GDT: 2023 NHL Free Agency Frenzy

Status
Not open for further replies.

PlushMinus

Registered User
Nov 18, 2021
1,676
1,805
I think it was regarding some bold political views that he just wouldn't shut up about, despite being repeatedly asked to do so.
Nah there's a bit more to it from what I was reading today.

A Rangers fan mentioned DeAngelo turning over a puck in OT and Georgiev let the resulting shot in, thus losing the game, and DeAngelo was going off at him like it was all his fault.

Just one example, but imagine that kind of shit in a locker room. Then imagine it in a veteran room like the Caps. No way it would fly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IafrateOvie34

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,727
14,962
Haven't read every word of every long ass post but don't forget how close they were to winning the FL series, and the fact that they had Hank lined up as their 1A goalie before his health condition.

Portraying the last 4-5 years as a total laughingstock do-nothing failure is not accurate. They didn't get the job done and had serious problems with some key positions, but couldn't get value in trade for those players because, duh, nobody wants to trade for a HEADCASE (or two).

Except maybe Arizona.
 

Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
37,138
13,668
Philadelphia
A Rangers fan mentioned DeAngelo turning over a puck in OT and Georgiev let the resulting shot in, thus losing the game, and DeAngelo was going off at him like it was all his fault.
More specifically, DeAngelo and Georgiev had some level of prior beef, dating back to their time in AHL Hartford together. DeAngelo told Georgiev to "make a f***ing save" in the locker room following that game. Georgiev swung at him. Rangers management and the locker room clearly took Georgiev's side, despite him being the one to swing.

There was also prior rumors regarding DeAngelo potentially stealing or hiding the puck from K'Andre Miller's first goal, which in turn obviously made fans draw a mental link to the time he was suspended for calling an OHL teammate "a slur" which led to an altercation in practice.
 

HTFN

Registered User
Feb 8, 2009
12,326
11,044
More specifically, DeAngelo and Georgiev had some level of prior beef, dating back to their time in AHL Hartford together. DeAngelo told Georgiev to "make a f***ing save" in the locker room following that game. Georgiev swung at him. Rangers management and the locker room clearly took Georgiev's side, despite him being the one to swing.

There was also prior rumors regarding DeAngelo potentially stealing or hiding the puck from K'Andre Miller's first goal, which in turn obviously made fans draw a mental link to the time he was suspended for calling an OHL teammate "a slur" which led to an altercation in practice.
Who tries to Chris Pronger somebody from their own team? If that's true, what a loser.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PlushMinus

SecretaryofDefense5

Registered User
Mar 20, 2022
3,175
3,162
Washington DC
This isn't a video game. COVID happened , the cap ceiling compressed hard, and next to no high salary movement happened afterwards without retention (or being a rental), or being a nutty ass lopsided deal. Just up and deciding to trade core pieces is one thing but how do you think the discussion reasonably goes? You think when they're trying to trade Vrana, for example, that they don't float other assets as well?

Unless you're willing to throw away assets at a loss just to do something different (and it sounds like you are, which is insane and really bad team management) they're doing exactly what they should be doing.
I quite literally say in the post I don’t know what the right move was but it is indeed fair to question keeping that core intact for that duration of time given the lack of results.
 

traparatus

Registered User
Oct 19, 2012
2,848
3,052
Yep. It’s easy to say with hindsight that they should’ve shaken up the core, but when exactly did that make sense? In 2019 they could’ve but it would’ve been insane to do it one year after the Cup. 2020 it’s possible they could’ve but that was the weird Covid bubble year and their big change was hiring Lavi. 2021-23 you can make the argument they should’ve, but the flat cap killed the value of vets on big contracts, so you likely wouldn’t have been getting much more than cap space back in return. The last few years have also been pretty much the doldrums for the Caps farm system, so if they had moved out an aging vet they probably would’ve had to just sign a new aging vet in free agency to replace them. Then there’s Ted who’s notoriously attached to his stats and for all we know could’ve told MacLellan the core was off limits. The options for significant positive change have been really limited.
It made sense exactly when Islanders wiped the floor with them in 2020. What more sign do you need? So many excuses being made... Oshie had value, Eller had value. Vrana had an absolute boat-load of value and was traded in an side-ways move that didn't solve the cap situation or improve the roster. 1st round pick was flushed down the drain in that trade, too. That does not help the farm system. Hell, even Kuznetsov was a movable asset at some point, though that's a more complicated proposition.

