Player Discussion: 2023 Vezina Finalist Connor Hellebuyck

[10Ducky10]

Every team's D looks horrible in front of that kind of goaltending.

I am guessing you didn't watch many Sabres' games?

 

[tbcwpg]

I am guessing you didn't watch many Sabres' games?

Yeah their D is just as responsible for their GA as their goalies.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I am guessing you didn't watch many Sabres' games?

And you are correct.
82 Jets games + pre-season and maybe a few PO games are all I have time for.

Sabres are young and need experience. That will show in their team D. It will also get better.

I know that they had 91 pts last year and Jets had 95. Sabres with Helle gain more than 4 points. Jets without Helle lose more than 4 points. I don't need to watch Sabres to figure that one out. I've watched quite a bit of Helle.

 

[10Ducky10]

Im not talking their GAA or team D.
Their D corps, as a unit, played horribly last year. They have nobody to play with Power and/or Dahlin and played Dahlin on the right side for some games!
They need RHD more than we do. The jury is our whether the RHD they brought in this summer will change things but I can't see it being worse.

 

[DRW204]

BUF at all strengths gave up the 26th most shots and 24th most xGA

team sv% was 23rd, GA vs xGA was 27th.

they got bad goaltending and their bad defensively.

i think w/ average goaltending they're easily a PO team (league aveage was ~0.900 this past year)

 

[10Ducky10]

BUF at all strengths gave up the 26th most shots and 24th most xGA

team sv% was 23rd, GA vs xGA was 27th.

they got bad goaltending and their bad defensively.

i think w/ average goaltending they're easily a PO team (league aveage was ~0.900 this past year)

I agree but with an average D corps, they would have made the playoffs.

 

[Jets4Life]

This is a hot take, probably based on points and not org strength.

If Buffalo had Helle between the pipes last year, they contend for conference title.

If the Jets had McDavid and Drai instead of Wheeler and Scheifele, they could contend for the Conf title.

See how easy this is ....

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Im not talking their GAA or team D.
Their D corps, as a unit, played horribly last year. They have nobody to play with Power and/or Dahlin and played Dahlin on the right side for some games!
They need RHD more than we do. The jury is our whether the RHD they brought in this summer will change things but I can't see it being worse.

Agree their D is lopsided. VG on the left side, V weak on the right. I expect 1 of Dahlin or Power will play the right side. That will help.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

If the Jets had McDavid and Drai instead of Wheeler and Scheifele, they could contend for the Conf title.

See how easy this is ....

Hardly the same thing since we are discussing actually sending Helle to Buffalo and their potential to contend if we do. At the same time we are expecting Helle to leave whether to Buffalo or not so we can also compare Sabres to Jets with neither having Helle.

 

[10Ducky10]

Agree their D is lopsided. VG on the left side, V weak on the right. I expect 1 of Dahlin or Power will play the right side. That will help.

I agree that it will help but you want those two playing on their left side.
RHD seems to always be at a premium.
To think, we had Trouba, Buff and Myers... and then it was gone.
The biggest critique I have of Chevy is some of the far below average D men he supplied for a couple of years during that time. Lots of our stars leaving, in the middle of or entering their primes. A blown opportunity if you ask me.

 

[Whileee]

Not to focus too much on the Sabres, but they had poor defense (overall), and bad goaltending. That's why they ended up with so many goals against.

Here is a summary for their defense and goaltending, from HockeyViz.

 

[DRW204]

I agree but with an average D corps, they would have made the playoffs.

fair point. i do think given the 2 areas of their team Goaltending being closer to league-average provides the bigger team boost tho.

Given all the chatter about the declining importance of the "star" goalie in the NHL following the varying success of good tandem teams, thought this might be interesting to some folk. As go running backs go NHL goalies? Seems like very different positions in very different sports, but it's a talking point.

Barkley considered sitting out season as NFL teams shun running backs

A frustrated Saquon Barkley considered sitting out the 2023 season if he couldn’t get a new contract from the New York Giants

www.theguardian.com

was thinking about this the other day given the recent news of NFL RBs meeting up to discuss the devaluation of their position.

imo
and it's not always easy to quantify or distinguish across different positions in different sports.

in terms of importance to winning NHL goaltending>NFL RBs, no question. both positions can be reliant on the team in front of them... RBs w/ their quality of QB or Oline, Goaltending with their quality of team-defense.

