GDT: 2023-24 season game 25 LA Kings vs New York Rangers @4:00pm 12/10/23

[Raccoon Jesus]

Not a surprising outcome. The Rangers play a hard game and don't give up much ice, and the Kings will not impose their will against teams like the Rangers. Quick was good. Congratulations to him on what I am sure was a satisfying win.

And this is part of a worrying trend worth keeping an eye on.

Kings cave at the slightest bit of adversity and STILL keep losing to true contenders.

The VGK game was great. Otherwise, they beat Florida while the Panthers were on a cross-country 3-in-4, and Avs the same but the last game. Otherwise they've been whooping a bunch of nobodies and losing to anyone that counts the moment the odds aren't extremely in their favor re: health, travel, rest.

Winnipeg game should be interesting, how they respond now is important, and the several games after that are must-wins but also games in which to get their habits straight and relatively consistent, not like the shitshows f***ing around in MTL and CBJ and blowing it in NYI.

 

[Sol]

Not gonna bother reading through all the comments but if people are trying to shit on Kopitar go check yourself.

First ballot HOF , leads the team in scoring again at age 50, go shit on someone else.

I’d be surprised anyone would be blaming Kopitar when PLD has made himself the personal punching bag of the entire fanbase.

 

[Choralone]

Yeah, I don't think anyone was dogging Kopitar (except Kurillo, probably) - someone made the comparison of Kopitar to PLD for career so far and it sort of galloped off in a weird direction with the subsequent comment chain.

And to clarify my comment from earlier, I don't like using dollars on a contract to criticize a player - it depends where we are in the contract, why they might have fetched a premium, etc. I'd need a spreadsheet with contract dollars and depreciation to compare how much I liked a player's game if I baked the dollars in.

Simple bottom line: PLD isn't producing so far based on talent and opportunities (forget the money) I am patiently awaiting for him to do better but not apologizing for him or excusing him. I also expect (and hope) that Blake and crew, as professionals, have privileged insight as to why he was a good buy at his price and didn't just throw a Hail Mary. And no matter how good the regular season, T Mac has to go if this team can't get out of the first round. Blake's ruthlessness - the same one that gave Quick the boot - has to kick in, here.

 

[DyslexicTom]

Yeah, I don't think anyone was dogging Kopitar (except Kurillo, probably) - someone made the comparison of Kopitar to PLD for career so far and it sort of galloped off in a weird direction with the subsequent comment chain.

And to clarify my comment from earlier, I don't like using dollars on a contract to criticize a player - it depends where we are in the contract, why they might have fetched a premium, etc. I'd need a spreadsheet with contract dollars and depreciation to compare how much I liked a player's game if I baked the dollars in.

Simple bottom line: PLD isn't producing so far based on talent and opportunities (forget the money) I am patiently awaiting for him to do better but not apologizing for him or excusing him. I also expect (and hope) that Blake and crew, as professionals, have privileged insight as to why he was a good buy at his price and didn't just throw a Hail Mary. And no matter how good the regular season, T Mac has to go if this team can't get out of the first round. Blake's ruthlessness - the same one that gave Quick the boot - has to kick in, here.

I mean, the dude is playing on the third line and not dangerous enough to draw the hard match ups. I think at this point it is fair to start demanding more out of him.

 

[LAKings88]

It would be nice if PLD starts chipping in more. He is paid to do so.

I don’t see his game as terrible tho.

I’m not a huge PLD cheerleader. I think some of the hate is for who he got traded for as well.

Some of the plays he makes are actually pretty good. He seems a bit snake bit.I like Grundstrom but he is a bit streaky and has never been a consistent top 6-9 guy.

Lafferiere is a really good player and he’ll figure it out eventually but he is still adjusting to the NHL. I’ve seen PLD set them up multiple times. It’s not like he is invisible.

His game has dipped but LA hasn’t really hasn’t shown a 60 minute effort since the road trip began.

Fiala is a difficult guy to play off of when you are a driver or set up man. He doesn’t play on Kopi’s wing for a reason too.

 

[Kudelski37]

PLD has 38 points this calendar year including playoffs (66 games). The struggle didn't start in LA...or with his current linemates.

He had the least TOI of the Kings centers on Sunday despite Lizotte just coming back from injury and Danault missing shifts after taking a puck to the face. He is going to have a hard time snapping out of this funk with reduced playing time.

