Did you notice the very recent DeBrincat trade?Outside of the common sense trading parameters of hockey for like forever? You don’t trade in-division like ever unless you’re big time shit and it doesn’t matter anymore because you aren’t competing with anybody, you trade rentals in conference fairly often because you’re already out of it and the player will hit open market soon, and when you have to trade borderline superstar players you often do it between conferences. This is, like, very common knowledge stuff but it especially applies to Buffalo and the baggage related to Eichel vs Management.
This one tries to be balanced but Columbus is eh, and as soon as the Rangers make the list it’s immediately noted that Buffalo would obviously prefer to trade him West.
And here’s a direct from ownership quote that they want to move him to the West.
NHL Rumors: Latest Buzz on Potential Jack Eichel Trade, Alec Martinez, More
The NHL offseason has already been plenty eventful. Both the Seattle Kraken expansion draft and the 2021 NHL draft have taken place, while numerous big trades have shaken up the landscape of the league...syndication.bleacherreport.com
But Washington is something of a wildcard team and Buffalo doesn’t need competition for wildcard spots as one themselves. It’s about strengthening the pool you directly compete with, and you can’t tell me a Washington with Eichel and a Buffalo with Kuznetsov and parts are competitive right now because you’re pining for the move. If it were lateral you wouldn’t care, so why would Buffalo do it?
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Kalopsia
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I don't buy that Buffalo would've taken Wilson over Tuch. Wilson at that point would've been 26, signed for 3 more years at 5.17M, and had a career best of 44 points. Tuch was 24, signed for 5 more years at 4.75M, and had a career best of 52 points. Tuch still had offensive upside left, which he demonstrated this season. I think given the choice the Sabres would've gone with the younger player with more upside and a longer, cheaper contract given the choice. No idea how the Caps would've made the cap work either. The Knights had a ton of guys on LTIR in order to finagle things and make it work, the Caps basically would've had to force Backstrom or Eichel not to come off LTIR until the playoffs.
Also, just a reminder - Wilson had a 10 team NTC at the time (it's down to 7 teams now). Probably a good chance that Buffalo, coming off a season where they were dead last by 6 points, was on that list.
Kalopsia
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The one where Sens GM Pierre Dorion has publicly stated that DeBrincat tied his hands and left Detroit as the only option besides signing him to his QO and letting him walk as a free agent?
As opposed to Eichel...
Honestly, if your mind is set on giving BMac a free pass and excusing his every move and non-move, that's what you are going to do.
That's what a great GM is supposed to do. Make the difficult possible. Come back to me when we are at year 8 of this futility.
HTFN
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Tuch has more offensive upside and they didn;'t have to go through a team in the East, which I just sourced for you was a valid concern.
Calling him a good(not great) player after he just went for a point per game in Buffalo is f***ing around. He was a central asset with a higher ceiling, Wilson is amazing but he's not going to be that and certain teams need Wilson types less when they don't have all the parts aligned first.
So many of these arguments are based on what you want but not what other teams would actually do.
twabby
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There’s no way to know for sure whether Buffalo was on the list. As a counterpoint Wilson is from the Toronto area so maybe Buffalo, being in the vicinity, would have been an acceptable destination for him?
It’s moot because I don’t think Washington had or has any intention of moving Wilson no matter how strong the value is in return. All of MacLellan’s offseason quotes this year suggest that he’s completely off limits so why would it have been different then?
I also can’t wrap my head around the idea that Tom Wilson is a unicorn in the head of hockey men around the league yet he wouldn’t have similar or better value than Alex Tuch? That’s a pretty wild statement to me.
The cap space constraint also rings hollow to me. They had millions of dollars in dead weight that they willingly signed to the roster, including $6.75 million to Justin Schultz and Carl Hagelin. If the argument is that they didn’t have the cap space to pursue a legit #1 center, then perhaps they shouldn’t have signed depth or complementary players to way-too-big contracts in the first place.
Speaking of complementary players getting way-too-big contracts, theres another litmus test coming up. Let’s see if MacLellan passes the test or repeats the same mistakes!
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HTFN
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The fact that this is where you're landing instead of taking the very real, very reasonable hockey reasons at face value says a lot more about you and your mentality than anyone else. Difficult is managing the caps they already had through a flat cap without absolutely bombing the whole team, and they've done that.
So you just don't understand how things work beyond spreadsheets. That's okay.
HTFN
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Just for comparison, possibly the only team in the league that has been as competitive for as long with as much of a reasonable burden to take care of its stars is the Pittsburgh Penguins. Maybe the Boston Bruins. Like it or not all of these franchises have been making overtures to retain their aging core, if not outright mandates, and building teams around them.