RBs have a shorter NFL life span evidently, and are probably the most injury prone position. there's certainly some that may be harder to replace or possess diverse skill-sets where they are just not pure RBs (CMC and Ekeler come to mind) however i'd say most RBs are replaceable or teams can get by with JAGs or journeyman players on their team. so investing a multi-year deal to an RB with (& using Saquon as an example) over 1200 NFL touches, already been through number of injuries including ACL surgery, seems a bit unwise to make a multiyear $$$ commitment when teams are finding late round cheap guys in the draft or journeyman players (ie: last 3 SB winners Pacheco/Mackinnon, Rojo/Fournette, Michel/Henderson).

the problem w/ the nhl that i see is in a hard-cap league cup contenders - who are already tight on space - may not want to give a multi-year 9-10M+ to a singular position that's historically usually been pretty volatile in terms of quality of goalie being able to take you to the cup. especially when it's a UFA deal for their eventual decline years.

recently, Vas has won a cup but then you got a bunch of journeyman guys on cheap deals like murray, binnington, hill, kuemper to a lesser extent taking teams to the promise land. then holtby who was probably similar to the deal helle has currently. dunno exactly which method is right or wrong. but seems to me the NHL seems to be heading towards being more value-driven for their players. trying to find diamonds in the rough on cheaper deals....kind of similar to RBs but maybe for different reasons?

 

[KingBogo]

I agree that it will help but you want those two playing on their left side.
RHD seems to always be at a premium.
To think, we had Trouba, Buff and Myers... and then it was gone.
The biggest critique I have of Chevy is some of the far below average D men he supplied for a couple of years during that time. Lots of our stars leaving, in the middle of or entering their primes. A blown opportunity if you ask me.

Not sure how much you can blame Chevy? Trouba wanted out and no one could do anything about it. Chevy got as much mileage at a low cost that could be hoped for. Buff quit hockey not so much the Jets. This is on Chevy if he knew it was coming but didn’t prepare for it. I have never seen any evidence of this however. Myers was one of the biggest scapegoats this board has ever known. Pretty much everyone was happy we didn’t give him his grossly overpaid UFA deal. I would have liked us to draft more RHD along the way but getting DeMelo for a 3rd has turned out to be one of Chevy’s best moves.

 

[10Ducky10]

Not sure how much you can blame Chevy? Trouba wanted out and no one could do anything about it. Chevy got as much mileage at a low cost that could be hoped for. Buff quit hockey not so much the Jets. This is on Chevy if he knew it was coming but didn’t prepare for it. I have never seen any evidence of this however. Myers was one of the biggest scapegoats this board has ever known. Pretty much everyone was happy we didn’t give him his grossly overpaid UFA deal. I would have liked us to draft more RHD along the way but getting DeMelo for a 3rd has turned out to be one of Chevy’s best moves.

He absolutely knew about Trouba but did get Pionk.
What about the shitty D that wore a Jets uni those two seasons?
He couldn't have made a trade during some of our players' best years?
It is definitely on Chevy as he suppplies the players.

 

[surixon]

He absolutely knew about Trouba but did get Pionk.
What about the shitty D that wore a Jets uni those two seasons?
He couldn't have made a trade during some of our players' best years?
It is definitely on Chevy as he suppplies the players.

I think it's hard to make moves for premier players in this league. It's not so easy to snap your fingers and get another Buff.

We heard he had Laine and Ehelers out there for Provalov and Pesce for instance so he was trying to address it. When Little went down he needed another top 6 center so had three main holes to fill. He was able to get the center spot filled and then slowly acquired solid depth dmen to create a by committee dcore.

 

[KingBogo]

He absolutely knew about Trouba but did get Pionk.
What about the shitty D that wore a Jets uni those two seasons?
He couldn't have made a trade during some of our players' best years?
It is definitely on Chevy as he suppplies the players.