 

[johnjm22]

delete

 

[chris kontos]

8.5X8

 

[Sol]

It would be nice if PLD starts chipping in more. He is paid to do so.

I don’t see his game as terrible tho.

I’m not a huge PLD cheerleader. I think some of the hate is for who he got traded for as well.

Some of the plays he makes are actually pretty good. He seems a bit snake bit.I like Grundstrom but he is a bit streaky and has never been a consistent top 6-9 guy.

Lafferiere is a really good player and he’ll figure it out eventually but he is still adjusting to the NHL. I’ve seen PLD set them up multiple times. It’s not like he is invisible.

His game has dipped but LA hasn’t really hasn’t shown a 60 minute effort since the road trip began.

Fiala is a difficult guy to play off of when you are a driver or set up man. He doesn’t play on Kopi’s wing for a reason too.

When you get 8.5 million it stops becoming about your linemates.

 

[Eagle Fang]

When you get 8.5 million it stops becoming about your linemates.

While true to an extent, it's not something that can be dismissed. Line mates do matter. What kind of numbers would Kopitar put up centering Grundstrom and Laferriere? What kind of numbers would PLD put up centering Byfield and Kempe... one could reasonably argue more than the 3 pts in his last 10 games.

I fully understand the logic and a lot of it is on PLD himself, but how reasonable is it to think PLD will score at a 60pt pace centering wingers with a combined 41 career goals and neither of which have scored more than 20 pts in a season?

And I understand Laferriere is a rookie, but it's not like he was some highly touted offensive prospect. Most would agree that while he's played admirably, some time in ONT to refine his game wouldn't be a bad thing.

I don't recall exactly when PLD's line got switched up, but he started with Fiala, Laferriere and eventually Kaliyev. He scored 7 points in his first 12 games. He's been with Laferriere and Grundstrom for however long and has 3 points in his last 12.

Thinking just because PLD signed an 8.5 million dollar contract is all of a sudden going to make him produce like you'd expect an 8.5 million dollar player too is akin to putting lipstick on a pig.

Not trying to defend or justify PLD's play. But as I mentioned previously, he doesn't seem like a player who can carry a line. He's a very good complimentary player when paired with other offensive players. His contract is on Blake.

 

[King'sPawn]

While true to an extent, it's not something that can be dismissed. Line mates do matter. What kind of numbers would Kopitar put up centering Grundstrom and Laferriere? What kind of numbers would PLD put up centering Byfield and Kempe... one could reasonably argue more than the 3 pts in his last 10 games.

Kopitar spent stretches playing with virtually every player on the lineup, including Dwight King.

 

[tny760]

While true to an extent, it's not something that can be dismissed. Line mates do matter. What kind of numbers would Kopitar put up centering Grundstrom and Laferriere?

well, it would certainly be a good defensive line, PLD doesn't even have that going for him

 

[Eagle Fang]

Kopitar spent stretches playing with virtually every player on the lineup, including Dwight King.

And what were his numbers? Honestly asking as I have no idea how to look that up, but I can't imagine they were anything impressive. It certainly didn't last long as a combo and over a full season this board would not be happy about that.

My only point is that regardless of what Blake signed PLD too, it doesn't magically transform him into a player he is not. People are complaining about his production, but what is a reasonable expectation given who he is playing with. 60 pts seems to be the baseline number for him. Is it fair to think he'll score at a .75 ppg pace with a very good 4th line player and a rookie?

Again, it's important to note than I'm not championing PLD. I hated the trade when it happened and that contract made it even worse. But LA is stuck with him now. For better or worse, getting him going is paramount to LA's success and he's not a player to stick with his current line mates and think it's maximizing the asset.

Yes it's unfair, undeserved and gross, but the trade was made, the contract signed and LA is stuck with him.

 

[King'sPawn]

And what were his numbers? Honestly asking as I have no idea how to look that up, but I can't imagine they were anything impressive. It certainly didn't last long as a combo and over a full season this board would not be happy about that.

Don't have a list of how many games he played on each line, especially with how Kopitar gets shuffled around in special teams. But you can look at his scoring log, year by year, like this: Anže Kopitar 2006-07 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

In his rookie year, he was putting up points with even Brian Willsie and Sean Avery.

The point is that Kopitar responded when put with "hard-working" players while, again, playing on the PK and getting hard minutes.

PLD has powerplay time and the second best favorable offensive deployments (faceoffs in offensive zone) at 61%. Almost 2 out of 3 times he starts his shift in the other team's zone. For comparison, Danault gets 46% offensive zone starts.