Of course, it's all hindsight, though A LOT of this was discussed at the time. Also, there is simply not much to talk about as far as future goes. Like, the team doesn't have any open center spots. We missed the playoffs, hockey wasn't fun to watch, our center lineup is poor and our top center prospect and really the only guy with any hope of filling a top-6 center role is projected to start on the wing. No chance of power play time. Yeah, that'll learn him.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
64,842
19,709
I contest the “boatload of value“ idea for Vrana for sure.

1st round pick was flushed…..for Panik, not Mantha. It’s a bad signing made worse by a costly trade and dump.

Let‘s pretend Mantha was someone else and we got some 30/30 guy (or better)……

Is that changing our fortunes much today or in the last few postseasons? I say maybe, but probably not.


Definitely some things to have beef over with GMBM, but Backstrom falling off a cliff, Carlson out, Slackernetsov and various other underperformances combined with limited NHL depth, it was a perfect storm of failure.
 
Last edited:

LesDiablesRouges

Registered User
Feb 9, 2019
1,541
1,957
I contest the “boatload of value“ idea for Vrana for sure.

1st round pick was flushed…..for Panik, not Mantha. It’s a bad signing made worse by a costly trade and dump.

Let‘s pretend Mantha was someone else and we got some 30/30 guy (or better)……

Is that changing our fortunes much today or in the last few postseasons? I say maybe, but probably not.


Definitely some things to have beef over with GMBM, but Backstrom falling off a cliff, Carlson out, Slackernetsov and various other underperformances combined with limited NHL depth, it was a perfect storm of failure.
Slackernetsov!! Haha. That’s a new one for me, love it. Mr. Cokesnortsov.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CapitalsCupReality

Kalopsia

Registered User
Jun 25, 2018
791
1,179
It made sense exactly when Islanders wiped the floor with them in 2020. What more sign do you need? So many excuses being made... Oshie had value, Eller had value. Vrana had an absolute boat-load of value and was traded in an side-ways move that didn't solve the cap situation or improve the roster. 1st round pick was flushed down the drain in that trade, too. That does not help the farm system. Hell, even Kuznetsov was a movable asset at some point, though that's a more complicated proposition.

Of course, it's all hindsight, though A LOT of this was discussed at the time. Also, there is simply not much to talk about as far as future goes. Like, the team doesn't have any open center spots. We missed the playoffs, hockey wasn't fun to watch, our center lineup is poor and our top center prospect and really the only guy with any hope of filling a top-6 center role is projected to start on the wing. No chance of power play time. Yeah, that'll learn him.
First of all, keep in mind that the 2020 offseason was the peak of covid uncertainty. Everything was shut down or happening in bubbles, we still had no idea when a vaccine was coming. The biggest trades that fall were Devon Toews (an RFA at the time) for two 2nd, Saad (1 year left at 6M) for Zadorov (RFA), and Domi (RFA) for Anderson (RFA). There were guys like Stastny, Gudbranson, and R. Murray who all had 1 year left on their deals and went for 4th or 5th rounders. The only player with a significant contract who was traded that offseason was 28 year old Nate Schmidt coming off a third straight 30+ point season where he played 22 minutes a night. Schmidt, coincidentally, had virtually the same years and cap hit remaining as Oshie. Jim Benning gave up a 3rd round pick two years down the road for him. Only three free agents got more than 4 years or 20M that offseason. No one wanted to give out or take on long term contracts in 2020.