Agreed we went 2 years with horrible D. But each situation is unique. There is get the best return possible camp VS ride a player as long as you can at a team friendly salary camp. With Trouba we were coming off a Conference final appearance when he would have been worth his most. Running it back with him on a team friendly cap hit made sense, especially with team control at the end of the season. Buff caught everyone off guard, not just Chevy. The funny thing is when Chevy actually went out and got better players in Dillon and Schmidt he gets roasted for blocking prospects.

 

[10Ducky10]

Agreed we went 2 years with horrible D. But each situation is unique. There is get the best return possible camp VS ride a player as long as you can at a team friendly salary camp. With Trouba we were coming off a Conference final appearance when he would have been worth his most. Running it back with him on a team friendly cap hit made sense, especially with team control at the end of the season. Buff caught everyone off guard, not just Chevy. The funny thing is when Chevy actually went out and got better players in Dillon and Schmidt he gets roasted for blocking prospects.

Even if you give him the first year. He did nothing for another season.
Pissed away 2 seasons of a lot of really good years for some really good players.

 

[KingBogo]

Even if you give him the first year. He did nothing for another season.
Pissed away 2 seasons of a lot of really good years for some really good players.

Agreed those were pretty frustrating years, but it was reported at the time Chevy was shopping the likes of Ehlers around to upgrade the defense. I remember feeling pretty nervous about losing Ehlers.

 

[WolfHouse]

Agreed those were pretty frustrating years, but it was reported at the time Chevy was shopping the likes of Ehlers around to upgrade the defense. I remember feeling pretty nervous about losing Ehlers.

Things would look pretty grim with a long term Ristolainen contract on our cap...

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I agree that it will help but you want those two playing on their left side.
RHD seems to always be at a premium.
To think, we had Trouba, Buff and Myers... and then it was gone.
The biggest critique I have of Chevy is some of the far below average D men he supplied for a couple of years during that time. Lots of our stars leaving, in the middle of or entering their primes. A blown opportunity if you ask me.

Not sure what you expected Chevy to do. Simply identifying the need doesn't lead to a solution. Not sure what was the opportunity that was blown either.

Buff was no longer in his prime. Myers was never that good. Trouba left in his prime. That's one. Rhd are at a premium for all teams.

I think Chevy has failed to draft enough top 4 D, especially on the right side. BPA at the draft gets in the way of that.

 

[Jets 31]

Agreed we went 2 years with horrible D. But each situation is unique. There is get the best return possible camp VS ride a player as long as you can at a team friendly salary camp. With Trouba we were coming off a Conference final appearance when he would have been worth his most. Running it back with him on a team friendly cap hit made sense, especially with team control at the end of the season. Buff caught everyone off guard, not just Chevy. The funny thing is when Chevy actually went out and got better players in Dillon and Schmidt he gets roasted for blocking prospects.

Agreed, losing Buff and Little for absolutely nothing really set this team back .

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

He absolutely knew about Trouba but did get Pionk.
What about the shitty D that wore a Jets uni those two seasons?
He couldn't have made a trade during some of our players' best years?
It is definitely on Chevy as he suppplies the players.

What did you want Chevy to trade for who?
He got DeMelo. Do you give him credit for that?
Trades in the NHL are clearly very difficult to make unless you are prepared to get bent over. We still have Scheifele and Helle.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Agreed we went 2 years with horrible D. But each situation is unique. There is get the best return possible camp VS ride a player as long as you can at a team friendly salary camp. With Trouba we were coming off a Conference final appearance when he would have been worth his most. Running it back with him on a team friendly cap hit made sense, especially with team control at the end of the season. Buff caught everyone off guard, not just Chevy. The funny thing is when Chevy actually went out and got better players in Dillon and Schmidt he gets roasted for blocking prospects.

Because he is blocking prospects.
If he had gotten them 2 years earlier it would have been different. By the time he got them we had prospects near ready.

Fans! Can't live with 'em and can't live without 'em.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Agreed, losing Buff and Little for absolutely nothing really set this team back .

And having Scheif and/or Helle walk will really set us back too - probably even more.

It is still either extend or trade for me - even if the returns are a little disappointing or the contracts are a little high.

 

[DRW204]