 

[Fishhead]

Kopitar spent stretches playing with virtually every player on the lineup, including Dwight King.

I remember that, Sutter as his finest.

Dwight King was better than both Grundy and Laf, though. As was Sean Avery. Willsie? He mostly sucked, only was signed because he was with a good Avalanche team and had a good season with the Capitals.

I still think Laf could use some AHL time. We rough up JAD around here, and rightfully so, but even his points/60 are almost double what Laf's are. He's literally where offense goes to die. And Grundstrom is our third least productive forward, just barely beating out Lewis.

Does PLD need to step it up? Abso-f***ing-lutely. Does he play with two of our 3 most unproductive forwards? Undoubtedly.

 

[Eagle Fang]

Don't have a list of how many games he played on each line, especially with how Kopitar gets shuffled around in special teams. But you can look at his scoring log, year by year, like this: Anže Kopitar 2006-07 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

In his rookie year, he was putting up points with even Brian Willsie and Sean Avery.

The point is that Kopitar responded when put with "hard-working" players while, again, playing on the PK and getting hard minutes.

PLD has powerplay time and the second best favorable offensive deployments (faceoffs in offensive zone) at 61%. Almost 2 out of 3 times he starts his shift in the other team's zone. For comparison, Danault gets 46% offensive zone starts.

Certainly all good points and I really hate to sound like I'm arguing against it.

PLD also has points with Grundstrom and Laferriere. But over the course of a full season, what is the realistic expectation. If Kopitar played a full season with Avery, Cowan or King, what would his numbers look like after 80 games?

I understand the critcisms of PLD, I honestly do and I share many of them.

He gets the cushy deployments, but it's with players not exactly known for offense. I'd almost wager it has more do with TMac's lack of trust in that line vs an expectation of them actually doing something with that deployment other than not getting scored on.

I fully acknowledge the PP production though and there is nothing that can be argued against that. Moore, Danault and Kaliyev all produce on that unit.

My point of contention is purely with people saying he should be producing more because he's being paid 8.5 million dollars.

He's a 8.5 million dollar player only because our GM was stupid enough to offer it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

When people are like "but Jarret Stoll had Dwight King!" you know we've reached the ultimate level of excuses for PLD.

Come on folks. listen to yourselves.

Edit: to elaborate, Dwight Kings best season, which was 15-15-30, was mostly spent next to Kopitar.

Grundstrom's current season is on pace for 23-30, spent next to Lizotte and PLD.

He's got to save himself.

 

[Sol]

I think it’s so weird to call Laf unproductive. He might not be showing up in the score sheet but he’s trying hard every game for a first year player as well. PLDs issue isn’t Lafreniere, however Lafreniere issue is PLD. I bet you he’d be putting up more points away from PLD.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Certainly all good points and I really hate to sound like I'm arguing against it.

PLD also has points with Grundstrom and Laferriere. But over the course of a full season, what is the realistic expectation. If Kopitar played a full season with Avery, Cowan or King, what would his numbers look like after 80 games?

I understand the critcisms of PLD, I honestly do and I share many of them.

He gets the cushy deployments, but it's with players not exactly known for offense. I'd almost wager it has more do with TMac's lack of trust in that line vs an expectation of them actually doing something with that deployment other than not getting scored on.

I fully acknowledge the PP production though and there is nothing that can be argued against that. Moore, Danault and Kaliyev all produce on that unit.

My point of contention is purely with people saying he should be producing more because he's being paid 8.5 million dollars.

He's a 8.5 million dollar player only because our GM was stupid enough to offer it.

Kopitar played large parts of two seasons with Dwight King and was right along his career averages despite playing HARD minutes not PLD's cushy minutes.

What do people get out of making so many alibis for this guy?

Jarret Stoll was the King-Stoll-Lewis thing. Grunstrom-Laf are already more productive than those guys. Stoll was better defensively and getting paid half as much while putting up the same production as current PLD.

Seriously this isn't ancient history.

 

[Kudelski37]

I'm beginning to wonder which side wanted the the first year of PLD's contract to be the only year free of trade restrictions. Was PLD surprised the Canadians would not trade much for him so he settled for LA with the idea he could force a trade to MTL after tanking his value?

As for PLD's wingers, has any winger played better on his wing when compared to playing with Danault or Lizotte? I think he has earned his wingers. He might earn a press box seat too.