Kuzy and Oshie at that point each has 5 more years on their contracts with 15-team no-trade lists. If the Caps could even find teams that wanted them but weren't blocked by the NTCs, the value they got back wouldn't have been high. Eller had 3 more years on his contract, but at least no trade protection. Maybe they could've flipped him for a mid-round pick, but I don't know who they'd have been opening that spot up for. McMichael wasn't remotely ready and it was an historically bad crop of free agent centers. Vrana probably had some decent value, but if we're playing the hindsight game who knows if his drug problems were already widely known throughout the league by that point. Ever since that came out I've wondered whether that was why his value seemed so low in the Mantha trade.

Anyway, I don't have a great memory, but my recollection is that this board was super anti-Rierden by then and very happy to write off the flop against the Islanders as the team quitting on its coach and hating being separated from their families to play in a bubble with no fans. I don't remember any significant consensus about moving core pieces after Laviolette was hired.
 
Last edited:

Ovechkins Wodka

Registered User
Dec 1, 2007
17,780
7,496
DC
I had wondered if a new coach and a new season might bring a change with Mantha, but I'm not confident of that anymore, given it's been openly discussed that the team has been trying to trade him. I get the feeling he is the kind of personality whose confidence is only going to be even less as a result of that. Previously I would have said Lavi might have messed with his head and there was still a shot at redemption.

My thoughts on Samsonov: he messed up off the ice and then let in some pretty bad goals on the ice, culminating in that playoff losing fiasco behind the net against Boston, and that was it as far as the team / locker room went. We all saw Ovie let fly at him and I think for Samsonov it would have been a very uncomfortable environment after that, if it wasn't already.

He goes to Toronto and has a very good regular season in a new environment, which is really what he needed. I do give the guy props: Toronto is probably the 2nd toughest market in the league and it's a credit to him how well he played - up until the playoffs. And sure he got injured but he looked like "our" Sammy in those playoff games.

Anyway, just my opinion.
Mantha hasn’t even had 1 practice with our new coach. If he’s on the team give him a chance.
 

PlushMinus

Registered User
Nov 18, 2021
1,676
1,805
Mantha hasn’t even had 1 practice with our new coach. If he’s on the team give him a chance.
I haven't written him off - it might sound that way in my post. I am hopeful that a new coach and new season might bring about a change in him and we see him play well.

But this is now about mental fortitude etc. Some players (especially hyper-competitive ones) thrive on that and say "eff you - tried to trade me? I'll show you what I can do". But others can't get past the criticism etc and they don't bounce back. Mantha seems to me more like that kind of guy.

But it's pure speculation on my part, of course.
 

SecretaryofDefense5

Registered User
Mar 20, 2022
3,175
3,162
Washington DC
I haven't written him off - it might sound that way in my post. I am hopeful that a new coach and new season might bring about a change in him and we see him play well.

But this is now about mental fortitude etc. Some players (especially hyper-competitive ones) thrive on that and say "eff you - tried to trade me? I'll show you what I can do". But others can't get past the criticism etc and they don't bounce back. Mantha seems to me more like that kind of guy.

But it's pure speculation on my part, of course.
You could be right or Mantha could bounce back, nobody here knows because nobody can predict the future.
 

Holtbyisms

Matt Irwin is a legit talent
Jul 1, 2012
7,035
3,737
Bedford, PA
So we're willing to give Mantha a guy who has underachieved his entire NHL career under every coach he's ever had a chance with Carbery but everyone wants to burn kuzys house down? A guy who in his worst season ever last year outscored Manthas best season by 7? Insanity. I'd sooner give Kuzy a chance with Carbery than Mantha. He asked for a trade under Lavi and his trash system. Lots of guys have hated coaches, asked for trades and continued on under new leadership.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crazy8888

Holtbyisms

Matt Irwin is a legit talent
Jul 1, 2012
7,035
3,737
Bedford, PA
You could be right or Mantha could bounce back, nobody here knows because nobody can predict the future.
Bounce back from what? Mantha has precisely two 20 goal 48 point seasons and they were in 17-18, 18-19. There's nothing to bounce back to. He's always been underwhelming since he left the Q. He's not going to suddenly develop at 29.
 