Boston has been more competitive lately but they also had expiring contracts taking discounts to facilitate it and that ride might be over for some of them. Then, of course, they flamed out so who can really care all that much?
You look at the next few years and the Capitals are at least as poised as the Bruins to transition and both franchises are so significantly ahead of the Penguins it's insane. That's not bad management, that's stretching the situation as given to the best of your ability. They have a non-negligible prospect pool, well staggered contract windows, and very few true albatrosses depending on the next few years. The ones they have are understandable and budget-able with term that all collapses on a great window for workability going forward.
Anybody who isn't just managing year to year and has any foresight should acknowledge that they're not in unworkable territory.
Boston has been more competitive lately but they also had expiring contracts taking discounts to facilitate it and that ride might be over for some of them. Then, of course, they flamed out so who can really care all that much?
You look at the next few years and the Capitals are at least as poised as the Bruins to transition and both franchises are so significantly ahead of the Penguins it's insane. That's not bad management, that's stretching the situation as given to the best of your ability. They have a non-negligible prospect pool, well staggered contract windows, and very few true albatrosses depending on the next few years. The ones they have are understandable and budget-able with term that all collapses on a great window for workability going forward.
Anybody who isn't just managing year to year and has any foresight should acknowledge that they're not in unworkable territory.
Kalopsia
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...who had no leverage on where he went because he was already on a long term contract with no trade protection. DeBrincat was sitting on a 1 year, 9M qualifying offer and if a team he didn't like traded for him, he could just accept it and ride out his last year until free agency. Teams were only going to be interested if he agreed to sign an extension, and he only agreed to sign an extension in Detroit. The Eichel and DeBrincat situations are not comparable, I dunno how much more clearly I can put this.
The irony of pulling the "what's the use in arguing, nothing I say is going to change your mind" card after pages of various people taking the time to explain the context behind why all you "should've"s don't make sense is almost enough to make me think you're just trolling rather than arguing in good faith.
Kalopsia
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Can we please not turn this into another value of Wilson debate? My point is that this criticism of MacLellan is like three nested levels of hypotheticals and ignoring a ton of important context. IF Buffalo was willing to trade Eichel to a team in the Eastern Conference without raising the asking price and IF they valued Wilson more than Tuch and IF WIlson couldn't block the trade then he screwed up by signing Schultz and Hagelin to bad contracts years earlier instead of leaving those spots for cheap prospects so that he could enter a season where he was trying to contend and where he already had one expensive center coming off an injury with an uncertain return timeline, with ~5m in cap space left unused so that in November he could trade Wilson plus a huge chunk of our farm system (the equivalent to Krebs, 2022 1st, and 2023 2nd would IMO be McMichael plus the picks that became Miro and Cristall) for a guy coming off a procedure that had never been done on an NHL player with an uncertain return timeline and no guarantee he ever returns to his previous level of play. That's what we're talking about here.
Also, I like the subtle move at the end where you lay the groundwork for a future argument with the presupposition that Wilson is a comparable player to Schultz and Hagelin. Any definition of "complementary player" that's broad enough to include all three of those guys is too broad to be useful.
I might be missing something, in all honesty. Couldn't Ottawa have kept DeBrincat for the season and traded him at the deadline? They had the cap space.
They traded him within the division, to the exact team that they are going to compete for a playoff spot with, for a mediocre return.
twabby
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Yet Vegas was willing to do all of those things for a “risky” acquisition because they realized they were a win-now team that needed a top 6 infusion of talent. I have high hopes for Washington’s draft picks but Jack Eichel is Jack Eichel. Washington should have been aggressive in pursuing him because they needed a top 6 center but from all indications they weren’t actually serious about pursuing him. It’s a shame because as it turns out they still need a top 6 center and there doesn’t appear to be one available now that really moves the needle.
I wasn’t trying to be subtle about Wilson this offseason. MacLellan has an opportunity to take a different approach with Wilson than he did with other complementary or depth guys in their 30s, but instead it looks like he’s primed to make the “safe” choice and simply give Wilson that 7 or 8 year extension. It’s going to stink when another impact player gets moved but Washington can’t swing a trade because they’re capped out or unwilling to move a piece they deem too valuable.
HTFN
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And all indications seemed that Buffalo wasn't willing to trade him to an Eastern Conference team. It's a moot f***ing point with a ton of wishing on your end.
Of course they probably never made a serious, late stages qualifying because they were probably told it wasn't happening to the East. If that market had changed maybe something might have gone different but it didn't change, and you have no reason to assume it was open bidding from the other 30 NHL teams.
No more judgement than you just did to me.
Most all long time fans don’t have their knickers in a bunch right now, as we’ve all played the looong game for a loooong time. I’m not saying it’s appropriate, but it’s a hard fact.
The only ones that are seemingly joining in with the “fire everyone” mantra are either posters who always think that “they could do better” than the current regime, or are newer (post Ovechkin) fans.
It’s fine, just what I am seeing/reading here.
Brian23
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This isn't NHL23. You can't just magic things out of air, and real life factors outside of Hockey will constantly and consistently affect actual hockey decisions.
It seems much less that anyone is willing to give BMac a free pass for things he hasn't done yet then it is that some people seem to want to heap all the blame of the world onto him. I'd also be willing to bet it'd be those same people who'd have been going for his head if he'd let those cherished favorite players who're bringing the team down (Backstrom, Oshie, etc) walk instead of re-signing them.
Jags
Mildly Disturbed
Dear Twabaratus,
You can't just look at trades that happen and say, "We should have done that trade! Our GM sucks!"
The salary cap matters. NMCs matter. GMs are particular about trading in-division. Trading away a bucket of futures when you're a couple years away from serious turnover is a bad idea. And other teams get to make offers, too. You have to take ALL of those factors into account AND top every other offer to land a big-ticket player.
There's no way to prove Wilson wouldn't have had Buffalo on his no trade list? No one wants to go to Buffalo. Buffalo's top export is Buffalo residents. The whole reason we're discussing this at all is that their only star player was more desperate to escape a city than Snake Plissken ever was.
They rank #4 on the list of most miserable sports cities. They're more known for The Music City Miracle, Wide Right, and No Goal than for winning anything. The last time they won a championship of any note, that league shut down the following year.
"But it's close to Toronto!" Sure, but he's gonna take a plane, right? You think he's going to tie himself to the frozen armpit of the NHL just to spend a few less minutes suffering in first class when he goes to visit his mom?
A guy that doesn't want to be traded relies on his ridiculously expensive agent to block the most likely trades. That year Eichel was the top trade target and there was buzz about Scheifele (Winnipeg is the other frozen armpit of the NHL). Buffalo and Winnipeg were on everyone's no-trade list.
The #1 reason Vegas was able to swing that trade is that Tuch and Krebs' no-trade lists were fictional and therefore not recognized by the NHL.
The Capitals have not had the assets or cap space to get seriously involved in those types of trades for a long time now. The only 3 guys that could have given us the cap relief to maybe afford Eichel all had trade protection.
"What I want is the same thing I wanted for years. Top-6 players, especially centers, to be exchanged for better and younger players."
"Throwing the kitchen sink" at this idea, as you put it, is something A LOT of teams do when those types of players become available. Every team that thinks they might have a shot cobbles together their own kitchen sink and throws it. Every team.
This assumption so many people seem to make, that if a GM didn't land a trade then he must not have even tried, is preposterous. Every GM that thinks they could even remotely be in the mix for a player like Eichel puts together the offer they can live with, and our GM has never been shy about trades.
You're coming up with these Fantasyland proposals and then getting all mad when our GM can't pull them off. You ask Santa for a unicorn for Christmas and get butthurt when it doesn't happen even though unicorns don't exist. Santa isn't that powerful, guys.
Sincerely,
Everyone Else
You can't just look at trades that happen and say, "We should have done that trade! Our GM sucks!"
The salary cap matters. NMCs matter. GMs are particular about trading in-division. Trading away a bucket of futures when you're a couple years away from serious turnover is a bad idea. And other teams get to make offers, too. You have to take ALL of those factors into account AND top every other offer to land a big-ticket player.
There's no way to prove Wilson wouldn't have had Buffalo on his no trade list? No one wants to go to Buffalo. Buffalo's top export is Buffalo residents. The whole reason we're discussing this at all is that their only star player was more desperate to escape a city than Snake Plissken ever was.
They rank #4 on the list of most miserable sports cities. They're more known for The Music City Miracle, Wide Right, and No Goal than for winning anything. The last time they won a championship of any note, that league shut down the following year.
"But it's close to Toronto!" Sure, but he's gonna take a plane, right? You think he's going to tie himself to the frozen armpit of the NHL just to spend a few less minutes suffering in first class when he goes to visit his mom?
A guy that doesn't want to be traded relies on his ridiculously expensive agent to block the most likely trades. That year Eichel was the top trade target and there was buzz about Scheifele (Winnipeg is the other frozen armpit of the NHL). Buffalo and Winnipeg were on everyone's no-trade list.
The #1 reason Vegas was able to swing that trade is that Tuch and Krebs' no-trade lists were fictional and therefore not recognized by the NHL.