 

[bland]

When Anze lost the plot and started slipping into a perimeter game Murray would line him up with Simmonds and Richardson to re-engage with a more direct game. Later years, though less frequently, Sutter would do the same with Dwight King.

Dubois started the year with the least direct and most creative maverick on the roster in Fiala, which disappointingly didn't work. Kaliyev deferred to both and was swapped out earlier. In response to his lack of engagement, McLellan tried something similar in putting Dubois with this team's two most direct players in Laferriere and Grundstrom.

The effect? It cooled Grundstrom off.

Dubois has been a terrible disappointment thus far, and this is from a fan who expected him to play poorly. He better find his big boy pants very soon because Kopitar has already lost a step from October and the team is going to need even more from its middle six depth than it has already received if it wants to retain a home ice position in the first round.

 

[Eagle Fang]

Kopitar played large parts of two seasons with Dwight King and was right along his career averages despite playing HARD minutes not PLD's cushy minutes.

What do people get out of making so many alibis for this guy?

Jarret Stoll was the King-Stoll-Lewis thing. Grunstrom-Laf are already more productive than those guys. Stoll was better defensively and getting paid half as much while putting up the same production as current PLD.

Seriously this isn't ancient history.

From 2011-12 to 2014-15 (almost 4 seasons), Kopitar and King teamed up for a total of 14 points in the regular season. I don't know how many actual games they played together, but if it's "large parts", I don't see how that makes the point.

And what alibi am I making? My primary point in all of my posts regarding PLD is targeted at people saying he's paid 8.5 million dollars but isn't producing like it. Well no kidding. The guy isn't worth 8.5 million to begin with.

He's an offensive player who has never shown the ability to carry a line. He's a good complimentary player when paired with other talented offensive players.

Yet given that, people are upset because he's not at a 60pt pace playing with 2 players who have a combined lower ppg career avearge than Dwight King?

Put another way, he scored 60+ points playing with Connor, Scheifele and Ehlers. Now he's suppose to produce at that pace with Grundstrom and Laferriere.....

I think I posted this earlier, but PLD's first 12 games he had 7 points playing with a mix of Fiala, Kaliyev and Laferriere. His last 12 games, mostly with Grundstrom and Laferriere, it's 3 points.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

From 2011-12 to 2014-15 (almost 4 seasons), Kopitar and King teamed up for a total of 14 points in the regular season. I don't know how many actual games they played together, but if it's "large parts", I don't see how that makes the point.

And what alibi am I making? My primary point in all of my posts regarding PLD is targeted at people saying he's paid 8.5 million dollars but isn't producing like it. Well no kidding. The guy isn't worth 8.5 million to begin with.

He's an offensive player who has never shown the ability to carry a line. He's a good complimentary player when paired with other talented offensive players.

Yet given that, people are upset because he's not at a 60pt pace playing with 2 players who have a combined lower ppg career avearge than Dwight King?

Put another way, he scored 60+ points playing with Connor, Scheifele and Ehlers. Now he's suppose to produce at that pace with Grundstrom and Laferriere.....

I think I posted this earlier, but PLD's first 12 games he had 7 points playing with a mix of Fiala, Kaliyev and Laferriere. His last 12 games, mostly with Grundstrom and Laferriere, it's 3 points.

Just help me understand the point of arguing against it. Because you were the one who wondered aloud what Kopitar would do with lesser linemates and the answer was "the exact same thing he's always done" as if it pardons PLD doing less with less. You're absolutely right that it shouldn't be a comparison in the first place, but it sounds like you're excusing PLD by doing so by suggesting other guys see a drop in production as well and...they don't. Not notably.

It's not his fault he's paid so much.

It's not his fault he has these linemates.

Okay--what level of play is acceptable? Because right now it sounds like he has carte blanche to do whatever the f*** he wants in his softer-than-Colin-Miller minutes.

I'm not coming down on you at all but you're beating around the bush here.

 

[Sol]

It’s kinda scary how mediocre the Kings have played against good teams. Long were the days we lost to the worst and beat the best. Dislike this variation a lot.

 

[bland]

If Dubois were a self-starter it wouldn't matter who his linemates are at all. But he is a very, very expensive passenger and has been one since drafted.

Its astonishing that he was given $68 million over 8 years considering his actual worth is little more than half that total.

He is being paid early for future production. There is a whole lot of maturation that will need to take place to justify that commitment.