could end up with demimedov, hagens and whoever the best d man in 25 is as a best case scenario

 

[Junohockeyfan]

The ide of 3 top 5 picks in two years is lucrative especially with a center heavy draft you could end up with demimedov, hagens and whoever the best d man in 25 is as a best case scenario

I think Demidov drops to 5 or 6 due to the Russian stigma.

 

[Faceboner]

I think Demidov drops to 5 or 6 due to the Russian stigma.

I personally have him 2nd with having a much lower floor than macklin but a slightly higher ceiling

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I personally have him 2nd with having a much lower floor than macklin but a slightly higher ceiling

I have him 2nd or 3rd depending on whether Chi selects a D. But i think he is prone to slipping (like Michkov).

I also think that if he slips to 5 and the Habs are picking, they pass on him! lol

 

[dgibb10]

What part of a PP is a system and the Habs are missing pieces on the backend is giving you trouble?

what’s your excuse for Mercer’s putrid season? Let me guess, you have stats to show how he was a dynamo this season!

Its obvious you don’t watch the Habs or have an idea of how a PP works. Putting blame on an individual shows your lack of hockey IQ. Its like ypur “he takes too many penalties “ as a key driver why Slaf is a poor player. Your interpretation of the stats is flawed because you don’t know how a PP works!!

I did not place blame on an individual.

You seem to want to give credit to all the participants of a bad power play.

I do not.

I am trying to figure out who is a positive asset on the power play, and who is not, to assign some value (overall not much to go around)

Mercer has had a very bad season. Truly struggled. Simple as that. A big part of the struggles for NJD this year, outside of injuries and goaltending, was regression from him, marino, and siegenthaler.

His individual chance generation has remained, but the playmaking and defense has been worse.

Perhaps he couldn't get adjusted with all the injuries and line changes, being constantly bumped around the lineup.

Perhaps his play was simply a product of Nico Hischier's excellence.

 

[pth2]

You're so close to understanding it.
....

You're allowed to rate players however you like, just don't expect anyone to care or buy into your frame of reference.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I did not place blame on an individual.

You seem to want to give credit to all the participants of a bad power play.

I place blame on the missing pieces to a PP system. You seem to not realize that the PP is system play that requires the right pieces for it to be successful. The Habs D-corps are inexperienced and lacking an offensive PP QB. Matheson is not a PP QB. He's terrible on the point on the PP. Poor at distributing the puck and has no vision on the PP.

This isn't rocket science...

 

[Faceboner]

I have him 2nd or 3rd depending on whether Chi selects a D. But i think he is prone to slipping (like Michkov).

Honestly Chicago might be better picking up a d man if they don't win because getting Levshunov or Buium as their top rd (zeev has predominantly played rd if I'm not mistaken) would do dividends for Chicago's d core and have guys that would be able to get it to your forwards also with a 2nd first you could add another forward with some size and 2025 is full of impact centers as well. A d-man might be best from a team building perspective.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Honestly Chicago might be better picking up a d man if they don't win because getting Levshunov or Buium as their top rd (zeev has predominantly played rd if I'm not mistaken) would do dividends for Chicago's d core and have guys that would be able to get it to your forwards also with a 2nd first you could add another forward with some size and 2025 is full of impact centers as well. A d-man might be best from a team building perspective.

I 100% agree. However, Chi fans seem to want a C to complement Bedard and build a 2nd line. If its me, i focus on a 1D. That's harder to develop. Lev is gonna be a star in this league. He has Makar vibes.

 

[dgibb10]

I place blame on the missing pieces to a PP system. You seem to not realize that the PP is system play that requires the right pieces for it to be successful. The Habs D-corps are inexperienced and lacking an offensive PP QB. Matheson is not a PP QB. He's terrible on the point on the PP. Poor at distributing the puck and has no vision on the PP.

This isn't rocket science...

Ahh so you want to place all the blame on Mike Matheson.

I'm expecting big things from the habs PP once he gets replaced then. Surely they'll be right up to the top 10 since Mike Matheson is the exclusive problem and everyone else is incredibly valuable on the PP.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Ahh so you want to place all the blame on Mike Matheson.

I'm expecting big things from the habs PP once he gets replaced then. Surely they'll be right up to the top 10 since Mike Matheson is the exclusive problem and everyone else is incredibly valuable on the PP.

Are you purposely being obtuse?

The blame is on the missing pieces, not on Matheson. Its not Matheson's fault that he's not a PP QB. Its not Matheson's fault he's overplayed because the Habs do not have a viable dman who can QB a PP.

Seriously, why are you being so stubborn? You know i'm right. It just ruins your agenda of smearing Slafkovsy.

But stick to stupidity like penalties are an issue that can't be overcome... it only shows your agenda or lack of knowledge, or both..

 

[dgibb10]

Are you purposely being obtuse?

The blame is on the missing pieces, not on Matheson. Its not Matheson's fault that he's not a PP QB. Its not Matheson's fault he's overplayed because the Habs do not have a viable dman who can QB a PP.

Seriously, why are you being so stubborn? You know i'm right. It just ruins your agenda of smearing Slafkovsy.

Even when you blame Mike Matheson for the PP struggles, it's still not okay to blame Mike Matheson.

Lmao.

The Habs PP sucks, everyone is to blame. The sharks power play is QB'd by Calen Addison and still manages to convert at 20%.

Somehow you manage to blame nobody lmao.

If your power play isn't better than the sharks, it's time to ask some tough questions

 

[Faceboner]

I 100% agree. However, Chi fans seem to want a C to complement Bedard and build a 2nd line. If its me, i focus on a 1D. That's harder to develop. Lev is gonna be a star in this league. He has Makar vibes.

I could see it next draft but the only surefire center in the top 5 is Lindstrom who has back issues and if I'm you guys I'd stay away it could be nothing but if it isn't that's essentially a wasted pick after him is catton who would definitely make a great wingman for Bedard but if I'm Chicago I'm looking at hagens, McQueen, Misa, frondell and ryabkin you guys are probably going to be drafting top 10 in 26 still since it's a barebones rebuild and I imagine you guys start to structure your roster to exit the rebuild when CB98 gets his contract