SecretaryofDefense5

Registered User
Mar 20, 2022
3,175
3,162
Washington DC
Bounce back from what? Mantha has precisely two 20 goal 48 point seasons and they were in 17-18, 18-19. There's nothing to bounce back to. He's always been underwhelming since he left the Q. He's not going to suddenly develop at 29.
I’m trying to be generous here lol. Some folks keep trying to put lipstick on a pig when it comes to the roster (thus far) and I’m trying to remain optimistic, though I don’t see any reasons to be besides the coaching.
 

Ovechkins Wodka

Registered User
Dec 1, 2007
17,780
7,496
DC
That Isles playoff loss was bad. We had a better roster by far and Barry out coached us.
So we're willing to give Mantha a guy who has underachieved his entire NHL career under every coach he's ever had a chance with Carbery but everyone wants to burn kuzys house down? A guy who in his worst season ever last year outscored Manthas best season by 7? Insanity. I'd sooner give Kuzy a chance with Carbery than Mantha. He asked for a trade under Lavi and his trash system. Lots of guys have hated coaches, asked for trades and continued on under new leadership.
I own a Kuz jersey. He was the best player in the world in 2018. I want to see him bounce back and for the Caps.

The trade market looks like bad for both Mantha and Kuz so we are stuck with them for now. They are pro hockey players and if you want to stay in the league get your shit together
 
Last edited:

SecretaryofDefense5

Registered User
Mar 20, 2022
3,175
3,162
Washington DC
So we're willing to give Mantha a guy who has underachieved his entire NHL career under every coach he's ever had a chance with Carbery but everyone wants to burn kuzys house down? A guy who in his worst season ever last year outscored Manthas best season by 7? Insanity. I'd sooner give Kuzy a chance with Carbery than Mantha. He asked for a trade under Lavi and his trash system. Lots of guys have hated coaches, asked for trades and continued on under new leadership.
I think I’ll agree to disagree here. Kuzy at the end of last year was so unbelievably bad that it was a disgrace. He mailed it in and big time and was one of the worst centers in his own zone in the league. Dude went through the motions and had a temper tantrum. We’ve seen him do this up and down routine for a few years now, I’d rather not have that attitude in the locker room. Especially for a guy who has an AAV where he better be leading the way night in and night out. Disagree? That’s fine but I’ve seen enough of the dude in a Caps jersey.
 

Empty Goal Net

I don't smell disgusting, musky, and rancid
Feb 13, 2010
4,434
3,458
First of all, keep in mind that the 2020 offseason was the peak of covid uncertainty. Everything was shut down or happening in bubbles, we still had no idea when a vaccine was coming. The biggest trades that fall were Devon Toews (an RFA at the time) for two 2nd, Saad (1 year left at 6M) for Zadorov (RFA), and Domi (RFA) for Anderson (RFA). There were guys like Stastny, Gudbranson, and R. Murray who all had 1 year left on their deals and went for 4th or 5th rounders. The only player with a significant contract who was traded that offseason was 28 year old Nate Schmidt coming off a third straight 31 point season where he played 22 minutes a night. Schmidt, coincidentally, had virtually the same years and cap hit remaining as Oshie. Jim Benning gave up a 3rd round pick two years down the road for him. Only three free agents got more than 4 years or 20M that offseason. No one wanted to give out or take on long term contracts in 2020.

Kuzy and Oshie at that point each has 5 more years on their contracts with 15-team no-trade lists. If the Caps could even find teams that wanted them but weren't blocked by the NTCs, the value they got back wouldn't have been high. Eller had 3 more years on his contract, but at least no trade protection. Maybe they could've flipped him for a mid-round pick, but I don't know who they'd have been opening that spot up for. McMichael wasn't remotely ready and it was an historically bad crop of free agent centers. Vrana probably had some decent value, but if we're playing the hindsight game who knows if his drug problems were already widely known throughout the league by that point. Ever since that came out I've wondered whether that was why his value seemed so low in the Mantha trade.