The Capitals have not had the assets or cap space to get seriously involved in those types of trades for a long time now. The only 3 guys that could have given us the cap relief to maybe afford Eichel all had trade protection.
"What I want is the same thing I wanted for years. Top-6 players, especially centers, to be exchanged for better and younger players."
"Throwing the kitchen sink" at this idea, as you put it, is something A LOT of teams do when those types of players become available. Every team that thinks they might have a shot cobbles together their own kitchen sink and throws it. Every team.
This assumption so many people seem to make, that if a GM didn't land a trade then he must not have even tried, is preposterous. Every GM that thinks they could even remotely be in the mix for a player like Eichel puts together the offer they can live with, and our GM has never been shy about trades.
You're coming up with these Fantasyland proposals and then getting all mad when our GM can't pull them off. You ask Santa for a unicorn for Christmas and get butthurt when it doesn't happen even though unicorns don't exist. Santa isn't that powerful, guys.
Sincerely,
Everyone Else
CapitalsCupReality
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“Buffalo's top export is Buffalo residents.”
Hilarious…lol….
Hilarious…lol….
Mother of God. Unless you are starting a new religion, you should be able to make a point in fewer words than that. Lol, signed everyone.
Just kidding. Anyway, I don't think that composition of top-6 has been a serious point of concern for BMac until recently. Everyone classifies him as a 'straight shooter'. He's changed coaches. That didn't improve team's fortunes. Swapped goalies, ditto. We traded away a bunch of players, who all went to perform significantly better at their new teams. Traded for a bunch of useless fluff every year, up until Strome. The horrible Mantha trade. Even if Mantha came here and was the best version of himself, that was a terrible misallocation of the few quality resources the team possessed.
Philosophically, I believe that BMac considered his core group to be set. He was wrong. He tinkered with everything but the thing that was clearly the problem. Our top-6 doesn't control or possess the puck nearly enough to compete.
Brian23
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That's just patently not true, and just looking out "oh, they were worse" is such an awful way to evaluate anyone in a process orientated field.
Simply, if you gave the 2021 Capitals Keumper and Charlie as their backstop instead of Vanecek and Samsonov (and I'm actually a big Samsonov supporter, another Lavi killer) that team is easily into the 2nd round. I don't know if they beat Tampa, but they certainly have a shot.
Well, first off they didn't trade for Strome so already not batting 1.000. But even if we keep that list to only top/super useful players both Jensen and Kempney are staring at you in the face.
That's ignoring the truly useful players acquried in trade like Mojo and/or Hagelin. Hell, Connor Brown was a great trade that went to shit cause he got hurt. But yeah, him blowing his ACL 2 or 3 games in was all GMBM's fault obviously.
Once again, there would have been riots in the proverbial streets if GMBM had let Kuzy, Backstrom, or Oshie walk away when he did.
Jags
Mildly Disturbed
Hey, I could be starting a religion. You don't know my life.
Now go say 8 Hail Ovi's and 5 Don't Bothers. And call your mom, for Peake's sake. If you don't have a mom, call someone else's mom.
895
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It's not that I think I could do better than GMBM., it's that I think there were several moves that were obviously bad moves that he made. And I called them out as being bad moves at the time, no hindsight involved.
He should be fired, but even if he isn't, it's not a big deal because I know where we are. We are just chasing Ovechkin goals. Playoffs don't really matter. Making the playoffs and getting eliminated in 4 games is not necessarily better than getting a top 5 pick.
He should be fired, but even if he isn't, it's not a big deal because I know where we are. We are just chasing Ovechkin goals. Playoffs don't really matter. Making the playoffs and getting eliminated in 4 games is not necessarily better than getting a top 5 pick.
twabby
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I’ve been convinced that Eichel probably wasn’t a viable option. Good posts @Jags and @HTFN . Consider my mind changed on the matter.
Just for clarity I’m not calling for MacLellan’s head or anything. But I think he could have been more aggressive in making substantial changes to the core. I think they could have sold high on Kuznetsov after 2022. I think their current situation with Mantha was foreseeable if they looked a bit harder at his personality and Laviolette’s.
It’s impossible to know what moves were available for sure, but as mentioned earlier it is a results based business. We don’t give players awards for effort. Shouldn’t we be just as critical of management?
Just for clarity I’m not calling for MacLellan’s head or anything. But I think he could have been more aggressive in making substantial changes to the core. I think they could have sold high on Kuznetsov after 2022. I think their current situation with Mantha was foreseeable if they looked a bit harder at his personality and Laviolette’s.
It’s impossible to know what moves were available for sure, but as mentioned earlier it is a results based business. We don’t give players awards for effort. Shouldn’t we be just as critical of management?
895
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