Anyway, I don't have a great memory, but my recollection is that this board was super anti-Rierden by then and very happy to write off the flop against the Islanders as the team quitting on its coach and hating being separated from their families to play in a bubble with no fans. I don't remember any significant consensus about moving core pieces after Laviolette was hired.
Matches my recollection of the general sense here after the bubble 'loffs. To add, idk whether anyone was promoting moving Lars after the '19-'20 season. His #s and performance didn't fall off until '21-'22, but imo he provided value in '20.
 

Calicaps

NFA
Aug 3, 2006
22,041
14,523
Almost Canada
BMac has made clear he's got offers on the table. I think he's being smart to not negotiate against himself. He's put the offers out. Folks are waiting for better offers but not getting them. Someone will come back around looking to make a deal and at least one of Mantha and Loafnetsov, will almost certainly be moved.

As for the history...
In 18-19 they were fairly dominant all regular season, and even with the loss of their #2 D and #2 RW, they win the Carolina series in 6 if Holtby had been even remotely the guy he was the year before. There was no reason to think they would not still be strong the next year. Who ever thought Kempny would f*** himself up for good right as he was recovering from this injury.​
Agree that 19-20 was an embarrassment, but Mac had't intended for Sammie and Vanacek to be playing every game and he made some big moves after the loss: He fired his guy Reirden, brought in a respected vet coach, let Holtby, his Cup-winning, "The Save"-making 'tender go, and signed Lundquist, a HOF goalie, to serve as a backup to his promising youngsters.​
I literally can't remember much about 20-21 because that was COVID year 1. Anyway, his new coach had just started and, despite having no training camp, playing with no fans, and all the rest of the COVID stuff, the team but was second in the conference that year and had looked good. There was reason to believe that they'd be better in a normal year.​
I noted before that while they were WC2 in 21-22, they didn't just squeak in; they were 20ish points ahead of the next Eastern Conference team and Kuzy was playing well. All this despite Lundquist having an irreparable setback and having 2 young goalies. So while yes it was puncher's chance, and you could argue that Mac should've blown it up then, his coach had 1 year left and they'd had Florida on the ropes in that series and looked like they could contend but blew it. Plus with Nick going in for a surgery that no one comes back from, Mac may have thought he'd have some cap room to play with.​
So he gave it one more year, while also bringing in some young blood in Strome, Brown, and Milano and upgraded not one but 2 goaltenders. And then every f***ing thing went wrong: Kuzy decided to suck again. One key--and one planned key--guy blew out their knees practically on day 1. Nick's surgery went well enough to convince him he could come back and play. Carlson got his head blown off. Ovie's dad died. I mean... Those are all things that had nothing to do with age and just screwed the team at every turn.​
And even though he could have said, well, last year was just bad luck and we're gonna run it back and expect better, he has not done that. He traded his UFAs and collected assets and youth (Sandin). He brought in arguably the most coveted young coach in the league, and with term. He has offers pending to shake up his top 6. He drafted a stud at #8. His pick from '22 is looking like a steal. And he's got a bunch of young guys who just won an AHL championship and are gonna show up at rookie/training camp hungry for a shot.​
So you can call it excuses, but the fact is Mac has identified weaknesses every year and made moves to address them even with a flat cap. And he's done it while honoring the greatest player(s) and roster this franchise ever had and supporting Ovie's pursuit of 895. You can surely debate the moves themselves, but suggesting he's been asleep at the wheel, or that there was a clear point where he should have blown it up, is just silly.

tl:dr: GMBM has and continues to make moves to improve the team. You can argue whether they've been the right moves, but there's no point in the story to date before this season where the team was obviously bad and needed a major overhaul.

EDITS: I conflated some stuff. Now fixed.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad